Damage done to Jews by Christian traditions

[yedida]

The problem with that essay is that it is one of three Luther wrote about the Jews, and the other two were glowing appraisals of them. He also pleaded for the Church to treat the Jews kindly in his final sermon. It's pretty hard to generalize on this matter, as it is complex and very messy.




I read that book. It struck me as a little fleshy, as it looked more like it was written by a student of church history (which Rick is) than by a genuine prophet. It has no insight that one could not glean from picking up a copy of a good Church history book. But, for Charismatics who hate academia, it may have been the perfect voice for them to hear.

Contra!!! I'm gonna derail for a moment to ask how you are. I haven't seen you around in a long time. I pray that all is well with you and yours.

 

[ContraMundum]

Contra!!! I'm gonna derail for a moment to ask how you are. I haven't seen you around in a long time. I pray that all is well with you and yours.

Thank you for the nice response. I've been very busy, and went on a week of vacation after Peach/Easter. Back at work this week and catching up on admin and so forth. I hope you are well too.

 

[Qnts2]

The problem with that essay is that it is one of three Luther wrote about the Jews, and the other two were glowing appraisals of them. He also pleaded for the Church to treat the Jews kindly in his final sermon. It's pretty hard to generalize on this matter, as it is complex and very messy.

I heard from one other person that Luther, after his paper 'On the Jews and their Lies', that Luther wrote or said something positive about the Jewish people, but have never been able to confirm it.

Is a copy of his final sermon on the internet?
And is it dated to see if it came after his other paper?

 

[ContraMundum]

I heard from one other person that Luther, after his paper 'On the Jews and their Lies', that Luther wrote or said something positive about the Jewish people, but have never been able to confirm it.

Luther's most glowing praises for the Jews is from an earlier paper, titled "That Jesus was Born a Jew" (1523) which was pretty good for its time, and was received with some animosity on the behalf of those in the Church. Excerpts of that are found here.

There are a number of excellent quotes from Luther about the Jews and also the Hebrew language, which I have in a book titled "What Luther says", an exhaustive catalog of testimonies from the Reformer about all kinds of topics. However, he doesn't say very many complimentary things about Jews in his commentaries on Is. 9 & 53. I, however, think this is typical of medieval voices both in and outside of the church, so no surprises really.

Is a copy of his final sermon on the internet?
And is it dated to see if it came after his other paper?

There is currently a spate of misquoting Martin Luther on the internet. A thread of "Luther's last sermon" has gone a little viral, and it is a re-working of "The Jews and their Lies", so this is incorrect. He died a few years after he wrote that hideous rubbish. (Actually, I don't rate Luther all that well after after 1539/40 or so. He was often very good before that but I'm not a fan of the later, more stressed and ill Luther)

Unfortunately, I do not know of a copy of that sermon online. However, it is cited in part here and there. It is dated 15 Feb 1546. You can find it in Vol. 51 of the Weimar edition of his works, p. 195

I am of the mind that Luther died rather confused about a lot of things and that God was working on his heart to bring him to repentance about his abrasiveness towards his theological opponents and his Jewish, Catholic and Reformed neighbors. However, it appears on the surface that he died before he could come to that place where Christian charity filled his entire heart. Thank God that He is merciful to us.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Luther's most glowing praises for the Jews is from an earlier paper, titled "That Jesus was Born a Jew" (1523) which was pretty good for its time, and was received with some animosity on the behalf of those in the Church. Excerpts of that are found here.

There are a number of excellent quotes from Luther about the Jews and also the Hebrew language, which I have in a book titled "What Luther says", an exhaustive catalog of testimonies from the Reformer about all kinds of topics. However, he doesn't say very many complimentary things about Jews in his commentaries on Is. 9 & 53. I, however, think this is typical of medieval voices both in and outside of the church, so no surprises really.

There is currently a spate of misquoting Martin Luther on the internet. A thread of "Luther's last sermon" has gone a little viral, and it is a re-working of "The Jews and their Lies", so this is incorrect. He died a few years after he wrote that hideous rubbish. (Actually, I don't rate Luther all that well after after 1539/40 or so. He was often very good before that but I'm not a fan of the later, more stressed and ill Luther)

Unfortunately, I do not know of a copy of that sermon online. However, it is cited in part here and there. It is dated 15 Feb 1546. You can find it in Vol. 51 of the Weimar edition of his works, p. 195

I am of the mind that Luther died rather confused about a lot of things and that God was working on his heart to bring him to repentance about his abrasiveness towards his theological opponents and his Jewish, Catholic and Reformed neighbors. However, it appears on the surface that he died before he could come to that place where Christian charity filled his entire heart. Thank God that He is merciful to us.

So true....

 

[Temptinfates]

I think there are elements of anti-RCC in MJ, as in almost any christian demomination out there. I have debated a RCC guy on another website. I never disrespected him, but we agreed to disagree. It seems as if someone follows MJ that people are told that we are Legalists--just trying to earn salvation through the "work" of following Adonai's instructions and feasts. People obey man's law every day and never consider themselves legalists for following man's laws. I wonder why that is?
Protestants in general consider ML a hero. They never post the things he wrote against the Jews. I even have a movie on him-and that is what people are led to believe---without being told of those things he wrote. But, even that really does not concern me that much.
I am not a MJ because I oppose the RCC. The RCC really does not concern me. I don't base my beliefs as an opposition to something as the reason why I do things. I follow what is in scripture. The scripture says honor the sabbath, so, I do that. Now, why people have a problem with me doing what scripture says is beyond me. That's their struggle.
Now, when someone starts trying to force their man-made ideas on me is where I draw the line and defend myself. I know some people are against the RCC as if it's the devil itself--not my fight. Please don't classify all MJ in that light.
I oppose any man-made junk that opposes scripture in the Jewish context/culture it was written in--no matter who it is that tries to force their ideas on me. Adonai told me to follow his law. If someone tries to tell me I;m wrong, then they gotta go. I don't go out on a RCC/protestant witch hunt either. But, when they start talking their man-made junk, I draw the line. I don't go looking to convert people or anything like that. But, when people assume they know it all and that I'm somehow ignorant and legalistic, then they chose to step in my world. I follow Adonai--not a religion. I identify as MJ because I have a Jewish line and believe in Adonai, Yeshua, and scripture. But, it seems, that no one can just accept me as a MJ. They can't accept someone unless they see them as believing/acting/doing the same things as they do...then they start in on me...well, let's just say their ignorance gets exposed. To be honest, this doesn't happen too often with Catholics. But, protestants are following many RCC doctrines when they ----want to tell me what's what. They don't understand things that they haven't been exposed to-nor have they looked up info to be informed. These people are arrogantly ignorant-which I cannot tolerate.
With my debates with a RCC fellow I mentione above, we disagreed on many subjects. He even posted many "writings of people within the RCC". I found it quite informative and I considered him somewhat of a friend, We knew where we each stood. We might not agree, but at least he was convinced of his faith and respected my stand also. I learned a lot from him. I hope he learned something too.
Why do I have to defend myself from people that call themselves christian? Almost every one of them has the idea (I wonder where they get it) that they need to convert me and that if I don't accept their doctrine then they accuse me of being a legalist. They cannot accept MJ for some reason. Well, I can't accept them either. I don't want to be like them. I don't call myself a christian and some don't understand that. I don't need religion. Adonai alone will suffice for me. It's the line of doctrine these folks seem to suck up and believe cause their pastor spoon-fed it to them that always come up to me. Then I give them info. I suppose they go back to their spiritual leader and get a circle-argument..then they have to make a decision, now don't they?
Having said that, it's not necesarilly that I reject the RCC as it is that I accept scripture above religion. Now, if I don't think scripture shows Adonai changing the sabbath or his feasts, then it does warrant finding out where and how that came about. Unfortunately, that does seem to lie at the door of the RCC. But, protestants should consider why they do things. And, really, I don't even care since I don't wish to be labelled as a christian. So, it isn't an attack against the RCC, just that I try to walk as closely as the disciples did to Adonai. If the RCC didn't even exist, nor any of it's doctrines, I would still follow what I follow. So blaming or attacking the RCC is not what I give my time to. Too bad people can't just follow their religion without trying to get everyone else to fit into their mold.
Temptinfates

 

[yedida]

I know what you mean, protestants just can't seem to quit protesting!! We're soooo legalistic!
I've about come to the belief that they are perfectly aware that we are not "working to earn our salvation." They know this is a lie. But they have to do something about the fact that we're behaving differently, we're looking like the disciples looked and this puts them in an uncomfortable situation, a situation they have to deal with. So, we are legalistic. I can live with that....

 

[Temptinfates]

I don't look for these peop;e. they come up to me. All the time. But after a little time with me, they start hearing more than what they thought they knew. Now, they will ptobably start questioning why their "teacher" hasn't told them things. Then they question that leadership that gives circle arguments. I just try to live my life and do what I believe is written and right before Adonai. They think they have the right to come convince me I'm wrong without knowing anything about me at all. They have been brainwashed to think it is their duty..but, they are so unprepared...because they have been taught MILK,
They accuse me of being a legalist. That's fine. So I ask them "which one of the ten commandments" is too hard for a person to follow. Then I start going down the list. Then they start to see that Adonai's instructions are not that difficult The problem is, they have aproblem with The Sabbath itself. They are taught they follow it by Sunday worship. They know it says it. They just reject it and justify themselves. The only defense they have is to call me a legalist. I have seen this so many times and heard them quote scripture out of context it isn't funny. If they want believe that way, more power to them. But, they think that because I drive a truck that they need to convert me. So they come and get schooled.
Some truckstops have ministries . There is no Sabbath worship--just Sunday..That is fine. I have sat outside the truckstop with the guy that leads them (with a crowd) and discussed things. Is it my fault for people listening in and getting schooled? They quickly learn these guys are teaching MILK. Why is it that these guys want to teach but can't answer REAL questions? I'm not disrespectful. But people are waking up. They are seeing past what they have been spoonfed. "Hey brother can I talk to you"? Why sure you can. But people are going to listen and see you for what you are..remember, you asked for it. . lol.I'm just a cuddly little legalist.
Temptinfates

 

[visionary]

Damage done to the faith of Yeshua.. how about almost obliterating it?

 

[razeontherock]

"The Jews and their Lies", so this is incorrect. He died a few years after he wrote that hideous rubbish. (Actually, I don't rate Luther all that well after after 1539/40 or so. He was often very good before that but I'm not a fan of the later, more stressed and ill Luther)

I'm more than a little late to the party here, but I thought I would let y'all know that a growing trend in academia is to identify Luther as some inhuman monolithic block throughout his lifetime, that never changed, ever.

As if people were even capable of that.

 

[razeontherock]

Damage done to the faith of Yeshua.. how about almost obliterating it?

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

 

[visionary]

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

amen.. religious rituals will always mess with the personal connection.

 

[Temptinfates]

How about showing the truth? They come to my door to peddle religion and truth when they only have considered part of it. I don't obliterate their faith. I explain it in a way they can get past the hoops and see. Then they see the truth. Then they decide what they do with it. I haven't had one yet that hasn't thanked me. Faith in Yeshua or faith in Adonai? It is the same. Yeshua's sacrifice was to restore people to Adonai. Rejecting what Adonai has alresdy written is not right. The Father and son agree. If you can show this to people in a way that makes sense to them, their faith grows. I put it to them. They decide what they do with it. Again, these people come to me and I direct them to the Father. If their faith is paper thin, there is a reason. They know I;m for real. They see that in me. I have no agenda and make no profits. I direct people that I most likely will never see again to the Father. Then they understand, and can walk their faith instead of just talk it.
Temptinfates

 

[razeontherock]

amen.. religious rituals will always mess with the personal connection.

Hey now, didn't this thread just go through a phase of identifying anti RC sentiment? (Sorry, that joke was just left too wide open, and too easy)

Anyway, your comment has been exactly my experience. CF challenges me to accept others that somehow benefit from ritual. (The thought still makes me shudder, but I think it's a good thing, and part of growing in Love)

Know what happens when you pray for the Lord to enlarge your heart?

It breaks. It rips. It hurts.

And yet the giver of Life sustains us, and does His ancient work ...

They come to my door to peddle religion and truth when they only have considered part of it.

I'm sure I'm just missing context, but who are you referring to here?

 

[Temptinfates]

People that see me as a target to evangelize and come up to me with that purpose---as stated in above post.
Temptinfates

 

[visionary]

Hey now, didn't this thread just go through a phase of identifying anti RC sentiment? (Sorry, that joke was just left too wide open, and too easy)

Anyway, your comment has been exactly my experience. CF challenges me to accept others that somehow benefit from ritual. (The thought still makes me shudder, but I think it's a good thing, and part of growing in Love)

Know what happens when you pray for the Lord to enlarge your heart?

It breaks. It rips. It hurts.

And yet the giver of Life sustains us, and does His ancient work ...




I'm sure I'm just missing context, but who are you referring to here?

If their relationship is stronger towards the image, object, litergy, or rituals.. then the personal connection is missing... because if they think that this is their connection, they are sadly mistaken... It is like saying the wedding ring is THE connection... when the living day to day relationship is the real connection to your mate and the wedding ring is just symbolic and no way calls up favors or privileges because you are wearing it. Your spouse will have the same relationship with you with or without the ring. I am not saying that the ring isn't nice because there are some beautiful ones out there. But that is not what is important.

 

[razeontherock]

People that see me as a target to evangelize and come up to me with that purpose---as stated in above post.
Temptinfates

Ok, I thought it was something specific; JW or something

 

[razeontherock]

If their relationship is stronger towards the image, object, litergy, or rituals.. then the personal connection is missing... because if they think that this is their connection, they are sadly mistaken... It is like saying the wedding ring is THE connection... when the living day to day relationship is the real connection to your mate and the wedding ring is just symbolic and no way calls up favors or privileges because you are wearing it. Your spouse will have the same relationship with you with or without the ring. I am not saying that the ring isn't nice because there are some beautiful ones out there. But that is not what is important.

And this is exactly what makes Faith so difficult! A married person can see their spouse, and look at their ring when they are apart. We have no parallel ...

"As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. (Psalm 42:2) My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God? My tears have been my meat day and night, while they continually say unto me, Where [is] thy God? When I remember these [things], I pour out my soul in me: for I had gone with the multitude, I went with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, with a multitude that kept holyday. Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and [why] art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him [for] the help of his countenance. O my God, my soul is cast down within me: therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar. Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me. [Yet] the LORD will command his lovingkindness in the daytime, and in the night his song [shall be] with me, [and] my prayer unto the God of my life. I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? [As] with a sword in my bones, mine enemies reproach me; while they say daily unto me, Where [is] thy God? Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, [who is] the health of my countenance, and my God."

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it

 

[Temptinfates]

Faith is not a magical concept, And I know you did not say that. You have faith in your spouse. You trust and know them. That faith and trust will not accept someone saying something you know they would not do. If someone tells me my children are down at the barb-q joint, I know not to believe them. I have faith in them because I know they above eating pork and that they honor Adonai--lol, most of the time.
Abraham's faith was not just a one time experience "he believed G-d". I think Adonai spoke to him six times, each time proving he could be trusted. This has been my experience, also.
For years, I thought I knew. read scripture, debated it, went to church, did everything that is supposedly what one is supposed to do. People have been taught this is what it;s all about....so did I. The more scripture, the more you knew, put you oon a rung.
That all changed. He made himself known to me. He worked through people and circumstances to let me know it was him. Over the course of these events, my faith in him is very solid. He told me "no more doubt from you". The circumstances are just way beyond circumstances. What I thought was faith was not faith. He is not what I had been taught nor what I thought I learned. Over time, things happened as he said they would. I have faith and trust what he told me. I have had conversations with him concerning my family. Most people have the luvury (if you wish) to have doubt. Even little doubts that creep in. know what I mean? I absolutely am not given that luxury. At first I was skeptical as anyone would be. That is why he had to prove to me that it was really him, because I would reject anything else. He is very strict. He told me things about my family he is not happy with. He is going to cleanse my family. There will be few left. He has to, and I understand why. He had to let me know what was going on, so he let me know, so that when things happen, I will know it;s him doing it. He has let me know beforehand that people were going to die. I have lost mother, father, brother, and other family members in such a fashion. And, I was told, so that I could be prepared---which didn't make it any easier. So, I stand with Adonai no matter what. He let me know things about my family that would make anyone sick. He tells me what they will say when they come before him. He told me my father would come before him and tell him that he is wrong. Yeah, to walk with Adonai has cost me everything as far as what the world considers important. My father;s sins are truly terrible. Adonai hears this junk day in and day out. My lineage has been in witchcraft for many centuries. They turned against Adonaii. Adonai wants things restored. So, he tells me about things as he walks me through it. It is a very hard and tough walk. He cannot allow people on the other side of my family room to tell he is wrong or throw in his face that he made my walk easy. So, he makes my walk very hard. It is my free-will to restore my family. Legally, my family is bound to the evil one. Now, if you think the other side is not against me, I have to laugh. Adonai has told me what's going on, he has had to allow the other side to try to keep things the way they have been for a long time. So, Adonai has spoken to me, and he expects me to toe the line. People think they know about spiritual matters when all they have done is read about it. I live it. So, Adonai wants something from me. I am giving something back to him that used to belong to him--long ago, before my family turned against him. It is my free-will. I have been offered many things from the other side, including being a king. that didn't work, so then the threats. The other side really does not like me for standing with Adonai. This last week I had storms and had another truck driver try to tun me off the road. He can intimidate me, but he can't kill me, cause that's the rules. He can't win by killing me. I would have to choose to serve him. If I don't, he loses. These are the rules. I know them. Adonai knows them. The other side knows them. When I say I crossed the line, I mean it. Adonai told me there have been many from my lineage to change things, but they all failed. He told me I am the last one he will work with. I am the last of my line, but, also the beginning of a new line. I either walk with him or I don't. It is my choice. Wanna walk my walk? My wife says, she doesn't, lol
Temptinfates

 

[visionary]

Faith is not a magical concept, And I know you did not say that. You have faith in your spouse. You trust and know them. That faith and trust will not accept someone saying something you know they would not do. If someone tells me my children are down at the barb-q joint, I know not to believe them. I have faith in them because I know they above eating pork and that they honor Adonai--lol, most of the time.
Abraham's faith was not just a one time experience "he believed G-d". I think Adonai spoke to him six times, each time proving he could be trusted. This has been my experience, also.

For years, I thought I knew. read scripture, debated it, went to church, did everything that is supposedly what one is supposed to do. People have been taught this is what it;s all about....so did I. The more scripture, the more you knew, put you oon a rung.

That all changed. He made himself known to me. He worked through people and circumstances to let me know it was him. Over the course of these events, my faith in him is very solid. He told me "no more doubt from you". The circumstances are just way beyond circumstances. What I thought was faith was not faith. He is not what I had been taught nor what I thought I learned.

Over time, things happened as he said they would. I have faith and trust what he told me. I have had conversations with him concerning my family. Most people have the luvury (if you wish) to have doubt. Even little doubts that creep in. know what I mean? I absolutely am not given that luxury. At first I was skeptical as anyone would be.

That is why he had to prove to me that it was really him, because I would reject anything else. He is very strict. He told me things about my family he is not happy with. He is going to cleanse my family. There will be few left. He has to, and I understand why. He had to let me know what was going on, so he let me know, so that when things happen, I will know it;s him doing it.

He has let me know beforehand that people were going to die. I have lost mother, father, brother, and other family members in such a fashion. And, I was told, so that I could be prepared---which didn't make it any easier.

So, I stand with Adonai no matter what. He let me know things about my family that would make anyone sick. He tells me what they will say when they come before him. He told me my father would come before him and tell him that he is wrong. Yeah, to walk with Adonai has cost me everything as far as what the world considers important. My father;s sins are truly terrible. Adonai hears this junk day in and day out. My lineage has been in witchcraft for many centuries. They turned against Adonaii.

Adonai wants things restored. So, he tells me about things as he walks me through it. It is a very hard and tough walk. He cannot allow people on the other side of my family room to tell he is wrong or throw in his face that he made my walk easy. So, he makes my walk very hard. It is my free-will to restore my family. Legally, my family is bound to the evil one. Now, if you think the other side is not against me, I have to laugh.

Adonai has told me what's going on, he has had to allow the other side to try to keep things the way they have been for a long time. So, Adonai has spoken to me, and he expects me to toe the line. People think they know about spiritual matters when all they have done is read about it. I live it.

So, Adonai wants something from me. I am giving something back to him that used to belong to him--long ago, before my family turned against him. It is my free-will. I have been offered many things from the other side, including being a king. that didn't work, so then the threats. The other side really does not like me for standing with Adonai.

This last week I had storms and had another truck driver try to tun me off the road. He can intimidate me, but he can't kill me, cause that's the rules. He can't win by killing me. I would have to choose to serve him.

If I don't, he loses. These are the rules. I know them. Adonai knows them. The other side knows them. When I say I crossed the line, I mean it. Adonai told me there have been many from my lineage to change things, but they all failed. He told me I am the last one he will work with. I am the last of my line, but, also the beginning of a new line. I either walk with him or I don't. It is my choice. Wanna walk my walk? My wife says, she doesn't, lol
Temptinfates

Thems the rules, just like Job living through the test... May you continue to be the overcomer for His name sake.