When Will Christ Return?

[virgilio]

Most of this is apocalyptic picture language that is theologically descriptive but scientifically silent. So while I might have said the old order of creation was 'destroyed', according to 2 Peter 3, I'm quite happy to replace that word with 'upgraded'.

By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Hi eclipsenow,
"Fire" is a figurative speech which signifies the word of God Hebrew4: 12 For the word of God [is] living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to [the] division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of [the] heart. By the word of God John 1:3 everything was made and Romans 1:20 -- for from [the] world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, -- so as to render them inexcusable.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The intent of this verse 2 Peter 3:7 is to explore the traditional interpretation of the Apostle Peter’s prophecies and determine whether the Law and the Prophets (Isa. 8:20) or the Old Testament (OT) supports it.
This article will also show that mankind has historically misunderstood when and by what manner the world would end. We will find that when both John the Baptist and the Messiah told Israel they would be baptized in fire (Mt. 3:11-12), the Jews did not understand this baptism.
The Messiah revealed that the Apostles received the resurrection and the true baptism of fire on the day of Pentecost (Acts. 2:1-4). Prior to this, they had no understanding of the resurrection and the baptism of fire except in a physical sense. Thus, it is no wonder that the masses of Christians do not understand the earth being baptized in fire. They must have a revelation from the Holy Spirit.
We will examine the word “fire” to show that it has many definitions on a literal, figurative, and symbolic level. People of the biblical era believed that fire was of supernatural origin. It should be noted that there were many cultures that believed the earth would be destroyed by fire long before Israel was formed as a nation. Due to space limitation the basis of their beliefs will not be discussed.
The tabernacle pattern and modern science will be used to aid in the correct interpretation of the end of the world. Finally, we will show that the events to end this age are a hidden mystery that only God knows and are only understood in analogies and allegories.
[/FONT](copy from McArthur's Bible commentary 2 Pet.3:7)

As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

About the destroying of heaven and earth here is the word of Jesus, Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it has been said to the ancients, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt render to the Lord what thou hast sworn.

v.34 But *I* say unto you, Do not swear at all; neither by the heaven, because it is [the] throne of God;

v.35 nor by the earth, because it is [the] footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is [the] city of the great King.

v.36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

v.37 But let your word be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; but what is more than these is from evil.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[interpreter]

A thousand years from now, the earth will be destroyed by fire, and then all the dead are raised and judged according to their works. Thoose found worthy will get to live on a new earth without any sea, (Sounds like Mars to me).

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

It is incredible how SO many have fallen SO deeply into the gnostic preterist deception.
Not that it endangers one salvation. That was obviously sealed at the cross by Messiah. No, I suppose theology make no difference at all. John 3:16

But I guess it does lend one to be more easily deceived when the prophecies begin to unfold, the seals opened and the destruction beginning.
Futurists such as myself can not possibly be deceived....we wait, wait, wait. Each leader that arises is looked at and his actions judged. Yes, we are patiently(in some cases) waiting for that little horn to come out of the beasts head. All the while for the most part we are still working for the Lord, helping the poor, freeing the enslaved, housing the widow. We love our brothers no less than the preterist.
No, we just won't allow ourselves to be convinced of the OLD lie of lies. That we are gods, or we are christs.

Man cannot make clean what satan has made filthy. Yes, we allowed it, and as individuals we have freewill to turn away from sin and put forth good fruit, but in the end the nonbelievers will do the same, revering all but one commandment, YOU MUST HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME! Including ourselves or the evil beautiful one to come.

 

[maat]

Many would argue that life in America has never been better? That would contradict your 'signs of the times', wouldn't it?

I think the bible makes it pretty clear that there will always be 'stuff' (wars, earthquakes, droughts, famines, storms, etc) happening, right across the 'Last days'. The Last Days started when the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. We've been in them for 2000 years, and they've had pretty much the same story of disaster, drought, and disease. It's the same old, same old.

Perhaps, yet the world has never had massive underfunded pensions/SS medicare and a growing elderly population until this time period. The world is choking itself with socialism. This is not a dig at socialism, just a realistic view of its eventual end scenario.

 

[Achilles6129]

What really disturbs me is that only 43% voted "I don't know". This is the ONLY correct answer from the choices above.

Not at all. One can have one's own beliefs about when Christ will return, without contradicting any Scriptures.

The Lord could return in 5 seconds or 50 thousand years! We don't know. Jesus himself nearly shouts that message in his teachings; the Apostles continue to shout it.

No, the prophecy must be fulfilled. Christ cannot return until all the prophecy has been fulfilled. Therefore, there must be a world government with 10 kings and an antichrist.

There is no other verse in the bible that contradicts Jesus saying he will return unexpectedly, like a thief. None. Zip.

" 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. " 1 Th. 5:2-4

These passages plainly contradict what you're saying.

I myself believe the book of Rev has been fulfilled and not for us in the 21st century but for those 1st century Christians. I believe the only thing to happen is Acts 1 where Christ returns. That's just me.

The book of Rev. has yet to be fulfilled and is mentioned by Christ in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lu. 21. It is also based off of the OT (particularly Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, etc.).

We are not given any 'signs' by which we might know. Not one.

"25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Lu. 21:25-26

These verses (and others) strongly suggest that the book of Revelation is literal.

Revelation is the gospel writ large in apocalyptic picture language for the suffering church.

See above.

 

[virgilio]

A thousand years from now, the earth will be destroyed by fire, and then all the dead are raised and judged according to their works. Thoose found worthy will get to live on a new earth without any sea, (Sounds like Mars to me).

Hello interpreter greetings,
No, it will not be like Mars without sea. Sea is a figurative word that signifies
sin. see Genesis 1:2-3 And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
v.3 And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.
Here we see that the earth is waste and empty,the darkness was on the face of the deep meaning that there are no silence or peace because of the fallen angel who rebel against God and we can observed that the Spirit of God is hovering over the face of the water or God has control on the ongoing mess till God declared that there be light and God see the light is good,
It is the same of the new earth and new heaven, we shall be created as na new creation and the sea will be gone which means that the sin of man will be forgiven.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth - Such a heaven and earth that they might properly be called new; such transformations, and such changes in their appearance, that they seemed to be just created. He does not say that they were created now, or anew; that the old heavens and earth were annihilated; but all that he says is, that there were such changes that they seemed to be new. If the earth is to be renovated by fire, such a renovation will give an appearance to the globe as if it were created anew, and might be attended with such an apparent change in the heavens that they might be said to be new. The description here Revelation 21:1 relates to scenes after the general resurrection and the judgment - for those events are detailed in the close of the previous chapter. In regard to the meaning of the language here, see the notes on 2 Peter 3:13.

As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh, but the earth standeth for ever.
Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi eclipsenow,
"Fire" is a figurative speech which signifies the word of God Hebrew4: 12 For the word of God [is] living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to [the] division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of [the] heart. By the word of God John 1:3 everything was made and Romans 1:20 -- for from [the] world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity, -- so as to render them inexcusable.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The intent of this verse 2 Peter 3:7 is to explore the traditional interpretation of the Apostle Peter’s prophecies and determine whether the Law and the Prophets (Isa. 8:20) or the Old Testament (OT) supports it.
This article will also show that mankind has historically misunderstood when and by what manner the world would end. We will find that when both John the Baptist and the Messiah told Israel they would be baptized in fire (Mt. 3:11-12), the Jews did not understand this baptism.
The Messiah revealed that the Apostles received the resurrection and the true baptism of fire on the day of Pentecost (Acts. 2:1-4). Prior to this, they had no understanding of the resurrection and the baptism of fire except in a physical sense. Thus, it is no wonder that the masses of Christians do not understand the earth being baptized in fire. They must have a revelation from the Holy Spirit.
We will examine the word “fire” to show that it has many definitions on a literal, figurative, and symbolic level. People of the biblical era believed that fire was of supernatural origin. It should be noted that there were many cultures that believed the earth would be destroyed by fire long before Israel was formed as a nation. Due to space limitation the basis of their beliefs will not be discussed.
The tabernacle pattern and modern science will be used to aid in the correct interpretation of the end of the world. Finally, we will show that the events to end this age are a hidden mystery that only God knows and are only understood in analogies and allegories.
[/FONT](copy from McArthur's Bible commentary 2 Pet.3:7)

Hi Virgillo,
Regarding fire: I accept that the use of fire is figurative, but figurative of what? God guided Israel in a pillar of fire and of course the Apostles were baptised in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire, again reminding the 'new Israel' of the church that the 12 were to be the heads of a new people of God and that God was guiding them.

But fire is also used to explain hell and judgement. I have heard theologians I respect explaining that when the gospels say Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with Fire, it actually means he will save some and damn others to hell! He is the judge! In other words, fire is not always a positive thing in the bible. It can be God's consuming fire of judgement and hell and burning the bull on Mt Carmel. Or it can represent God's guidance and protection of his people.

As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:
About the destroying of heaven and earth here is the word of Jesus, Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it has been said to the ancients, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt render to the Lord what thou hast sworn.

v.34 But *I* say unto you, Do not swear at all; neither by the heaven, because it is [the] throne of God;

v.35 nor by the earth, because it is [the] footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is [the] city of the great King.

v.36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

v.37 But let your word be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; but what is more than these is from evil.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

Re: Earth not renewed?
"As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new"

What do you make of Romans where creation itself groans for change? What do you make of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which predicts the universe will one day burn all matter and leave behind a soup of dead photons in which nothing else will exist? Things have to be renewed. We live in a universe where space/time itself has been marred by sin. The Kingdom of God is NOT just in men, nor was Jesus redemption only for mankind. For we see in the resurrection of Jesus new body not just the salvation of mankind, but the renewal of creation. Jesus death was the end of the world, and the beginning of the new world. The end of our world is still working its way towards God's final judgement, when he will bring the 'new Jerusalem' down out of heaven, which is picture language for our new home where heaven and earth meet together and God again lives with humankind. Amen and Amen!

 

[eclipsenow]

It is incredible how SO many have fallen SO deeply into the gnostic preterist deception.
Not that it endangers one salvation. That was obviously sealed at the cross by Messiah. No, I suppose theology make no difference at all. John 3:16

But I guess it does lend one to be more easily deceived when the prophecies begin to unfold, the seals opened and the destruction beginning.
Futurists such as myself can not possibly be deceived....we wait, wait, wait. Each leader that arises is looked at and his actions judged. Yes, we are patiently(in some cases) waiting for that little horn to come out of the beasts head. All the while for the most part we are still working for the Lord, helping the poor, freeing the enslaved, housing the widow. We love our brothers no less than the preterist.
No, we just won't allow ourselves to be convinced of the OLD lie of lies. That we are gods, or we are christs.

1. Why would God answer the Roman persecution of the church in John's generation, who had just seen their Messiah crucified, resurrected, and then ascend to heaven, with "You think you've got it bad, wait till you see what happens in 2014!!!!" What a terrible view of God's compassion?

2. If Revelation is mainly about our generation (what a conceited view!), what good has it been to Christians for the last 2000 years?

3. What do you do with the very first verse of the book where John explains that these things were to happen SOON!?

Man cannot make clean what satan has made filthy. Yes, we allowed it, and as individuals we have freewill to turn away from sin and put forth good fruit, but in the end the nonbelievers will do the same, revering all but one commandment, YOU MUST HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME! Including ourselves or the evil beautiful one to come.

I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say here. I know, to my great shame, that even as a Christian I break all 10 commandments all the time. If not outwardly, then inwardly in my mind. And I repent, and ask the Lord for his forgiveness, and rely on his mercy. Because I know I am a sinner. If I, a Christian, can be this dark, how on earth can you think unbelievers will 'revere all but one' commandment?

Once again I see futurist views of Revelation breaking normal theology in other clearer areas of the bible.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hello interpreter greetings,
No, it will not be like Mars without sea. Sea is a figurative word that signifies
sin. see Genesis 1:2-3 And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
v.3 And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.
Here we see that the earth is waste and empty,the darkness was on the face of the deep meaning that there are no silence or peace because of the fallen angel who rebel against God and we can observed that the Spirit of God is hovering over the face of the water or God has control on the ongoing mess till God declared that there be light and God see the light is good,
It is the same of the new earth and new heaven, we shall be created as na new creation and the sea will be gone which means that the sin of man will be forgiven.

Correct: but the theologians I read would say the sea is symbolic of chaos and disorder, not necessarily sin itself. Maybe a result of sin or rebellion? Maybe not; there had been no rebellion on the first 'day' of creation.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth - Such a heaven and earth that they might properly be called new; such transformations, and such changes in their appearance, that they seemed to be just created. He does not say that they were created now, or anew; that the old heavens and earth were annihilated; but all that he says is, that there were such changes that they seemed to be new. If the earth is to be renovated by fire, such a renovation will give an appearance to the globe as if it were created anew, and might be attended with such an apparent change in the heavens that they might be said to be new. The description here Revelation 21:1 relates to scenes after the general resurrection and the judgment - for those events are detailed in the close of the previous chapter. In regard to the meaning of the language here, see the notes on 2 Peter 3:13.

As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh, but the earth standeth for ever.
Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

No, the laws of thermodynamics that God has built into this universe indicate it will run down. Time itself will stop when everything that can happen has happened. Google entropy or 'heat death of the universe'. To have life continue in this universe, it requires such a fundamental upgrading that it can be thought of as Universe 2.0. But that does not mean we can disregard this creation as 'bad', rather as stained. It will be like when a major new upgrade comes to your computer; (hopefully, if you run a Mac! ) the new one works better, is faster, and makes more sense; but there is still continuity with the old one.

The best analogy I've read comes from the C.S.Lewis Narnia series in the "Last Battle". The New Narnia was recognisable, but bigger, more splendid, more real. But there was some continuity. Everything good about the old Narnia was there. But better.

 

[virgilio]

Correct: but the theologians I read would say the sea is symbolic of chaos and disorder, not necessarily sin itself. Maybe a result of sin or rebellion? Maybe not; there had been no rebellion on the first 'day' of creation.

[FONT=&quot]How does the War of the Angels help solve the apparent paradox between an Earth that science claims is billions of years old while some theologians teach that Genesis records that God created the heavens and the Earth only 6,000 years ago? The war occurred in the realm of spirit but also had devastating consequences for the planet Earth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. 2 And the Earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] KJV [/FONT]
The sentence in Gen. 1:1, In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth, can be treated as a statement that stands by itself. Millions or billion of years passed between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2. Instead of Genesis 1 being about how God created the heavens and Earth in seven days, it is about how God repaired (renewed) the Earth in seven days. The renewing was necessary because of the terrible cataclysm that had wiped all life off of the face of the Earth. The tragic event that required God to personally come down and repair the Earth was the War of the Angels. It was Lucifer who was responsible for plunging the planet into frozen darkness.

Ezekiel 28:13 thou wast in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the chrysolite, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the carbuncle, and the emerald, and gold. The workmanship of thy tambours and of thy pipes was in thee: in the day that thou wast created were they prepared.

v.14 Thou wast the anointed covering cherub, and I had set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou didst walk up and down in the midst of stones of fire.

v.15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways, from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.
[FONT=&quot]Jude 1:6 And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to [the] judgment of [the] great day;[/FONT]

No, the laws of thermodynamics that God has built into this universe indicate it will run down. Time itself will stop when everything that can happen has happened. Google entropy or 'heat death of the universe'. To have life continue in this universe, it requires such a fundamental upgrading that it can be thought of as Universe 2.0. But that does not mean we can disregard this creation as 'bad', rather as stained. It will be like when a major new upgrade comes to your computer; (hopefully, if you run a Mac! ) the new one works better, is faster, and makes more sense; but there is still continuity with the old one.

The best analogy I've read comes from the C.S.Lewis Narnia series in the "Last Battle". The New Narnia was recognisable, but bigger, more splendid, more real. But there was some continuity. Everything good about the old Narnia was there. But better.

Heaven and earth shall remain and need not worry about the heat death that shall come in earth.
2 Peter 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which [the] heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and [the] elements, burning with heat, shall melt?

Romans 8:23 And not only [that], but even *we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, [that is] the redemption of our body.

Philippians 3:20-21 for *our* commonwealth has its existence in [the] heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ [as] Saviour,

v.21 who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of [the] power which he has even to subdue all things to himself.
Thanks and God bless
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[eclipsenow]

Umm, no. I don't think you can try and fit the days of creation into a scientific context. They are symbolic and full of meaning, and 'true' as far as their symbolic meaning goes. But they are nothing more. Don't even try and fit them and science together.

Genesis is about *why* we are here, not *how* we got here.

http://www.iscast.org/journal/articles/Dickson_J_2008-03_Genesis_Of_Everything.pdf

The same with verses about the renewal of this creation. Don't even TRY and fit them together with science. The only reason I mentioned the heat death of the universe was to illustrate just how fundamentally this Earth will have to be 'upgraded' to last forever; how will God replace the sun, which will burn though all its fuel?

Anyway, this is degrading into semantics. I know the verses you are quoting, but just read them differently. Quite differently.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Creation itself seems to be impatient for the renewal of all things. Neither you nor I can be too dogmatic about how that will work out in science; given that the picture language of the bible doesn't do so either. But we have glorious pictures! Death gone! Things lasting forever! That, from my limited understanding of science, requires a fundamental re-writing of the laws of physics and upgrading of this world. Jesus body was 'upgraded' when it was resurrected. So there will be continuity as well. So in a sense I agree with you and think this world WILL last forever. In some way. But I think it will be Earth 2.0, MORE REAL, more eternal, more beautiful. Anything beyond that I cannot say.

 

[virgilio]

Hi Virgillo,
Regarding fire: I accept that the use of fire is figurative, but figurative of what? God guided Israel in a pillar of fire and of course the Apostles were baptised in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire, again reminding the 'new Israel' of the church that the 12 were to be the heads of a new people of God and that God was guiding them.

Fire being figurative doesn't mean always figurative but sometimes is literal.
Fire is also use as to symbolize the glory of God.
Deuteronomy 5:23-24 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, and the mountain burned with fire, that ye came near to me, all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

v.24 and ye said, Behold, Jehovah our God has shewn us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice from the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God talks with man, and he lives.

But fire is also used to explain hell and judgement. I have heard theologians I respect explaining that when the gospels say Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with Fire, it actually means he will save some

Agree, he judge;John 12:48 He that rejects me and does not receive my words, has him who judges him: the word which I have spoken, that shall judge him in the last day.

and damn others to hell! He is the judge! In other words, fire is not always a positive thing in the bible. It can be God's consuming fire of judgement and hell and burning the bull on Mt Carmel. Or it can represent God's guidance and protection of his people.

Hebrew 12:28-29 Wherefore let us, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken, have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.
v.29 For also our God [is] a consuming fire.

Re: Earth not renewed?

What do you make of Romans where creation itself groans for change? What do you make of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which predicts the universe will one day burn all matter and leave behind a soup of dead photons in which nothing else will exist? Things have to be renewed. We live in a universe where space/time itself has been marred by sin. The Kingdom of God is NOT just in men, nor was Jesus redemption only for mankind. For we see in the resurrection of Jesus new body not just the salvation of mankind, but the renewal of creation. Jesus death was the end of the world, and the beginning of the new world. The end of our world is still working its way towards God's final judgement, when he will bring the 'new Jerusalem' down out of heaven, which is picture language for our new home where heaven and earth meet together and God again lives with humankind. Amen and Amen!

"As what I have explain earlier the heaven and earth to be created is the man's inner being which shall be regenerated spiritually. 2 Corinthians 5;17 So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new"
New Jerusalem is figurative and do not think that it was a literal city or another earth which shall come down from heaven like NIBIRU asteroids that shall fall in earth because if so happen we shall all perish.

No literal new heaven and earth will be created but it is the new creation which dwelt in righteousness.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[virgilio]

Hi eclipsenow,
quote]The same with verses about the renewal of this creation. Don't even TRY and fit them together with science. The only reason I mentioned the heat death of the universe was to illustrate just how fundamentally this Earth will have to be 'upgraded' to last forever; how will God replace the sun, which will burn though all its fuel?

Anyway, this is degrading into semantics. I know the verses you are quoting, but just read them differently. Quite differently.[/quote]
And I want to share you some difference in our reading.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

The difference is the whole creation groans and suffers the pain of childbirth until now waiting eagerly and yet still striving to be born again to be qualify to be adopted as children of God but they failed to know how to be born again by spirit of God.
Romans 8:26 And in like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Many are knowledgeable in Scripture and can read sign and prophecies about the endtimes but do not understand if what is the word that Spirit groans to intercede for us which cannot be uttered.as Paul experienced in
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 Well, it is not of profit to me to boast, for I will come to visions and revelations of [the] Lord.

v.2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago, (whether in [the] body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows such [a one] caught up to [the] third heaven.

v.3 And I know such a man, (whether in [the] body or out of the body I know not, God knows

v.4 that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter.
A believer must know and understand this word for spiritual edification that without it no man can inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after love, and be emulous of spiritual [manifestations], but rather that ye may prophesy.

v.2 For he that speaks with a tongue does not speak to men but to God: for no one hears; but in spirit he speaks mysteries.

v.3 But he that prophesies speaks to men [in] edification, and encouragement, and consolation.

v.4 He that speaks with a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies [the] assembly.

Thanks and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio

 

[Achilles6129]

So let's get this discussion back on topic.

For thousands of years people have awaited Christ's arrival, with no such return in sight. We are warned more than once in the Scripture that it will be awhile by human standards, e.g.:

"5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." Mt. 25:5

The reason why Christ tarries, of course, is given by Peter, who says that he waits for the last person to be saved. The question, then, still remains - when will Christ return?

We still don't have an antichrist or world government (which we need in order for Revelation to happen). This is why I place the Second Coming sometime in the future decades (2030s).

However, Christ does say that at "an hour that you think not" the Son of Man comes.

The only place in the Bible where I can find a possible time of the Second Coming would be in Psalm 90 (written by Moses). If the seventy or eighty years refer to Israel's existence as a state, those years would end at 2018 or 2028.

If this interpretation is correct, and the length of time is eighty years (implied, since it is the greater number that is mentioned), then this points strongly to the Second Coming being after 2028 (perhaps the early 2030s).

That's the best that I've been able to come up with as far as a timeframe.

 

[dfw69]

So, what year range do you think Jesus Christ will return? Vote in the poll and then post your reason for your vote.

I think Christ will return in the 2030s for several reasons:

1) The 2030s will be exactly 2000 years after Christ left. God has a thing with numbers, and Christ has a 1000 year reign. It could be that Jesus Christ returns 2000 years after he ascended into heaven.

2) The timing is simply not right at this moment. We need a one world government before anything in the book of Revelation can begin happening, and it is going to take some time to set up a one world government (many legal hurdles, etc.). As soon as the one world government is in place the antichrist will appear. I think this will begin in the mid-to-late 2020s.

idk......but Jesus will return after these events have taken placed

1 a false christ comes
2 a false messiah comes after him and destroys the false christ
3 the false messiah seeks to establish a one world order under the guise of a false millenium
4 10 kingdoms shall rise
5 Babylon the city will be rebuilt
6 Ezekiels millennial temple will be rebuilt
7 this falling away of a false messiah and false millenium will last a short space
8 then the true Antichrist comes and destroys the pretense millenium before him
9 the wrath of God begins
10 Antichrist sets a golem in the already built temple and great tribulation begins
11 Then the return of the true messiah Jesus with all his saints

until all this is accomplished....Jesus will not come.....so if anyone says "the day of the lord has come..... come see him, he is in israel"...... do not believe it

Luke 17:23

"They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them.

Matthew 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

Mark 13:21 "And then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ'; or, 'Behold, He is there'; do not believe him;

Luke 21:8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.

 

[dfw69]

So let's get this discussion back on topic.

For thousands of years people have awaited Christ's arrival, with no such return in sight. We are warned more than once in the Scripture that it will be awhile by human standards, e.g.:

"5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." Mt. 25:5

The reason why Christ tarries, of course, is given by Peter, who says that he waits for the last person to be saved. The question, then, still remains - when will Christ return?

We still don't have an antichrist or world government (which we need in order for Revelation to happen). This is why I place the Second Coming sometime in the future decades (2030s).

However, Christ does say that at "an hour that you think not" the Son of Man comes.

The only place in the Bible where I can find a possible time of the Second Coming would be in Psalm 90 (written by Moses). If the seventy or eighty years refer to Israel's existence as a state, those years would end at 2018 or 2028.

If this interpretation is correct, and the length of time is eighty years (implied, since it is the greater number that is mentioned), then this points strongly to the Second Coming being after 2028 (perhaps the early 2030s).

That's the best that I've been able to come up with as far as a timeframe.

Timeframe?.....

The falling away is yet to come ....what causes the falling away?......a deception by mystery babylon causes the falling away........Mystery babylon will deceive the world and create a one world government........How?.....by creating a false messiah and false millenium.......Mystery babylon's false millenium will last a short space......How long is a short space is not known? .....Mystery Babylon will have us believe that the false millenium it will create will last 1000 years........yet God will cut her down in her prime when she boast...."i sit a queen and am not a widow and shall see no sorrow.......

the last 7 years will be the fulfillment of Revelations......and Antichrist will come and defeat this false deception of a false millenium created by mystery Babylon....and God will destroy the city of Babylon......

For Babylon to become a great city requires time.......and it has not even begun yet.....

 

[John 07]

So, what year range do you think Jesus Christ will return?

only Harold Camping knows

 

[Achilles6129]

Well, I disagree with your list of events that precede Christ's return, but regardless, here are some things I think are important:

1) There have to be really bad things happening with the weather.

Christ mentions the "sea and waves roaring" (a comment which I've always found to be very interesting). Christ also mentions that the plagues will be so great that men's hearts will be failing. Clearly, terrible things are going on with the weather.

2) Obviously, there has to be an antichrist who governs the world. This individual will arrive with advanced technology (power/signs/lying wonders).

One more word on the weather - we have been seeing (for the past several decades) an increase in bizarre weather. It is my belief that this is a precurser to the events mentioned by Jesus Christ and the events in the book of Revelation.

The temple does have to be rebuilt but this could very well be during the reign of the antichrist. Whether it is the Ezekiel temple is up for debate in my opinion, since the Ezekiel temple could be built during the reign of the Messiah.

As far as Babylon being rebuilt, the Babylon in Revelation is symbolic of an entity during the end times. It does not at all have to be the historical city of Babylon.

Overall, I think the things we need to be watching for are the weather (climate change) and the state of a New World Order.

 

[dfw69]

Well, I disagree with your list of events that precede Christ's return, but regardless, here are some things I think are important:

1) There have to be really bad things happening with the weather.

Christ mentions the "sea and waves roaring" (a comment which I've always found to be very interesting). Christ also mentions that the plagues will be so great that men's hearts will be failing. Clearly, terrible things are going on with the weather.

2) Obviously, there has to be an antichrist who governs the world. This individual will arrive with advanced technology (power/signs/lying wonders).

One more word on the weather - we have been seeing (for the past several decades) an increase in bizarre weather. It is my belief that this is a precurser to the events mentioned by Jesus Christ and the events in the book of Revelation.

The temple does have to be rebuilt but this could very well be during the reign of the antichrist. Whether it is the Ezekiel temple is up for debate in my opinion, since the Ezekiel temple could be built during the reign of the Messiah.

As far as Babylon being rebuilt, the Babylon in Revelation is symbolic of an entity during the end times. It does not at all have to be the historical city of Babylon.

Overall, I think the things we need to be watching for are the weather (climate change) and the state of a New World Order.

we shall see if this coming antichrist will infact be the true antichrist or just a scheme and a hoax to decieve that the end has come......

we will see if the coming of the messiah will infact be the true messiah or just another scheme and a hoax to decieve that the day of the lord has come.....

and this messiah will build ezek temple for that is one of the messianic prophecies.....

what happens after this?....well the millenium of course.....yet will it be the true mellinium of Jesus or a false messiah?.....

and for me imo ...he will be false and if a false messiah then Jesus is still yet to return after him.....this false messiah will rule under the torah....Jesus will not.....this false messiah will judge and condemn as if he was Jesus but jesus judges by the law of sowing and reaping ......the false messiah will judge by false accusatons of idolatry fornications ect.....

the true antichrist and true messiah will yet come....what is to come is a deception of mystery babylon of a false christ followed by a false messiah and a false millenium.....this deception and hoax will be great in that all the unknown technology will be used to decieve...... do not believe it or go after them....for it will be a great lie....many will fall away and believe this lie forced upon the world of a messiah and millenium.....

but the end is not yet....peace

 

[youngdisciplectl3]

I think between 2012-2020.

Russia and China preparing for war with U.S. Economic collapse looming in America and happening globaly. All the globalists are saying this is the perfect oppurtunity for an NWO because whenever there is a great problem, they can offer a great solution that ppl would not usualy accept. But when people are desperate, never underestimate what they will do or accept. Lots of signs and evidence that I will not bore you all with.

But, who knows exactly when. Based on the signs Jesus gave, I will say in faith that unless I die before my time, I will see the return of our Lord.