what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[LoAmmi]

Thanks, thats given me heaps to think on : )

Glad I could help! I really do enjoy when I get to share rather than defend my beliefs.

 

[dfw69]

No you don't understand me, if a man kills another he has created hell, both within himself and as an outward projection. This hell he has created is a seperation from God. Then the only way we can then stop that hell is to forgive the man (but you stand in judgement, without the knowledge of their subjective experience ) That doesn't mean he doesn't get removed from society if they are still a danger to the public. But if within that removed place they can be shown love and support (something that they were probably have never been shown before) then they can start to see the error of their ways and build connection. What you don't see is that your very 'wanting them to go to hell' is you creating hell within yourself, as seperation from God, I suspect the only problem is your inability to grasp the concept. Then when you die that aspect of what you have created will still be present (if we do indeed survive after death) so it matters not that you declare yourself a Christian, but only that you followed the life of Christ. Love, Compassion, Forgiveness. Look to the saints/sages/mystics as other living examples and what they stood for.

you talking about rehabilitate the wicked sinners and heretics..does god do that in the afterlifr?....acording to the new testsment....its apointed once to die and then the judgement...that basically says we got one life then judgement....and judgement determines if a man continues in the new world to come....or cast away into the lake of fire.......this is why we must get it right the first time...the punishment is so severe....all the 10 commandments are to protect man from hurting one another....to break them leads to severe punishment....thus recogncile with one another is wise....

 

[dfw69]

This is why vengeance is God's, not ours. God's Judgment will be His alone to make and we dare not reduce that Judgment to that of a human being--vindictive, violent, punitive. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts; His are infinitely higher than ours. And we do well to remember this.

-CryptoLutheran

whatever god decides in judgement is aproved of me....for i know he alone is god....he is just to show mercy on those he shows mercy....and he is just to condemn those worthy to be condemned....i will worship him no matter what he does...if i am worthy of hell....then so be it.....i know i am not worthy ....my only hope is my faith in jesus...if jesus cant save me...no one can....for i have sinned against god

 

[dfw69]

I am going to assume that verse 2 is the big one for you:
2. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.

First, I see no idea of eternal torture in the word disgrace or abhorrence. I see a contrast between those that were good and those that were wicked. In my view, the wicked will feel guilt and shame for the way they behaved in life.
24. "And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."

I guess the first question I would have is why are these described as corpses. As we know, corpses are dead bodies. They are devoid of whatever it is that makes us alive. This is not describing people, this is describing dead bodies. Seems like these people will not be raised back up from the grave.
16. May He incite Death upon them; may they descend to the grave alive, for there are evils in their dwelling, in their midst.

A wish for his enemies to be buried alive it seems. Not exactly the nicest wish.

Still, I see no evidence for people being tortured forever.


I hope this is not seen as promoting, but I would like to share a bit about a Jewish view of "Hell":
Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.
The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.
The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).


I do not believe it is a place of torture, but rather a place of learning and repentance. I also am not sure about the last part with the utterly wicked. I like to believe that everybody can be redeemed when given the truth. It may just be a harsher afterlife for those that were truly wicked, knowing what they have done.

.......



gan eden?...only true righteous?....who are the true righteous?....and if gehinnom is a actual place that may symbolize a hell...thats all the proof i need...

 

[LoAmmi]

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gan eden?...only true righteous?....who are the true righteous?....and if gehinnom is a actual place that may symbolize a hell...thats all the proof i need...

It says only the true righteous go directly to gan eden.

If you notice, the maximum time you spend there is 11 months. That is not "proof" for you.

 

[dfw69]

It says only the true righteous go directly to gan eden.

If you notice, the maximum time you spend there is 11 months. That is not "proof" for you.

Gehinnom.....is that the same as genevha?....aplace where perpetual fire exist?...whats the other story.......i mean why do some believe its a place for torture and punishment?

 

[Eyes wide Open]

you talking about rehabilitate the wicked sinners and heretics..does god do that in the afterlifr?....acording to the new testsment....its apointed once to die and then the judgement...that basically says we got one life then judgement....and judgement determines if a man continues in the new world to come....or cast away into the lake of fire.......this is why we must get it right the first time...the punishment is so severe....all the 10 commandments are to protect man from hurting one another....to break them leads to severe punishment....thus recogncile with one another is wise....

To be born to physical form is death, death to the spirit and the judgement that follows is the life we live in that physical from. Once you get re-born to the spirit the judgemnet ends because so do your sinful actions (mostly) but meaning you are following God's will in life, life eternal. The lake of fire is reference to living a sinful life detached from God. Yes we get one life, life eternal and within that life if we don't combine our will with the will of God the Judgement is present. It's more subtle than you think. I don't see a problem with scripture only our interpretion of it.

 

[LoAmmi]

Gehinnom.....is that the same as genevha?....aplace where perpetual fire exist?...whats the other story.......i mean why do some believe its a place for torture and punishment?

I think people believe it is a place for torture due to some sort of revenge fantasy. "You don't believe what I do, so you'll burn FOREVER!"

I would have to verify that the word is what is used in the Hebrew originally. I do not think it is, but I have not looked.

 

[dfw69]

I think people believe it is a place for torture due to some sort of revenge fantasy. "You don't believe what I do, so you'll burn FOREVER!"

I would have to verify that the word is what is used in the Hebrew originally. I do not think it is, but I have not looked.

lol...jesus did not preach hell to scare into beliving his will.....but to forwarn the wicked and sinner not to break the commandments

the messiah came and revealed things that were hidden conserning the kingdom....

 

[someguy14]

some sort of revenge fantasy.

Psalm 7:15-16 KJV
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psalm 7:16-17 JPS
He has dug a pit and deepend it, and will fall into the trap he made.
His mischief will recoil upon his own head; his lawlessness will come down upon his skull.

 

[LoAmmi]

lol...jesus did not preach hell to scare into beliving his will.....but to forwarn the wicked and sinner not to break the commandments

the messiah came and revealed things that were hidden conserning the kingdom....

"Follow me or burn forever."

before Jesus, did sinners go to Hell?

 

[dfw69]

To be born to physical form is death, death to the spirit and the judgement that follows is the life we live in that physical from. Once you get re-born to the spirit the judgemnet ends because so do your sinful actions (mostly) but meaning you are following God's will in life, life eternal. The lake of fire is reference to living a sinful life detached from God. Yes we get one life, life eternal and within that life if we don't combine our will with the will of God the Judgement is present. It's more subtle than you think. I don't see a problem with scripture only our interpretion of it.

adam and eve were not born into death ...but given life ....and was commanded to be friutful and multiply....

it was the sin commited that caused death....right?

 

[dfw69]

"Follow me or burn forever."

before Jesus, did sinners go to Hell?

idk before jesus.....but since the new covenant...the punishment for disobedience is eternal death.....or eternal seperation from god.......for all will be reserected....some to life....some to lake of fire

who are the rigjteous who get to go to gan eden?

 

[LoAmmi]

idk before jesus.....but since the new covenant...the punishment for disobedience is eternal death.....or eternal seperation from god.......for all will be reserected....some to life....some to lake of fire

So, potentially Jesus made it worse for everybody?

who are the rigjteous who get to go to gan eden?

No idea. It is not my call

 

[dfw69]

Psalm 7:15-16 KJV
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psalm 7:16-17 JPS
He has dug a pit and deepend it, and will fall into the trap he made.
His mischief will recoil upon his own head; his lawlessness will come down upon his skull.

reminds me of the story of haman....the one who built gallows

 

[LoAmmi]

Psalm 7:15-16 KJV
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.
His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

Psalm 7:16-17 JPS
He has dug a pit and deepend it, and will fall into the trap he made.
His mischief will recoil upon his own head; his lawlessness will come down upon his skull.

Ok?

 

[dfw69]

So, potentially Jesus made it worse for everybody?

No idea. It is not my call

are you going to gad eden?

acually hashem sent jesus....so give credit where credit is due....god created the lake of fire for satan....but all who will work the works of satan end up there

 

[someguy14]

Ok?

In response to your "revenge fantasy" statement.

 

[LoAmmi]

In response to your "revenge fantasy" statement.

David had some revenge fantasies as well. Why would that surprise me?

 

[dfw69]

In response to your "revenge fantasy" statement.

I think its a fantasy to not belive in hell...