eclipsenow said in post #436:
So your assumption dictates your reading. How convenient!
It's not just convenient, but rational to assume that the future (i.e. "things which must be hereafter" Rev. 4:1), highly-detailed, almost entirely literal, and chronological events of Rev. chs. 6-22 have never been fulfilled, when no history book shows them being fulfilled.
If you feel they've been fulfilled, simply quote the historical sources which prove that to be the case.
1. Assume it's about future events, not highly detailed symbols so we can... read the rest of the bible and understand the clear theological story it is telling us. No, this can't be theology! It's highly detailed! There's nothing detailed about theology! Theology is just wishy washy good intentions, anything detailed just has to be a future event!
Please indicate what highly-detailed and "clear theological story" you feel
all the details in Rev. chs. 6-22 symbolize.
Can you hear what you are implying? Just because John casts his symbols into interesting and detailed configurations is not in and of itself evidence that these are literal events or predictions of particular future events. Not at all!
What's the evidence that Rev. chs. 6-22
aren't almost entirely literal events or predictions of particular future events (i.e. "things which must be hereafter" Rev. 4:1), especially when they're so highly detailed and in chronological order? See the "Revelation chapters 6-21 are chronological" part of post #427.
Jesus had many highly detailed parables that were not predictions of literal events.
That's right. But the Bible makes clear they were parables, by calling them "parables", and/or by using in them words such as "like" and "as", and by presenting them as things which had already happened. But nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires that they're a parable, instead of them being almost entirely literal (see the "symbolic" part of post #427). Also nothing in Rev. chs. 6-22 requires that they're things which already happened, instead of "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).
What in Rev. has given you the idea that the details in Rev. chs. 6-22
aren't predictions of literal events?
But some were. Many described his death and resurrection in highly symbolic language. It's a good way to describe the gospel. So when John introduces us to his letter and describes it as the gospel of the Lord Jesus, and then writes all about Jesus death and resurrection in symbolic picture language, we should be quickly cued in that this is GOSPEL THEOLOGY!
What specific verses in Rev. are you referring to?
Your arguments to the contrary are sounding increasingly strained, weak, and frantic.
How?
Mark 13 about the abomination was fulfilled in AD70.
Mark 13:14 wasn't fulfilled in 70 AD, for it's referring back to Dan. 11:31.
The abomination of desolation (AOD) in Dan. 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the AOD in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place of the 2nd temple building at the time of Antiochus IV. But per Mt. 24:15, the church will see the AOD in Dan. 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the AOD "stand" "in" the holy place of the temple building (which will exist in the future). This future AOD could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (the AC) (Rev. 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31) to be worshipped (Rev. 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel will have restarted in front of the temple (Dan. 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Dan. 11:31). The AC will then fulfill Dan. 11:36/2 Thes. 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon), the AC (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:4-8), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4, Mt. 24:9-13).
Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). Also, because the AC will fulfill Dan. 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Dan. 11:36 for the 1st (and only) time, then he'll also fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the AC will fulfill all of Dan. 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Dan. 11:13-19 could be antitypically fulfilled by an Iraqi Baathist General defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").
But that is only on one level. It, again, is a highly symbolic passage dealing both with the end of the world and how God is going to deal with sin on the way to the New Heavens and New Earth. It's by Jesus death and resurrection. It's by the gospel! But right now is not about Mark 13, which is a very complex passage.
Why can't Mark 13 be almost entirely literal, just as Rev. chs. 6-22 are almost entirely literal?
Also, what "gospel" verses in Mark 13 are you referring to, and why do you feel it's a "very complex" passage?
Well, I'm a symbolist not a preterist, but I would say that I have more sympathy for a Preterist reading than yours.
Do you mean a
partial preterist reading? If so, why does partial preterism believe in a future 2nd coming but not a future tribulation, when:
1. The 2nd coming & rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church: 2 Thes. 2:1, 1 Thes. 4:15-17) must occur immediately after the trib of Mt. 24/Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6);
2. The 2nd coming & rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the trib and declares himself God (2 Thes. 2:1-4, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15-31, Rev. 11:1-2, 13:4-8); and
3. At Jesus' 2nd coming to rapture and marry the church he'll destroy the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1,8, Rev. 19:7,20)?
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Partial preterism might reply: "It's obvious the rapture hasn't happened yet".
That's right. But
full preterism nonetheless still (mistakenly) claims the 2nd coming, resurrection, & rapture described in 1 Thes. 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:29-31, 1 Cor. 15:22-23,52-54, & Rev. 19:7-20:6) have already happened, for full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument that partial preterism uses to (mistakenly) claim that all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the trib of Rev. chs. 6-18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the 2nd coming, resurrection, & rapture haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thes. 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:29-31, 1 Cor. 15:22-23,52-54, & Rev. 19:7-20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting that the events of Rev. chs. 6-18 haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find these events?
Basically, believe it or not, John was writing to and about and for an audience of people 2000 years ago!
That's right, and all the time since then. See the "relevant" part of post #433, and the "soon" part of post #433.
But through his theology we get hints of what to expect life generally to be like until the Lord returns on Judgement Day to raise the dead and judge between good and evil, friends and enemies, banish death forever, and usher in the New Heavens and New Earth.
On what Rev. verses is the "generally" part based?
Also, on what Rev. verses is the idea based of Jesus ushering in the New Heavens and New Earth immediately at his return?
Or, are you thinking of 2 Pet. 3:10-13?
If so, re: 2 Pet. 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord (DOTL) will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11, 21:1), and this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and a new surface for the earth (2 Pet. 3:13, Rev. 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Jn. 14:2, Rev. 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Rev. 21:2-3). But the DOTL won't immediately bring the destruction of the current atmosphere and surface of the earth, for the DOTL will begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Pet. 3:10a, Rev. 16:15), after which he'll establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29).
After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39), and after the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion at least 7 more years will occur on the earth (Ezek. 39:9b) before its atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the white throne judgment, will be part of the DOTL, because it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Pet. 3:8).
