Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[dollarsbill]

Thank you Dollarsbill for bringing up those same 3 passages once again.

What, no comment? I agree, they cannot be disputed without getting ridiculous.

Now would you like to discuss these passages of scripture?
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

In the same Sermon on the Mount you will find this:

Matthew 5:29-30 (NASB)
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Timothew]

What, no comment? I agree, they cannot be disputed without getting ridiculous.

In the same Sermon on the Mount you will find this:

Matthew 5:29-30 (NASB)
29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

I know! The word translated "hell" is γέενναν. This doesn't help your case. Of course it is better to lose an eye or a hand than it is to lose your life in Gehenna.

I wonder why you would use Matt 5:30 to show that people exist alive in hell being tormented. Do you believe people's bodies go into hell to be tortured? Usually Eternal Tormentalists try to tell me that only a person's ghost or whatever goes to hell. Matt 5:30 really hurts your case if you take it literally, because that would mean that dead people's bodies literally return to life and then are tortured in hell. If you also take Like 16 into account, this means that there are living dead people bodily alive in Hell right now. This is a problem, scripturally, because Judgment Day has not yet arrived. The people whose bodies are being tormented in Hell today have arrived there without a trial!

________________________________________________________
Belief in Hell is not a requirement for eternal life in God's Kingdom.

 

[dollarsbill]

I know! The word translated "hell" is γέενναν. This doesn't help your case. Of course it is better to lose an eye or a hand than it is to lose your life in Gehenna.

The clear meaning is THE eternal fire.

Matthew 7:15-19 (NASB)
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

I wonder why you would use Matt 5:30 to show that people exist alive in hell being tormented. Do you believe people's bodies go into hell to be tortured?

You've been told this MANY times but here ya go again if you insist.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB)
22 "; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Usually Eternal Tormentalists try to tell me that only a person's ghost or whatever goes to hell. Matt 5:30 really hurts your case if you take it literally, because that would mean that dead people's bodies literally return to life and then are tortured in hell.

You didn't hear that from me.

If you also take Like 16 into account, this means that there are living dead people bodily alive in Hell right now. This is a problem, scripturally, because Judgment Day has not yet arrived. The people whose bodies are being tormented in Hell today have arrived there without a trial!

You think God doesn't know who the wicked are? The Judgment will be to openly reveal the good and evil that humans have done. Not to decide who is saved or not.

________________________________________________________
Belief in Hell is not a requirement for eternal life in God's Kingdom.[/QUOTE]

 

[he-man]

The clear meaning is THE eternal fire.
Matthew 7:15-19 (NASB)
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. You think God doesn't know who the wicked are? The Judgment will be to openly reveal the good and evil that humans have done. Not to decide who is saved or not.

Wow!
Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Psa 35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.
Psa 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.

 

[createdtoworship]

Thank you Dollarsbill for bringing up those same 3 passages once again.
Now would you like to discuss these passages of scripture?
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.


There are thousands of passages like these in Bible, Passages that say the lost are destroyed, and that they perish. In light of the staggering amount of biblical evidence for annihilationism and the abysmal lack of biblical evidence for eternal tormentalism, do you still expect me to go back and believe the lie of eternal tormentalism?

Death

The concept of “death,” or the state of being “dead,” is a prevailing theme in the New Testament. These terms are found collectively some 250 times. Though the use of the words may vary, depending upon the context, the underlying sense of “death” is that of “separation” —not “annihilation.”
Physical Death

The physical death process involves the separation of the human spirit or soul from the physical body. The death of Rachel, Jacob’s wife, was described as her “soul” departing from her “body” (Gen. 35:18). At the point of death, the body returns to the dust, but the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:6-7) —who will deal with it appropriately (Gen. 18:25).

The death of the body is biblically defined by the departure of the spirit (Jas. 2:26). Scholars have noted that for the “vast mass of mankind” death has never been viewed as nonexistence (J.S. Clemens, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1989, p. 181).
Spiritual Death

Spiritual death is the condition of being alienated from Jehovah. Since sin separates a person from God (Isa. 59:1-2), the state of being estranged from the Creator is depicted metaphorically as the person being dead. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that very “day” they died (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:8,23), i.e., they were separated from fellowship with the Lord (though other implications likely are involved as well; see 3:19).

Prior to their conversion, the Ephesian saints had been spiritually “dead” (Eph. 2:1), i.e., alienated from the Lord (2:12-13). It is possible to be “dead” spiritually while alive physically. Paul declared that the widow who devotes herself to pleasure is “dead,” even though she is alive (1 Tim. 5:6). Christ wrote a letter to the church in Sardis wherein he described a significant portion of these disciples as “dead” (Rev. 3:1), that is they had drifted from Christian fidelity.
The “Second Death”

The second death is an ultimate and eternal separation from God. The expression is found four times in the book of Revelation ( 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8). J.H. Thayer defined the “second death” as “the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell” (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 283).

This condition is characterized as the second death because it follows physical death; it is designated as death because it is the terminal separation from the Lord (Mt. 7:23; 25:41; 2 Thes. 1:9). Try substituting the term “annihilation” for “death” in the Revelation passages and see what sort of sense it makes, e.g., “the second annihilation.” The very expression represents an absurdity. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that “hell” will involve the extermination of either Satan, evil angels, or wicked humans (Mt. 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10).
Conclusion

The dogma of annihilation is not an innocent view with harmless consequences. It is a concept that undermines the full force of that fearful warning of which the Almighty God would have men be aware. There is many a rebel who would gladly indulge himself in a lifetime of sin for an eternal nothingness.

from

The "Second Death" -- Separation or Annihilation? : ChristianCourier.com

 

[createdtoworship]

The Social Background of Hell

The majority of verses that describe Hell say nothing at all about timeframes for occupation of Hell by the wicked -- from this may we conclude that there is a chance that the doctrine can be averted?

One major problem with such a stance is this: When Jesus speaks to the Pharisees about Hell (cf. Luke 12:4-5, Matt. 10:28), he speaks to them on ascertainable ideological ground. Josephus reports that the Pharisees fully believed that the souls of the wicked went on to eternal punishment [Cro.4VH, 65]. (It may be acknowledged, of course, that this immortality was conferred upon souls rather than being an intrinsic part of their nature; this much is correct from the annihilationist camp, in agrement with 1 Tim. 6:16. But it is not true that Jews believed in a doctrine of "soul sleep" in which the soul passed into an unconscious state until the resurrection: That much is shown by Moses and [perhaps] Elijah making an appearance at the Transfiguration!) Some critics may argue that overall, there was a diversity in Jewish views of the ultimate fate of the wicked, but since the question here involves a known view on the part of the Pharisees, the question is moot. It is with they whom Jesus interacted in these verses on this topic, and the belief in eternal punishment may be assumed even where no timeframe is mentioned. However, for the sake of argument, I will not list verses for support unless they contain explicit reference to a time frame.


.

..Josephus is less than reliable in many areas, and often imbibes Greek thought into his "history." I'm not saying that he is worthless, but hardly reliable enough to base something like this on (considering the priority given this argument by Holding). In addition, Josephus also reports that the Pharisees believed in the preexistence of souls!

Other sources which would support the contention that the Pharisees held to something of a natural immortality would be Edersheim and Morey. In contrast, many scholars place such a doctrine squarely where it belongs - in GREEK thought...Thus, the idea that "It is with (the Pharisees) whom Jesus interacted in these verses on this topic, and the belief in eternal punishment may be assumed even where no timeframe is mentioned" must be regarded as manifestly false until we see *much* more documentation.

WK's respose to this area we shall see is rather typical, in that he often argues in a rather murky way. What does it mean to say that Josephus "imbibes" his work with Greek thought? I have heard it said that Joe often presented Greek thought in his work, or explained Jewish thought in Greek terms in a way that sometimes failed to represent the Jewish thought with perfect accuracy. What I have not heard is that this "imbibing" led Josephus to falsely ascribe a Greek belief to a Jew, which is what WK seems to be leading into. If this is not so, what does he mean?

The Pharisees either a) believed in eternal torment as Joe said; b) did not believe in it, but J. either b1) recast their beliefs in "Greek" fashion or b2) just plain lied about what they believed. Imbibing or no imbibing, the latter two are rather hard to swallow, since Joe was a Pharisee himself, and it is hard to see what Pharisee belief would have had to be "recast" into eternal torment, or why he should have ascribed a position to the P's that they did not hold at all. Giving an exact accounting of how Joe misreported other Jewish beliefs (esp. Pharisee beliefs) would be helpful, but that's not what we find here. WK's counter-argument is painfully short on detail and proves absolutely nothing.

In order for this argument to mean anything, it has to be proven that the Pharisees did not actually believe in eternal torment and that Joe therefore may have made some sort of mistake. Simply arguing for the possibility of guilt by association, as in the second paragraph (eternal torment is a Greek idea; the Pharisees were not Greeks; therefore they did not believe in eternal torment; therefore Joe is somehow wrong) is to argue in a circle. The data, as it stands, clearly indicates a P belief in eternal torment. Not one shred has been provided that proves otherwise -- just speculation and circular reasoning.

Also, re the Pharisees believing in the pre-existence of souls: This is entirely irrelevant. The Gospels never record that the topic came up with Jesus and the Pharisees; if it had, we could use it in some way, but it didn't. WK is using a tactic that I have often seen skeptics use: He knows that Christians think that the doctrine of pre-existence is false, even ridiculous; hence he thinks it possible to tar the belief in eternal torment with the same brush! This is not a good argument; it is trickery and deceit. Since pre-existence never came up as a subject when Jesus spoke with the Pharisees, the matter is irrelevant.

A different tack is taken by Powys [280-1], who argues that here and in verses like Matt. 10:28 and 25:46, Jesus is "seiz[ing] one of [the Pharisees'] own foundational concepts and, with powerful rhetorical effect, hurl[ing] it against them." In other words, he didn't accept their belief, but used it against them anyway, without making it clear anywhere else that he did not accept it, and in other places Jesus also used the concept merely rhetorically and evocatively! This is no more than Powys assuming what he wants to prove, then applying topspin to make the data fit his thesis.
CONCERNING "SOUL SLEEP": I really don't understand why this was even brought up. Not all "annihilationists" hold to "soul sleep" - Philip Hughes didn't. And even though I do, the doctrine concerns THE INTERMEDIATE STATE, and has nothing to do with the issue of the final destiny of the wicked. Thus, I will not be attempting here to defend "soul sleep" - that is another discussion. However, the transfiguration which Holding mentioned does *not* prove a concious intermediate state - the event is clearly designated a "vision" by Jesus Himself!

Of course I realize that "soul sleep" is not a major annihilationism point anymore; that is why it was dealt with only parenthetically. But where, may I ask, is the Transfiguration described by Jesus as a "vision"? I see no such word used of it in either Matthew or Mark. Furthermore, is WK suggesting that Jesus created this "vision" of Moses and Elijah even though they were not really talking to them? This is tantamount to charging Jesus with deception! I certainly hope that WK is not headed in this direction.
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Verses Indicating Eternal Punishment

As we examine verses that are used to support the argument for eternal punishment, two key words will crop up. We will look at these first.

The first key word is aionios. This is the word that translates as eternal. There is no other Greek word that can refer to an eternal period of time. (The only other word I have seen suggested, pantote, carries the idea of regularity and dedication where it is used, rather than timeframes: For example, "Jesus replied. 'I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.'" - John 18:20) This word, Barr tells us, is used in cases that "refer fairly uniformly to the being of God or to plans and realities which, once are established by Him, are perpetual and unchanging. Since the word is not used of more mundane realities like the flowering of fig-trees, one cannot argue that the same kind of temporality is attributed to these as to the being of God." [Barr.BWT, 77]

Walvoord, following Buis, counts 66 occurrenes of aionios in the NT [Cro.4VH, 23]. 51 of these refer to the unending happiness of the righteous. 2 refer to the duration of God in His glory. 6 indicate an endless amount of time in other contexts, and 7 appear in reference to the punishment of the wicked.

A counter-argument seeks to make the point that aionios may in some cases refer to a limited period of time. For the word by itself, we may say that while it is true that it may refer to a time which began at a certain point and continued on into the future for eternity (and once, in the case of Rom. 16:25, backwards from a specific terminus), it never has any other meaning than an eternal period. It is significant that whenever some critics make this claim, no examples are provided as proof. [Will.EDEP, 73ff -- who says, for example, that the word "may (mean) a week, a month, a year, an age, or a series of ages"! Elsewhere, Pinnock's appeal to Cullmann as proving this point is useless, as Cullmann's arguments have been superseded by Barr.]

There is, however, a second way in which the annihilationists/conditionalists suggest that the strength of aionios can be deflected, and we will look at that when we reach a specific cite below.
annihilationism reply: First of all, the Hebrew equivilent is 'olam' and is used in Ex. 12:24; 21:1-6; 29:9; 40:15; Lev. 3:17; Deut. 15:17; 23:3,6; Josh. 14:9; I Sam. 1:22-28; 1 Kings 3:12+; 2 Kings 5:27; Jonah 2:6; and especially Isa. 34:5-11 (v. 10 is where the language of Rev. 14 comes from). In fact, "forever" is used some 56 times in Scripture FOR THINGS/EVENTS WHICH WILL END!
The Church Father Origen used 'olam' to demonstrate that the Greek 'aionios' means "a very long time" - BUT NOT LITERALLY "FOREVER" as we think of it (cf. Fudge, pp. 12-13). F.W. Farrar refers to 'aionos' ("eternal") as "a Greek adjective which is used over and over again OF THINGS TRANSITORY" (Fudge, TFTC, quoting Farrar, ETERNAL HOPE, p. 198 - emphasis mine). No less an authority than Young (as in YOUNG'S ANALYTICAL CONCORDANCE) stated concerning this word: "this word has NOT been clearly translated."

This strange attempt to deflect the meaning of a Greek word through use of one in Hebrew does not do full justice to the intricacies of one language to another that is completely different. But indeed, we need not even go in that direction. WK's assertion is misleading: olam is used not of things that "will" end, but things that did end, but were meant not to. Specifically, it is used in several of the cites above to refer to ordinances in the Jewish law which were to be kept by the Israelites.

The word olam is also used to describe the tenure of a slave, indicating that his service will last for the entirety of his life. One might argue that this indicates a time that ends, but the parallel usage of olam with the phrase "as long as he lives" in 1 Sam. 1:22-28 indicates that what lies behind olam in these cases is something of a figurative sense of "forever" that stresses the permanence of the person's condition.

Beyond that, the quotes of authority serve to prove nothing. Unless Origen, Young, Farrar, etc. have met Barr's material head-on (and Barr, as well, regards olam as meaning essentially "in perpetuity" -- i.e., forever), this is merely a poor attempt by WK to shore up his arguments fallaciously. He has not shown any case where aionios refers to anything other than eternity.

A second key word is apollumi, which emerges in our translations as "destroy". This is an important word, for many annihilationists like Pinnock and Fudge actually see it as favoring annihilation (Matt. 10:28; 2 Thess. 1:9; Phil. 3:19). But the meaning of this word and those related to it does not refer to "destruction" in the modern sense that that word is used for the annihilation of something. Rather, it is closer in meaning to the way we use "destroyed" to mean ruined or lost, as in, "He destroyed his family with his drug habit." Lest there be any doubt, take a look at some verses where the same Greek word is used, and ask youself: Were any of the items in question annihilated? [Fern.CQAH, 41]

* Mt. 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
* Mt. 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
* Mt. 26:8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked.
* Luke 15:24, "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."
* Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Of this word Holding writes: "the meaning of this word and those related to it does not refer to 'destruction' in the modern sense that that word is used for the annihilation of something. Rather, it is closer in meaning to the way we use 'destroyed' to mean ruined or lost, as in, 'He destroyed his family with his drug habit.'" Then he offers a few selective examples, NOT ONE OF WHICH CONTRADICTS WHAT I MEAN BY "ANNIHILATION" AS EXPRESSED ABOVE IN MY CLARIFICATIONS.
Strong gives the meaning as "to destroy *fully*"; look at 1 Cor. 1:19 where "destroy" ('apollumi') is parallel to "bring to nothing." Of course, as with most words, other meanings are possible depending on context. However, the various possible translations - "destroyed"; "perish"; "lost"; "kill"; etc. are all consistent with conditional immortality.
...The real question is whether the word retains its natural meaning in the passages speaking of the final end of the wicked. I offer three lines of evidence:
First, *other* words are used of the "destruction" of the wicked - example being 'kataphtheiro' in 2 Peter 2:13 --- translated as "utterly perish" (KJV).
Second, Paul uses 'apollumi' in 1 Cor. 15:18, translated "perished" (KJV). Paul's hypothetical argument here makes it clear that he means THEY WILL NOT LIVE AGAIN. For more detail on this, see my article at http://www.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/1co15.html
Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Old Testament speaks of the final end of the wicked in terms too clear to miss! The wicked will be "cut off"; will "be no more"; are "slain"; they will "not be found"; "vanish like smoke"; "perish"; "be destroyed"; be "torn to pieces"; "vanish like water which flows away"; "melt like a slug"; be like the "stillborn"; their "blood will bathe the feet of the righteous"; etc.; etc. *NONE* of these pictures can possibly symbolize "perpetual concious torment forever."
Furthermore, note that All OT examples of the destiny of the lost that the inspired NT writers use resulted not in ongoing torture, but rather DESTRUCTION (meaning "destruction" -- not something else) -- the great flood, Sodom & Gommorah, Jericho, etc.

rest of essay here:

Annihilation Refuted Part 2

 

[createdtoworship]

The Social Background of Hell

The majority of verses that describe Hell say nothing at all about timeframes for occupation of Hell by the wicked -- from this may we conclude that there is a chance that the doctrine can be averted?

One major problem with such a stancate an endless amount of time in other contexts, and 7 appear in reference to the punishment of the wicked.

A counter-argument seeks to make the point that aionios may in some cases refer to a limited period of time. For the word by itself, we may say that while it is true that it may refer to a time which began at a certain point and continued on into the future for eternity (and once, in the case of Rom. 16:25, backwards from a specific terminus), it never has any other meaning than an eternal period. It is significant that whenever some critics make this claim, no examples are provided as proof. [Will.EDEP, 73ff -- who says, for example, that the word "may (mean) a week, a month, a year, an age, or a series of ages"! Elsewhere, Pinnock's appeal to Cullmann as proving this point is useless, as Cullmann's arguments have been superseded by Barr.]

There is, however, a second way in which the annihilationists/conditionalists suggest that the strength of aionios can be deflected, and we will look at that when we reach a specific cite below.
annihilationism reply: First of all, the Hebrew equivilent is 'olam' and is used in Ex. 12:24; 21:1-6; 29:9; 40:15; Lev. 3:17; Deut. 15:17; 23:3,6; Josh. 14:9; I Sam. 1:22-28; 1 Kings 3:12+; 2 Kings 5:27; Jonah 2:6; and especially Isa. 34:5-11 (v. 10 is where the language of Rev. 14 comes from). In fact, "forever" is used some 56 times in Scripture FOR THINGS/EVENTS WHICH WILL END!
The Church Father Origen used 'olam' to demonstrate that the Greek 'aionios' means "a very long time" - BUT NOT LITERALLY "FOREVER" as we think of it (cf. Fudge, pp. 12-13). F.W. Farrar refers to 'aionos' ("eternal") as "a Greek adjective which is used over and over again OF THINGS TRANSITORY" (Fudge, TFTC, quoting Farrar, ETERNAL HOPE, p. 198 - emphasis mine). No less an authority than Young (as in YOUNG'S ANALYTICAL CONCORDANCE) stated concerning this word: "this word has NOT been clearly translated."

This strange attempt to deflect the meaning of a Greek word through use of one in Hebrew does not do full justice to the intricacies of one language to another that is completely different. But indeed, we need not even go in that direction. WK's assertion is misleading: olam is used not of things that "will" end, but things that did end, but were meant not to. Specifically, it is used in several of the cites above to refer to ordinances in the Jewish law which were to be kept by the Israelites.

The word olam is also used to describe the tenure of a slave, indicating that his service will last for the entirety of his life. One might argue that this indicates a time that ends, but the parallel usage of olam with the phrase "as long as he lives" in 1 Sam. 1:22-28 indicates that what lies behind olam in these cases is something of a figurative sense of "forever" that stresses the permanence of the person's condition.

Beyond that, the quotes of authority serve to prove nothing. Unless Origen, Young, Farrar, etc. have met Barr's material head-on (and Barr, as well, regards olam as meaning essentially "in perpetuity" -- i.e., forever), this is merely a poor attempt by WK to shore up his arguments fallaciously. He has not shown any case where aionios refers to anything other than eternity.

A second key word is apollumi, which emerges in our translations as "destroy". This is an important word, for many annihilationists like Pinnock and Fudge actually see it as favoring annihilation (Matt. 10:28; 2 Thess. 1:9; Phil. 3:19). But the meaning of this word and those related to it does not refer to "destruction" in the modern sense that that word is used for the annihilation of something. Rather, it is closer in meaning to the way we use "destroyed" to mean ruined or lost, as in, "He destroyed his family with his drug habit." Lest there be any doubt, take a look at some verses where the same Greek word is used, and ask youself: Were any of the items in question annihilated? [Fern.CQAH, 41]

* Mt. 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
* Mt. 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
* Mt. 26:8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked.
* Luke 15:24, "For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."
* Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."


rest of essay here:

Annihilation Refuted Part 2

At the risk of being anachronistic by dealing with English rather than Greek, let me use a comparable word to "punishment" to make a point. Annihilationism would have us believe that "punishment" refers here to a completed process that is eternal in its results. But let us say that, rather than eternal punishment, we were to be sentenced to eternal entertainment. It is a word paired with aionios, we will say, and it is a noun "formed from a verb involving process". Following annihilationism "logic" someone sentenced to "eternal entertainment" would begin eternity by, say, watching a few back episodes of the Three Stooges, then have it turned off from there on. "I thought this was eternal entertainment!" you would cry. "Sure it is!" Gabriel answers. "You can remember what those Stooges episodes were like and laugh about them for the rest of eternity!" Sounds like false or misleading advertising to me -- and that is what the above annihilationism argument regarding the word "punishment" is. It is a twisting of the normal meaning of a word to suit a given position. Of course, if annixers could show somewhere that the Greek word behind "punishment" refers somewhere to an "experience" that included under the rubric of the punishment an effect not actually experienced by the one punished, but merely a result of the punishment, then they might begin to have a case -- but so far, all I have seen from WK and his annihilationism cohorts is question-begging.
# Mark 9:43-8 (cf. Is. 66:24)
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

In using this verse, Jesus alluded to the OT passage noted above. This verse in Isaiah was interpreted to refer to the torments of eternal punishment both in rabbinical sources and in the Jewish apocryphal works like Judith.

Against the use of this verse, Pinnock objects that Judith (and presumably any other works) "should not determine the meaning of Isaiah or Mark." [Cro.4VH, 155] It shouldn't? Since when have the tenets of critical analysis been abandoned simply for the sake of eliminating a troublesome teaching? Nowhere else is it said that rabbinic and apocryphal sources "should not determine the meaning" of something in the NT. Why is that the case here? If this is abandoned then Wisdom of Solomon and Philo are out the door for understanding the Trinity.

A stronger argument notes that the bodies in question are said to be "carcasses" and therefore could not possibly be suffering. This is a valid point that should be considered seriously, for the word used here is clearly one used only of corpses (cf. 2 Kings 19:35//Is. 37:36). On the other hand, it is just as obvious that this verse does not support annihiliationism: In fact, if we note vv. 22-23, the indication is that just as the righteous continue to come for worship forever, so it is that they will continue to go forth and see these who are outside of the city. We are therefore faced with the paradox [Bern.FH, 171] of dead bodies that perpetually burn, with no indication of consciousness, but we are certainly not given any sense of annihilation. We are left only with 1) later interpretive methods which did use this verse to indicate eternal punishment, 2) the fact that Jesus applies the name "Gehenna" (the perpetually-burning garbage dump) to this place, and 3) this question: If eternal consciousness is not in view here, then why is there an option presented of entering hell with a whole body? If the person is not conscious, what is the point? I conclude that the data is marginally in favor of the interpretation of eternal punishment in Mark.
annihilationism reply: Here again, the source of the figure is the Old Testament. These words are obviously taken from Isaiah 66:24. In Isa. 66, the wicked are "consumed" (v. 17) in contrast to the righteous, who will live eternally (v. 22) in a new earth (v. 22) where ALL will worship God (v. 23 - compare Eph. 1:10, etc.). Finally, verse 24 uses the same figures used in Mark -- but note that the "undying worm," far from signifying ongoing existence, instead refers to "CARCASES" (also used by Isaiah in 34:3). Once again, the source of these figures used in the Gospels is the OT, and once again we see that ACCORDING TO THEIR ORIGINAL INSPIRED USAGE BY THE PROPHETS they signify NOT "perpetual torment" but rather DESTRUCTION -- real death, plain and simple.

I need only make the point here that if WK wishes to stress that Mark had to use Isaiah in exactly the same way as Isaiah did, then all typological prophecy is out the window. It was my acknowledgement above that Isaiah cannot be used by itself to support eternal, conscious torment. However, it is also clear that some later Jewish interpreters used this verse typologically in favor of eternal torment. The evidence of this verse being coupled with admonitions about the "whole body" (a point WK failed to address) leans slightly in favor of the traditional position.
# 2 Thess. 1:8-9
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

Unlike many of our verses, this passage uses the word olethros rather than one of the apo- words above. However, it still has the meaning of destruction, punishment, ruin and death. (cf. 1 Tim. 6:9-10) I have thus far seen no arguments against this verse that we have not already covered elsewhere in some form, but we can add that since Paul here describes the punishment as being "shut out from the presence of the Lord", there is a strong inmplication that the persons in question will exist and continue to exist [Pet.TRA, 555]. (Note that this refers to the loss of fellowship with God and has nothing to do with God's omnipresence as such.) It is therefore perhaps the strongest verse against annihilationism, and the least able to be re-interpreted.
annihilationism reply: Holding's theory of "different kinds" of God's presence is a make-shift argument nowhere supported in the text. The fact that the wicked are also excluded from God's "power" does not help his case one bit, as God's "power" would be REQUIRED to sustain their existence if "perpetual torment" were true. The fact that they are EXCLUDED from the very power REQUIRED to sustain their existence proves that their final end is DESTRUCTION, just as the text states. Also, the word for "power" or "might" is 'ischus' and it = "ability, might, strength, power." How can the wicked exist forever when they are clearly EXCLUDED from God's 'ischus'? Far from being "perhaps the strongest verse against annihilationism," it is one of the strongest *requiring* it!

again from above essay

 

[dollarsbill]

Wow!
Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Psa 35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul.
Psa 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.

And when we turn to the NT we find in Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 that the torture in the eternal fire is indeed eternal, NEVER ending, "FOREVER".

 

[he-man]

And when we turn to the NT we find in Luke 16, Rev 14 and 20 that the torture in the eternal fire is indeed eternal, NEVER ending, "FOREVER".

Gotcha! let his net that he hath hid catch himself!

Psa 106:18 ... the flame burned up the wicked.

2Pe 3:10... the works [people] that are therein shall be burned up.

Psa 35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my body.
Psa 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.

 

[dollarsbill]

Gotcha! let his net that he hath hid catch himself!

Psa 106:18 ... the flame burned up the wicked.

2Pe 3:10... the works [people] that are therein shall be burned up.

Psa 35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my body.
Psa 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.

Yeah ya got me. What's your point?

 

[x141]

It means exactly what it says. It needs no 'interpretation'. It is consistent with 'eternal punishment' in fire in the NT.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

This is the cup our brother drank of. His words are spirit not flesh. You do not understand the fullness of salvation that was paid for at the cross.

 

[dollarsbill]

This is the cup our brother drank of. His words are spirit not flesh. You do not understand the fullness of salvation that was paid for at the cross.

I have no idea what you mean.

 

[Timothew]

WK's respose to this area...

Who is WK? I'd like to see what he wrote. Your paste is long winded and not very convincing.
WK's answer is probably better.

 

[x141]

Originally Posted by x141

"This is the cup our brother drank of. His words are spirit not flesh. You do not understand the fullness of salvation that was paid for at the cross."


I have no idea what you mean.
__________________
Belief of Hell is not a requirement for residency.


When God speaks in the wilderness that is our soul it is like a river that is bound by two banks that it never moves out of, good and evil. The Jordan over flows it's banks all the time of harvest. The house of the philistine's stands on these two pillars.

 

[createdtoworship]

Who is WK? I'd like to see what he wrote. Your paste is long winded and not very convincing.
WK's answer is probably better.

There is nothing in Scripture that contradicts the idea that the bodies of the wicked will be somehow destructible

Annihilation Refuted Part 2

(doesn't say who author is or who WK is)

 

[he-man]

There is nothing in Scripture that contradicts the idea that the bodies of the wicked will be somehow destructible
(doesn't say who author is or who WK is)

the destruction of the enemies' forces: ANNIHILATION, obliteration, elimination, eradication, liquidation; killing, slaughter, massacre, extermination. © Oxford University Press 1995, 2002

 

[createdtoworship]

the destruction of the enemies' forces: ANNIHILATION, obliteration, elimination, eradication, liquidation; killing, slaughter, massacre, extermination. © Oxford University Press 1995, 2002

english dictionaries defining greek words, hmmm

anything wrong with this?

 

[Sophrosyne]

english dictionaries defining greek words, hmmm

anything wrong with this?

Using a dictionary is a two way street, if there is a definition for the word used that contradicts your view and you ignore it and someone shows you it is there then you have to throw out the dictionary as the defining source and rely on context in the bible instead.

 

[Sophrosyne]

the destruction of the enemies' forces: ANNIHILATION, obliteration, elimination, eradication, liquidation; killing, slaughter, massacre, extermination. © Oxford University Press 1995, 2002

Definition for annihilate - Oxford Dictionaries Online (World English)
annihilate


Pronunciation: /əˈnʌɪɪleɪt/
verb

[with object]

• 1destroy utterly; obliterate: a simple bomb of this type could annihilate them all a crusade to annihilate evil
• defeat utterly: the stronger force annihilated its opponent virtually without loss

 

[createdtoworship]

Using a dictionary is a two way street, if there is a definition for the word used that contradicts your view and you ignore it and someone shows you it is there then you have to throw out the dictionary as the defining source and rely on context in the bible instead.

"evidence can be found all over the NT as "destroy" and "perish" are used to mean "die" or "kill.""

not annihilation!

from

Annihilation Refuted Part 2