Paul the Apostle a false prophet?

[Micahdh]

There are different types of lies, such as a "pro social lie" or a lie of compassion and a"little white lie" that can be used supposedly for the good of a person to avoid hurting that persons feelings or to get that person to do what is in "their" best interest. It is a fact that many people will claim to love the person they lied to. According to Pauls teachings on grace, would a person be held accountable for the sin of a lie if they do it out of love?

 

[Zanting]

So there is much conflict because some Christians say that you can become saved by grace, do charitable things, but sin doesn't matter? That doesn't make sense to me. Why bother becoming a Christian if nothing changes in your life except maybe you are nicer to people? That's like just taking from the Bible what you want and leaving the rest of it as unapplicable. Do people actually do that?

 

[JHM]

@ Zanting : The Book, ("James the Brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman) dates from 1997, but it is still available from internet sellers if you want a copy. 1074 Pages long.

See :

If you have read the 1074 page book "James the brother of Jesus" by Robert Eisenman, coauthor of "The Facsimile Edition of the Dead Sea Scrolls" and "The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered", Professor of Middle East Religions and Archeology and Director of the Institute for the Study of Judeo-Christian Origins at California State University, Long Beach; and Visiting Senior Member of Linacre College, Oxford University. Mr Eisenamn was also the consultant to the Huntington Library in its decision to free the Scrolls, and the leading figure in the worldwide campaign to gain access to the Scrolls. He is also a National Endowment for the Humanities Fellow at the Albright Institute of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem, and a Senior Fellow at the Oxford Centre for Postgraduate Hebrew Studies ; -- you might think otherwise; for according to Eisenman, James was the leader of the early Christian community, and he and Paul were enemies.

Comments about "James The Brother of Jesus" :

"Stirs up a furor" - Los Angeles Times

"Robert Eisenman's James The Brother Of Jesus is less a book than an irresistable force. Once opened it bulldozes your prejudices, flattens your objections, elbows aside your counterargments, convinces you." - Toronto Globe and Mail

"Powerful ... A thrilling essay in historical detection ... This passionate quest refigures Christian origins." - The Guardian

"Mindb-l-o-wing ... A masterpiece ... The breadth and detail of Eisenman's investigations are breathtaking, as are its implications. Eisenman shows us how to crack the codes of theological disinformation, to listen to the long-faded echos, to find handholds up what seemed an insurmountable climb to a peak from which to view a hitherto unseen landscape ... A massive and profound achievement." - R Price, - Editor, Journal of Higher Criticism

"A tremendous work of historical scholarship ... Expert ... Unparalleled ... Great ... This book will live and live and live." - A Auswaks, Jerusalem Post

"Careful ... Passionate ... So logical and so compelling, one wonders how this demythologized, internally consistant understanding of Christianity could have been kept out of sight for so long." - The Scotsman

"Enthralling ... Immense ... Stunning ... Compelling ... A massive display of provocative scholarship." - The Oregonian

"Professor Robert Eisenman speaks with the fervour of a true believer who has been shown a revelation of stunning splendour ... His words, theories, and personal style have all made a deep impression on me. ... A tour de force ... Magnificent." - Neil Asher Silberman, author of "The Hidden Scrolls"

 

[Zanting]

Thanks for the info...I'm very interested in reading. I was planning to check out the theology dept at the Uni here first (I'm alumni there), because I may be able to get a copy sooner than ordering it. I'ld actually be surprised if they didn't have it...

 

[JHM]

Something that makes me wonder about "Paul" is how often in his various books one finds : "I Paulus ..." Its like he is promoting himself rather than GOD

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Paul was not a false prophet. When Jesus blinded Paul, there was no way that Paul was not going to be converted. Of course he had free will, but when you're in the presence of Christ, it's difficult to say no.

These shifty characters had no difficulty saying no to Jesus

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged [to perform it.']

.....

 

[Zanting]

Hmmmm...hadn't noticed, but I get your point...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hi, If we are saved by grace by faith without our works can a Person continue to commit murder,sexual immorality,keep lying and go to heaven? In a forum there was talk about the Marriage amendment law they are trying to bring into North Carolina and someone came up there and said it's not a sin to be a homosexual because Jesus died for our sins.

It's not a sin to be a homosexual. It is a sin to have homosexual sex, to subvert the Biblical marriage laws, and so on. The sin is to give in to temptation. So even heterosexual sex is immoral outside of marriage.

No, you cannot continue to violate the Commandments, but remember there's the verses about the man who sinned all his life, then repented, vs the man who was good all his life and fell. The first one went to heaven, the last one went to hell. You have your whole life to repent, but once you die, you will meet your judgement.

 

[stan1953]

Apostle Paul teachers we are saved by faith without works read Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 3:27,28 and Galatians 2:16

Yeshua Messiah teaches we are saved by faith with works. (Matthew 5:28,29 Matt 25:31-46 and Matt 7:21...even James 2:20 says faith without works is dead.

Who are we to follow... Yeshua Messiach or Apostle Paul? Sexual immorality,magic arts,idolatry and lying are works that were prohibited by Mosaic law. Those who commit wicked acts such as these will go to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Ask a Christian if he or she knows the ten commandments and see how many of them they know! There is a Mitzvot with 613 commandments. Many Christians don't bother learning these because they are told all they need to do is say a sinners prayer and ask Jesus into their hearts and they will be saved by grace.


Matthew 7:21........

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".

We are no longer under the letter of the Law...read your Bible. The verses you gave to support faith with works, DON'T. You fail to see the difference between faith only, that brings salvation, and faith plus works that is required to walk with Christ AFTER salvation. Many people do this, usually because they cherry pick verses to support their own belief and practise eisegesis.

Romans 10:8-10
The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Luke 7:50
“ Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Works is NOT involved in salvation, ONLY in our walk with Christ afterwards.

 

[stan1953]

Why is it that some Christians consider Paul (and the books written by Paul) to be a false prophet and not an aposlte?

They are blinded to the truth of the Word. There IS sufficient evidence that Paul was called by Jesus to minister to the Gentiles. We either believe the books of Acts or we don't. Those people that don't, will be held accountable by God as they did NOT believe His inspired word.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Micahdh Apostle Paul teachers we are saved by faith without works read Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 3:27,28 and Galatians 2:16

Yeshua Messiah teaches we are saved by faith with works. (Matthew 5:28,29 Matt 25:31-46 and Matt 7:21...even James 2:20 says faith without works is dead.

Who are we to follow... Yeshua Messiach or Apostle Paul?

How did Paul's Gospel differ from the Gospel of Jesus?

What different Gospel was Paul referring to in these verses?

NKJV) 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or [if] you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted -- you may well put up with it!

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

http://www.christianforums.com/t7521535/
What was the "other Gospel" Galatian 1:8,9?


.....

 

[stan1953]

I have the book "James Brother of Jesus" which states that James was the leader of the early Christian community, and that he and Paul were enemies. Personally I regard Paul's stuff as "questionable". One wonders about it when one has read James.

James understood the least. He tried to bring in Judaic Law to the early Christian Church. Both Peter and Paul had problems with His teachings, but submitted to Him anyway, probably out of deference to who he was. That was a mistake as Jesus clearly taught that the first should be the last.

 

[JHM]

Personally, I think James understood far more than Paul.

 

[stan1953]

Personally, I think James understood far more than Paul.

Well you're welcome to your opinion, but what did James understand better than Paul?

 

[Zanting]

Well, is it just that some question his conversion, or because he wasn't around Jesus while He still lived? Is it just some of his teachings that are questioned, or overall?

 

[Farandaway]

nm

 

[Abrahamist]

Why is it that some Christians consider Paul (and the books written by Paul) to be a false prophet and not an aposlte?

I used to be anti-Paul and now I fully accept Paul's writings as divinely inspired.

The difference is in interpretation. Not just in Paul's writings but in the gospels as well.

I used to interpret the Gospels one way and when I did, it looked very much like Paul had come along and rewrote and undone everything that Jesus set out to accomplish.

Over time, I came to understand the gospels better as I learned to put the gospels into their historical context. Also, I come to a different understand of many words that Paul made frequent use of. And so now, when I read the writings of Paul, I'm seeing not that he added anything because he didn't. He only expounded upon upon and clarified.

Part of it is that there is a certain common protestant interpretation of the writings of Paul that is entirely inconsistent with what Jesus taught and so one group of people reads what Jesus taught and then get over to Paul and, often without realizing it, just assume the interpretation of Paul they are most familiar with and never even think about that there are different ways of reading it. And unfortunately, the certain protestant interpretation of which I refer is all too common.

I no longer read the books of Paul like a protestant but like a Catholic and as such, I am seeing they are perfectly consistent with what Jesus and the rest of the disciples taught.

Not that the Church taught me to read them a certain way, but the other way around. When I started reading the books of Paul after having received a little education into the Hebrewic roots of Christianity and the history of the early Church, I found Paul explaining all the same conclusions that I had already reached. He wasn't adding any thing at all. He was just reexplaining it. I found that the Church interpreted Paul the same way I did and this is one of the things that lead to my conversion.

 

[Abrahamist]

You're misinterpreting those verse. Christ never says faith must be accompanied by works. James is speaking of the horizontal effect of a vertical faith in Christ. In other words, our faith will produce works not because they are necessary for salvation, but because of our love for God.

I actually think it swings both ways. We are saved by keeping the faith. Keeping the faith means doing the will of the father.

We are not saved by works, but by faith, but faith is made up of works.

Going to the gym and doing a set of bench presses is a work. Faith is showing up at the gym, five to six days a week, eating healthy and living an entire lifestyle of physical fitness.

Likewise, showing up at mass is a work. Coming to mass every Sunday regardless of what ever else is going on, and taking every opportunity presented to serve my fellow man in all days between is keeping the faith.

And faith produces works. I look for every opportunity to fulfill religious obligation because I love doing it. The commandments are a gift from God and keeping them is a reward unto itself. And so out of love for the One who gave us these gifts, I use them so that I might please the One who gave us these beautiful gifts.

 

[Abrahamist]

So Paul was Saul who persecuted Christians. He comes along after Jesus has been sacrficed and meets up with some of the apostles, hears what they are saying and goes on a rampage to erradicate their teachings and is blinded by God. After three days, God restores His sight and He finally gets it and askes to become one of Jesus deciples...and somewhere in His teachings...people find fault. He is then accused of being a false prophet? But aren't there also many references to Paul in the Gosples stating that He became a true follower of Jesus? It seems to me people keep thinking that there is some kind of hidden message in the scriptures. Something that will remove all doubts and misconceptions and will eliminate all the decension among Christian thought. There are so many perspectives often based on certain scriptures instead of looking at the canon as a whole. And it also seems to me that there are different denominations because of this. Any thoughts on this or am I way off?

This is to a large extent the reason I am a Catholic. Protestant Christianity just does not present a coherent view of the Christian religion.

 

[stan1953]

This is to a large extent the reason I am a Catholic. Protestant Christianity just does not present a coherent view of the Christian religion.

and this comment is the reason I left the RC church. WE, don't have idols in our church, WE only have ONE mediator between God and Man, Jesus. We only believe God is infallible....shall I go on?