Seeking Messiah

[talitim]

I was raised a protestant, converted to Judaism, then converted to Catholicism. I came out of the Catholic church because of what Jesus said to the pharisees in Matthew 15, the catholics make unto themselves laws no man can follow. I want to be a person who follows Messiah, but can't find where I belong.
I know that I won't find a church I agree totally with, but am looking for the closest to the early Church as I can find. This leads me to the MJAA and UMJA. I want to find where Ha-shem has called me to be.
The major problems I am having is that I believe in the literal Communion as pointed to in John 5. All the churches that believe that way baptize infants, which is pointless. I believe every word of the three creeds (athanasius, nicene, and apostles) I believe that scripture is the word of the Father with out error. I believe that Yshua is the Word of the Father as prescribed in John 1.
Since I was a converted Chasid at one point, should I look to messianic Judaism as a Messianic goyim, or am I just going to find more unanswered questions. I really don't know where to go, who to turn to for advice.
Don't be afraid for my soul, I am saved, I read the scriptures daily, and pray much. I just can't find a community of believers where I belong. Pray for me

 

[ChavaK]

May I ask what you mean by "I was a converted Chasid at one point"?
I am not sure I understand.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I was raised a protestant, converted to Judaism, then converted to Catholicism. I came out of the Catholic church because of what Jesus said to the pharisees in Matthew 15, the catholics make unto themselves laws no man can follow. I want to be a person who follows Messiah, but can't find where I belong.

I know that I won't find a church I agree totally with, but am looking for the closest to the early Church as I can find. This leads me to the MJAA and UMJA. I want to find where Ha-shem has called me to be.

The major problems I am having is that I believe in the literal Communion as pointed to in John 5. All the churches that believe that way baptize infants, which is pointless. I believe every word of the three creeds (athanasius, nicene, and apostles) I believe that scripture is the word of the Father with out error. I believe that Yshua is the Word of the Father as prescribed in John 1.

Since I was a converted Chasid at one point, should I look to messianic Judaism as a Messianic goyim, or am I just going to find more unanswered questions. I really don't know where to go, who to turn to for advice.

Don't be afraid for my soul, I am saved, I read the scriptures daily, and pray much. I just can't find a community of believers where I belong. Pray for me

If I may ask, when you discuss the issue of converting once to Chasid, what was your experience...and are there things you still hold to from that paticular frame of thought? Additionally, what specific questions are you looking for answers for? If asking on MJism, are you investigating any MJish fellowships near you which may be MJAA or UMJC?

In regards to the Communion subject being literal, I can definately relate sicne many have often noted the many ways in which communion is taken to simply be symbolism as opposed to having a greater reality. The concept of Real (literal ) Prescence is always a multi-faceted issue in light of how many concepts do take on a supernatural reality. Personally, I tend to lean toward those in MJism who support Consubstantiation ( the idea that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other )....and as another noted, “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337). Of course, I can understand differing reasons as to why others may not accept it (as the Consubstantian view alongside Literal Prescence/Real prescence are both based on an ultra-literal interpretation of Scripture that can lead to some issues textually if always taking that approach with other passages)---but on some things, it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore than it's somehow a problem to believe that we are united/made spiritually one with Christ as His Bride (Ephesians 5) or that we're supernaturally His Body (I Corinthians 12). .....and I think what helps to simplify alot of things is remembering that ultimately, according to I Corinthians 11, the reality is that Communion/the Lord's Supper was always to be taken seriously since being flippant toward it brought about the judgement of the Lord upon others (more discussed here in #38 ).

For those who are Hebrew Catholics, it has always been interesting considering a Jewish perspective on the ways Jewish mysticism on communion developed and the ways that it can connect with the scriptures....and it is also interesting when examining how many Jewish believers have often noted how there was always a mystical element in Communion that was never meant to be removed or rationalized to simple symbolism (more discussed here in #37 #38 and #38 /#57 ) ----one of the reasons many tend to go into liturgical circles such as Catholicism (or Orthodoxy) if coming out of camps such as Chasidism or Chasidic Judaism.....unless they are apart of Messianic Jewish fellowships that already lean toward the mystical side of things already. If interested, there's an excellent book on the issue entitled Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper by Brant Pitre (as seen here, here and here) that may bless you.


Lifting you up and praying you'd find the community you're searching for, as it's always a journey and the Lord is always walking with us

 

[Qnts2]

I was raised a protestant, converted to Judaism, then converted to Catholicism. I came out of the Catholic church because of what Jesus said to the pharisees in Matthew 15, the catholics make unto themselves laws no man can follow. I want to be a person who follows Messiah, but can't find where I belong.
I know that I won't find a church I agree totally with, but am looking for the closest to the early Church as I can find. This leads me to the MJAA and UMJA. I want to find where Ha-shem has called me to be.
The major problems I am having is that I believe in the literal Communion as pointed to in John 5. All the churches that believe that way baptize infants, which is pointless. I believe every word of the three creeds (athanasius, nicene, and apostles) I believe that scripture is the word of the Father with out error. I believe that Yshua is the Word of the Father as prescribed in John 1.
Since I was a converted Chasid at one point, should I look to messianic Judaism as a Messianic goyim, or am I just going to find more unanswered questions. I really don't know where to go, who to turn to for advice.
Don't be afraid for my soul, I am saved, I read the scriptures daily, and pray much. I just can't find a community of believers where I belong. Pray for me

When you say literal communion, do you mean transubstantiation or consubstantiation?

The bread becomes literally the body and the wine becomes literally the blood?

or

The bread is bread and the wine is wine but there is a physical presence in both.

Or the bread is bread and the wine is wine and there is a spiritual presence in both?

 

[talitim]

As to the question of literal communion I believe what the Bible says it is. I will not diminish the mystery by calling it transubstantiation or con substantiation. I do know that in John 5 they left excepth the twelve who were confuzed by the disertation of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. I also from a chasidic perspective believe that He is the affikhomehn mentioned in the jewish liturgies. The eastern Chasids call thw messiah who will come a hidden archetype of the affikhomehn.

Now to my Chasidic experience. We taught that the yoaef gisburg messiah figure was a blatant blasphemy. We studied practical mysticism rather than the Babylonian mumbo jumbo practised by the Lubavitch communities. Our Rabbie was levi yinsach i. 1771 who taught prayer was the inward trying to reach the divine. We didn't know messiah. We taught the literal creation rather than thw shattered glass theory. We taught an eternal hell for non torah observant jews and goyim who did not follow the holy 7 laws of Noach. The base place of this aect of judaism as practiced by our group was believed to be the qumeron province. Our instruction was done by Rav issac carmichael an irish catholic turned Orthodox Jew. There is far more we taught. Daily immersion was typical for us living near the community in nashville tn.

Hth

 

[Qnts2]

Ok, I'm still not quite sure how you see communion, but I am guessing you do see a literalness in that the flesh and blood is physically present.

Messianic Judaism views that statement as symbolic. Since all of the traditional foods (charoses, maror, matzo, wine, etc) are symbolic, we believe that Yeshua was dealing with their symbolic meaning as pointing to Him. And yes, Messianic Judaism sees the afikomen as symbolic of the Messiah and the Messiah being broken and is the matzo used when Yeshua called it His body.

I did a quick internet search and can not find a church which believes in the literal presense but not baptizing babies. The two seem to go hand in hand in liturgical churches.

As to the question of literal communion I believe what the Bible says it is. I will not diminish the mystery by calling it transubstantiation or con substantiation. I do know that in John 5 they left excepth the twelve who were confuzed by the disertation of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. I also from a chasidic perspective believe that He is the affikhomehn mentioned in the jewish liturgies. The eastern Chasids call thw messiah who will come a hidden archetype of the affikhomehn.

Now to my Chasidic experience. We taught that the yoaef gisburg messiah figure was a blatant blasphemy. We studied practical mysticism rather than the Babylonian mumbo jumbo practised by the Lubavitch communities. Our Rabbie was levi yinsach i. 1771 who taught prayer was the inward trying to reach the divine. We didn't know messiah. We taught the literal creation rather than thw shattered glass theory. We taught an eternal hell for non torah observant jews and goyim who did not follow the holy 7 laws of Noach. The base place of this aect of judaism as practiced by our group was believed to be the qumeron province. Our instruction was done by Rav issac carmichael an irish catholic turned Orthodox Jew. There is far more we taught. Daily immersion was typical for us living near the community in nashville tn.

Hth

 

[visionary]

If I may ask, when you discuss the issue of converting once to Chasid, what was your experience...and are there things you still hold to from that paticular frame of thought? Additionally, what specific questions are you looking for answers for? If asking on MJism, are you investigating any MJish fellowships near you which may be MJAA or UMJC?

In regards to the Communion subject being literal, I can definately relate sicne many have often noted the many ways in which communion is taken to simply be symbolism as opposed to having a greater reality. The concept of Real (literal ) Prescence is always a multi-faceted issue in light of how many concepts do take on a supernatural reality. Personally, I tend to lean toward those in MJism who support Consubstantiation ( the idea that in the communion, the body and blood of Christ, and the bread and wine, coexist in union with each other )....and as another noted, “Luther illustrated it by the analogy of the iron put into the fire whereby both fire and iron are united in the red-hot iron and yet each continues unchanged” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, F.L. Cross, Ed., London: Oxford, 1958, p. 337). Of course, I can understand differing reasons as to why others may not accept it (as the Consubstantian view alongside Literal Prescence/Real prescence are both based on an ultra-literal interpretation of Scripture that can lead to some issues textually if always taking that approach with other passages)---but on some things, it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore than it's somehow a problem to believe that we are united/made spiritually one with Christ as His Bride (Ephesians 5) or that we're supernaturally His Body (I Corinthians 12). .....and I think what helps to simplify alot of things is remembering that ultimately, according to I Corinthians 11, the reality is that Communion/the Lord's Supper was always to be taken seriously since being flippant toward it brought about the judgement of the Lord upon others (more discussed here in #38 ).

For those who are Hebrew Catholics, it has always been interesting considering a Jewish perspective on the ways Jewish mysticism on communion developed and the ways that it can connect with the scriptures....and it is also interesting when examining how many Jewish believers have often noted how there was always a mystical element in Communion that was never meant to be removed or rationalized to simple symbolism (more discussed here in #37 #38 and #38 /#57 ) ----one of the reasons many tend to go into liturgical circles such as Catholicism (or Orthodoxy) if coming out of camps such as Chasidism or Chasidic Judaism.....unless they are apart of Messianic Jewish fellowships that already lean toward the mystical side of things already. If interested, there's an excellent book on the issue entitled Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist: Unlocking the Secrets of the Last Supper by Brant Pitre (as seen here, here and here) that may bless you.


Lifting you up and praying you'd find the community you're searching for, as it's always a journey and the Lord is always walking with us

I don't think this is a fixed position but a point of declaring where he is at today... as light shines upon his heart, he comes closer to Him whom he seeks with all his heart. ... And this is a great place to learn and grow...

 

[yedida]

I was raised a protestant, converted to Judaism, then converted to Catholicism. I came out of the Catholic church because of what Jesus said to the pharisees in Matthew 15, the catholics make unto themselves laws no man can follow. I want to be a person who follows Messiah, but can't find where I belong.
I know that I won't find a church I agree totally with, but am looking for the closest to the early Church as I can find. This leads me to the MJAA and UMJA. I want to find where Ha-shem has called me to be.
The major problems I am having is that I believe in the literal Communion as pointed to in John 5. All the churches that believe that way baptize infants, which is pointless. I believe every word of the three creeds (athanasius, nicene, and apostles) I believe that scripture is the word of the Father with out error. I believe that Yshua is the Word of the Father as prescribed in John 1.
Since I was a converted Chasid at one point, should I look to messianic Judaism as a Messianic goyim, or am I just going to find more unanswered questions. I really don't know where to go, who to turn to for advice.
Don't be afraid for my soul, I am saved, I read the scriptures daily, and pray much. I just can't find a community of believers where I belong. Pray for me

Other than your views on the communion you might just fit in with us for we are an outcast group of people. Neither the Christians nor the Jews, as a whole, really understand or accept us. Of course, there are some Christians and some Jews who embrace us (and we, them) but mostly they either think we've lost our minds or are trying to steal their identities (which neither is true). We're just a group of people, Jews and gentiles, trying to live as God would have us to live. Nothing crazy or malicious in that at all.
We worship Hashem, adore Yeshua and love to study His word.
If you have any questions, just ask away. There are plenty of people here who may be able to help you see where you fit in in all of this.

 

[Avodat]

I was raised a protestant, converted to Judaism, then converted to Catholicism. I came out of the Catholic church because of what Jesus said to the pharisees in Matthew 15, the catholics make unto themselves laws no man can follow. I want to be a person who follows Messiah, but can't find where I belong.
I know that I won't find a church I agree totally with, but am looking for the closest to the early Church as I can find. This leads me to the MJAA and UMJA. I want to find where Ha-shem has called me to be.
The major problems I am having is that I believe in the literal Communion as pointed to in John 5. All the churches that believe that way baptize infants, which is pointless. I believe every word of the three creeds (athanasius, nicene, and apostles) I believe that scripture is the word of the Father with out error. I believe that Yshua is the Word of the Father as prescribed in John 1.
Since I was a converted Chasid at one point, should I look to messianic Judaism as a Messianic goyim, or am I just going to find more unanswered questions. I really don't know where to go, who to turn to for advice.
Don't be afraid for my soul, I am saved, I read the scriptures daily, and pray much. I just can't find a community of believers where I belong. Pray for me

I don't know many people who have covered the range of Abrahamic faith as you have - a consequence of that is your confusion and continuing search for 'home'. I find your search route to be interesting - Protestant, Chabadism, Catholicism and now Messianic Judaism is being explored. May I ask which part of the Protestant Church you went to? And was it fundamentalist, evangelical or liberal. Was it a denomination or just a sort of one-man-band affair?

I find the jump from the Protestant Church to Chabad to be quite a move, but then, on the other hand, Paul Levertoff (directly related to the founder of the Chabad movement) took the same root back in the 1800's and became a Church of England Vicar who advanced the Messianic movement quite a long way and is seen as one of the founders of the modern movement.

I can understand better your jump from Chabad to Catholic and believe that the Messianic Movement is probably where you need to be at the moment, standing as we do between two giants of Abrahamic faith.

As far as Communion is concerned you need not worry. Nowadays there are many in Protestantism who believe that the elements are the very blood and body of Christ and there are many in the Catholic Church who see them only as symbols of the body and blood of Christ (but would never confess to it officially). I've even known a Catholic Priest administer Communion in a Protestant Church! The barriers have been falling, but the present Pope is turning back the clock on lots of things so the pendulum will, no doubt, go way back to early Catholic teaching on this. In the Messianic Movement it is either / or - depends which congregation you join with. I would have thought your Chabad background might be a more defining consideration in finding a Messianic congregation than your own Church history.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't think this is a fixed position but a point of declaring where he is at today... as light shines upon his heart, he comes closer to Him whom he seeks with all his heart. ... And this is a great place to learn and grow...

Wasn't thinking anything said was a fixed position, vis. Where someone is at is where someone is at, but on the same token where people choose to be is their own choice. And the experiences one may grow up with/share can never be changed since what happened happens

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As to the question of literal communion I believe what the Bible says it is. I will not diminish the mystery by calling it transubstantiation or con substantiation.

Indeed, as with many things within the scriptures, there are mysteries (Romans 16:24-26, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 , Ephesians 1:8-10, Ephesians 3:2-4, Colossians 1:25-27, Colossians 2:1-3, 1 Timothy 3:15-16, etc ) that can sometimes lose their impact when certain terms can be used to make it into a bit of a formula....for somethings were not meant to be explained fully (be it the Trinity or Incarnation/Virgin Birth or Creation itself ). Although terms can help sometimes in trying to describe things in limited ways, IMHO....

I do know that in John 5 they left excepth the twelve who were confuzed by the disertation of eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

There is something to be said on how the literal dynamic does have limitations, as it was not as if Messiah was supporting cannibalism (something which the early body of believers was often accused of when it came to their sharing how they partook of the body/blood of Christ). But there was indeed a literal union

I also from a chasidic perspective believe that He is the affikhomehn mentioned in the jewish liturgies.

Alot within the Christian world would be of the same mindset..and have been (especially the Hebrew Catholics), as it relates to the concept of Christ being the Bread of Heaven and the Life-Giving Manna in a Supernatural sense that all men are to partake of. You'd fit in rather well in alot of circles in some of the points you're bringing up

The eastern Chasids call thw messiah who will come a hidden archetype of the affikhomehn.

That has always been a rather fascinating dynamic in regards Now to my Chasidic experience.

We taught that the yoaef gisburg messiah figure was a blatant blasphemy. We studied practical mysticism rather than the Babylonian mumbo jumbo practised by the Lubavitch communities. Our Rabbie was levi yinsach i. 1771 who taught prayer was the inward trying to reach the divine. We didn't know messiah.

Some of the ways Lubavitch communities developed were interesting to consider since it seemed they had some valid points, but got lost in some of the mysticism dynamics. The Messiah was the one who was always meant to bring completion.

We taught the literal creation rather than thw shattered glass theory.

Creation is one of those issues which you'll find a myriad of answers and perspectives within Messianic Judaism/Jewish Christianity, with many having both a literal and allegorical/figurative perspective.

We taught an eternal hell for non torah observant jews and goyim who did not follow the holy 7 laws of Noach.

Most of Messianic Judaism teaches the same type of dynamics found in Chasdic circles, in regards to the concept of the Noahide concept/laws based in Genesis 9 and has done so for a long time. The same goes for the views of Hell being eternal.

The base place of this aect of judaism as practiced by our group was believed to be the qumeron province. Our instruction was done by Rav issac carmichael an irish catholic turned Orthodox Jew. There is far more we taught. Daily immersion was typical for us living near the community in nashville tn.

Hth

Very detailed and intricate history. Thanks for sharing...

 

[talitim]

Thank you. For all the comments. I am going on sabbath to check the local messianic congregation. The Rav is Howard Tockman of Dayton Ohio.

As far as the congregations i have. Een to. I have been in fundamentalist baptist Churches and evangelical community churches. Pentecostal and holiness churches. It seems that grace is replaced by rules and cuatoms that cannot be found in scripture and further are not grounded in any sound tradition.
Rav Howard I have known since the early nineties and he seems to be well versed in all thi.gs scripture.

 

[Avodat]

Thank you. For all the comments. I am going on sabbath to check the local messianic congregation. The Rav is Howard Tockman of Dayton Ohio.

As far as the congregations i have. Een to. I have been in fundamentalist baptist Churches and evangelical community churches. Pentecostal and holiness churches. It seems that grace is replaced by rules and cuatoms that cannot be found in scripture and further are not grounded in any sound tradition.
Rav Howard I have known since the early nineties and he seems to be well versed in all thi.gs scripture.

No problem I was interested to see your progression.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank you. For all the comments. I am going on sabbath to check the local messianic congregation. The Rav is Howard Tockman of Dayton Ohio.

As far as the congregations i have. Een to. I have been in fundamentalist baptist Churches and evangelical community churches. Pentecostal and holiness churches. It seems that grace is replaced by rules and cuatoms that cannot be found in scripture and further are not grounded in any sound tradition.
Rav Howard I have known since the early nineties and he seems to be well versed in all thi.gs scripture.

Praying that the time you have would be memorable as you progress in your discoveries

 

[yedida]

Thank you. For all the comments. I am going on sabbath to check the local messianic congregation. The Rav is Howard Tockman of Dayton Ohio.

As far as the congregations i have. Een to. I have been in fundamentalist baptist Churches and evangelical community churches. Pentecostal and holiness churches. It seems that grace is replaced by rules and cuatoms that cannot be found in scripture and further are not grounded in any sound tradition.
Rav Howard I have known since the early nineties and he seems to be well versed in all thi.gs scripture.

I attend a congregation in the Canton/Akron area, not sure how far Dayton is from that area though. Good that you have a place where you feel confident of the leader/teacher.

 

[talitim]

He has been around the religion block himself. So he knows the journey. He was raised a universalist and became an orthodox Jew finally making the Holy one head of his life submitting to yeshua and believing , as my hebrew catholic friends would say, beha av be hashem be ruach hakodesh. So I trust that he has insight.

I also would like to say if any one is interested in some raw music recording I am on reverbnation and facebook (Michael Ratliff )It isn't a good recording but you can get a listen to what I am writing. I hope I am ok by putting this info up there. I have 4 pieces but only one posted. The next piece I am recording as soon as I get the transliteration complete is the Avinu or our father in hebrew. Pray for me as I am still seeking messiah.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I also would like to say if any one is interested in some raw music recording I am on reverbnation and facebook (Michael Ratliff )It isn't a good recording but you can get a listen to what I am writing. I hope I am ok by putting this info up there. I have 4 pieces but only one posted. The next piece I am recording as soon as I get the transliteration complete is the Avinu or our father in hebrew. Pray for me as I am still seeking messiah.

Would love to hear sometime once you have the material ready...

 

[talitim]

Well well well. I have come to a synagogue that is very traditional and very Messianic. I was blessed to sing the mourners kaddish. I was even more blessed when the Rav told me how mu h everyone liked it.
I found the liturgy. We don't do communion so that doesn't become an issue. Peace

 

[ananda]

As far as the congregations i have. Een to. I have been in fundamentalist baptist Churches and evangelical community churches. Pentecostal and holiness churches. It seems that grace is replaced by rules and cuatoms that cannot be found in scripture and further are not grounded in any sound tradition.

I've been in your shoes - most of the mainstream Christian churches made YHWH's mitzvot of none effect by substituting them their own laws!

 

[ananda]

Well well well. I have come to a synagogue that is very traditional and very Messianic. I was blessed to sing the mourners kaddish. I was even more blessed when the Rav told me how mu h everyone liked it. I found the liturgy. We don't do communion so that doesn't become an issue. Peace

Glad to hear that you found a good messianic synagogue Please come back to share with us as to how it goes!