Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Avodat]

We are working out the fine points and it has not been decided. She is expressing her wishes and also trying to accomodate yours (global). Give her some slack Brother Avodat, she's not some kid off the street but a forum Advisor. This is a work in progress. Thank you.

Shalom

So far she has made two categorical statements that there will be no debate on our threads - how is that not definitive?

She has also decided upon debate tags, which implies that debate will, in fact, be permitted

Am I the only one who sees some disconnect between those two statements?

I also am not 'a kid off the street', as you are well aware, but I do expect people in officialdom, when they make definitive statements not to contradict themselves. When they do people naturally start pressing for more information. If all this is still ongoing and no definitive decisions have been made then maybe statements should be clear that they are only personal views

 

[Chaplain David]

So far she has made two categorical statements that there will be no debate on our threads - how is that not definitive?

She has also decided upon debate tags, which implies that debate will, in fact, be permitted

Am I the only one who sees some disconnect between those two statements?

I also am not 'a kid off the street', as you are well aware, but I do expect people in officialdom, when they make definitive statements not to contradict themselves. When they do people naturally start pressing for more information. If all this is still ongoing and no definitive decisions have been made then maybe statements should be clear that they are only personal views

I hear you but let us just go with the process. Other things have been said as well and we are not here to debate each other. Asking a question is perfectly acceptable however. But making comments about each other are not helpful. Just ask Tish. Not sure of her schedule today but she'll answer you. Also, Ed is leading this effort, talk with Ed. Make sense? Shalom.

 

[Qnts2]

Many folks are being accused of being two house or one law or many other labels by others who have no right to place such labels on them, many are saying THIS forum is two house or one law or Rabbinc, and this group or this
Place does not have to defend against such attacks on its character so sorry but no name calling or labling allowed

Tish,

I have discussed these theologies also. Do you forbid the discussion of these theologies?

Messianic Judaism considers One Law theology and Two House theology and Replacement theology heresy.

My question was simple, if this forum supports and protects One Law, or Two House or Replacement theology, which Messianic Judaism has renounced, is this really a Messianic Judaism forum?

It would be the same for Baptist. If a Baptist labeled forum, supports infant baptism, is it really a Baptist forum?

 

[GuardianShua]

Tish,

I have discussed these theologies also. Do you forbid the discussion of these theologies?

Messianic Judaism considers One Law theology and Two House theology and Replacement theology heresy.

My question was simple, if this forum supports and protects One Law, or Two House or Replacement theology, which Messianic Judaism has renounced, is this really a Messianic Judaism forum?

It would be the same for Baptist. If a Baptist labeled forum, supports infant baptism, is it really a Baptist forum?

Don't Messianics believe Yahshua replaced the Levitical priesthood? Or broke down the middle wall partition of the Mosaic laws?

 

[Qnts2]

Don't Messianics believe Yahshua replaced the Levitical priesthood? Or broke down the middle wall partition of the Mosaic laws?

I can't speak for all Messianics as this is an area with some variations in views.

I'll give my view.

At this time, some Jewish people are saved, but the nation of Israel is not saved. The Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel for all generations. That means the the nation of Israel is obligated to the Mosaic covenant, until they accept Jesus.

The Levites are the priesthood of the Mosaic covenant. There will be a regathering of the Jewish people into the land, in an unbelieving state. The Temple will be built which means the Levitical priests will be serving in the Temple. In the future, all children of Israel who are alive and see Yeshua return, will believe and come under the New Covenant.

Yeshua is the High Priest in the New Covenant. All believers are called priests. In the millenial reign, there will be a Temple. Sacrifices are mentioned in scripture. I am assuming that these sacrifices in Jerusalem, in the Temple, will be done by the Levitical priests.

So today, for those obligated to the Mosaic covenant, which would be the Jewish people who have not accepted Yeshua, the Mosaic covenant is still in effect with the Levitical priesthood.

I do not view the Mosaic law as the middle wall of partition between the Jewish people and the Gentile people. (although certain aspects of the Mosaic law are laws to keep the Jewish people unique as a people, and separated us from the surrounding peoples). The middle wall of partition was the covenants. We were not one people. Now, we are one people, in the New Covenant, the same body. Before, the Jewish people were under the Mosaic covenant, and receivers of the promises concerning the linage of the Messiah.

 

[anisavta]

Do I see a serious hijack here to begin another debate? Seriously people, can we stay on task so we can finish this process?

 

[Chaplain David]

Do I see a serious hijack here to begin another debate? Seriously people, can we stay on task so we can finish this process?

Yes we should stay on topic. It'll work better that way. Thanks Sister Ani.

 

[Yahudim]

So far she has made two categorical statements that there will be no debate on our threads - how is that not definitive?

She has also decided upon debate tags, which implies that debate will, in fact, be permitted

Am I the only one who sees some disconnect between those two statements?

I also am not 'a kid off the street', as you are well aware, but I do expect people in officialdom, when they make definitive statements not to contradict themselves. When they do people naturally start pressing for more information. If all this is still ongoing and no definitive decisions have been made then maybe statements should be clear that they are only personal views

Shalom Avodat and Shalom All,

The more I read in this thread and in the New Icon thread, the more I am getting concerned. Beside the benefit of a 'safe haven' there is the very real concern that we are going to lose something precious. A dear friend wrote me recently and said, "I took a look at what is going on in MJ lately... I have some concerns. In the staff member discussion thread, there is a conclusion that AB is equal to CD and both are under the MJ umbrella. What is not addressed is if it is outside of Yeshua style halacha and [inside the] more interpretive Pauline style [that has led the Church to misinterpret much of Paul's letters concerning Torah and Grace]..."

The sentiment communicated to me is that every group wishes to be able to freely express the logic that has brought them to their particular beliefs. This is expressed through halachah and m'drash. It is a form of analysis and debate as old as Judaism itself.

Putting people of opposing beliefs in the same forum simply because they choose the same name and mandating that they not debate their core beliefs or their application of those beliefs in real life situations not only censors each person's ability to prove their beliefs (a very biblical concept), but it also favors one side over the other. The disputed doctrinal belief is of course, Torah observance. And a foundational belief among the Torah observant Messianic frames how Tanakh and Brith Chadasha are interpreted. This is subsequently proved and demonstrated through m'drash and halacha.

In that there seems to be an influx of new 'Messianic believers' that subscribe to the Greco-Roman interpretation of modern Christianity, the voice of the Torah observant of Messianic Judaism will soon be diluted. Add to that a restriction on debating our core values and the evangelical premise of a Torah observant lifestyle will quickly become overwhelmed and ineffectual.

There has been much accomplished recently to protect the Torah observant in this forum. For that I am very grateful, But I would hate to see these gains put in jeopardy by moving too fast in setting up new rules. Again I would urge that we see if what we have accomplished so far will work to everyone's satisfaction before making any more changes.

 

[Henaynei]

Well not up for debate. Mjs are for the most part kosher, or at
Least the majority is, should that be debatable if its a common practise

No, not debate per se, but my impression of MarkR's suggestion was that and the other topics noted were off limits, not just off limits for debate.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Lulav]

Watch your thoughts; they become words.

Watch your words; they become actions.

Watch your actions; they become habits.

Watch your habits; they become character.

Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
- - Frank Outlaw

Why was my post edited? Does this break some new law?

I thought we were being asked for debate rules. They seemed very cumbersome to me and I came across this quote will using Stumble Upon and thought is was a lot more to the point then a bunch of rules that say , you can't do this and you can't do that like this is a secular forum.

While this person may not be a believer, what he says can be taken in a spiritual way. If a quote like this is posted in a debate area, perhaps the ones wishing to enter into debate will take this to heart and 'watch their words as they do become your destiny, or in our case have a big effect on our eternal being.

 

[Lulav]

Who is the mystery poster on threads 952 and 953?

I'm not a mystery Avodat, my name is still there, I just changed the color of it. I guess depending on which skin you use some can't see it.

But either way, the Lulav is still there, see, among the Magen Davids? the 'palm branch', that is a Lulav. It is waved before the King.

 

[jcpro]

Shalom Avodat and Shalom All,

The more I read in this thread and in the New Icon thread, the more I am getting concerned. Beside the benefit of a 'safe haven' there is the very real concern that we are going to lose something precious. A dear friend wrote me recently and said, "I took a look at what is going on in MJ lately... I have some concerns. In the staff member discussion thread, there is a conclusion that AB is equal to CD and both are under the MJ umbrella. What is not addressed is if it is outside of Yeshua style halacha and [inside the] more interpretive Pauline style [that has led the Church to misinterpret much of Paul's letters concerning Torah and Grace]..."

The sentiment communicated to me is that every group wishes to be able to freely express the logic that has brought them to their particular beliefs. This is expressed through halachah and m'drash. It is a form of analysis and debate as old as Judaism itself.

Putting people of opposing beliefs in the same forum simply because they choose the same name and mandating that they not debate their core beliefs or their application of those beliefs in real life situations not only censors each person's ability to prove their beliefs (a very biblical concept), but it also favors one side over the other. The disputed doctrinal belief is of course, Torah observance. And a foundational belief among the Torah observant Messianic frames how Tanakh and Brith Chadasha are interpreted. This is subsequently proved and demonstrated through m'drash and halacha.

In that there seems to be an influx of new 'Messianic believers' that subscribe to the Greco-Roman interpretation of modern Christianity, the voice of the Torah observant of Messianic Judaism will soon be diluted. Add to that a restriction on debating our core values and the evangelical premise of a Torah observant lifestyle will quickly become overwhelmed and ineffectual.

There has been much accomplished recently to protect the Torah observant in this forum. For that I am very grateful, But I would hate to see these gains put in jeopardy by moving too fast in setting up new rules. Again I would urge that we see if what we have accomplished so far will work to everyone's satisfaction before making any more changes.

The way this are going the little Judaism that remains here will be exorcised entirely.

 

[Chaplain David]

The way this are going the little Judaism that remains here will be exorcised entirely.

I do not believe that and if that were the case which it is not I would be fighting against it. Please try some positive attitude and trust. We aren't just juvenile deliquents who mess around on the internet. All of us are professional people, ardent Christians, in Tish's case MJ, and volunteer our time to CF which we care a great deal about. We also care about you.

Right now we are focusing our care, hope, forum expertise, and yearning in MJ. There have been problems here and we, along with you, will make things better.

Shalom

David

 

[Avodat]

I'm not a mystery Avodat, my name is still there, I just changed the color of it. I guess depending on which skin you use some can't see it.

But either way, the Lulav is still there, see, among the Magen Davids? the 'palm branch', that is a Lulav. It is waved before the King.

Ah, OK. All these different faces being parachuted in - I wondered who it was as there was no visible name but it was someone who had racked up a lot of posts and reps though. No problem

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Henaynei and Anasavta, thanks for sharing your concerns.

Maaan, that depends on "debate." Discussion with strongly held opinions can dialogue back and forth without bloodletting.

The way I read it MarkR's post it looked like those things would not be allowed to be discussed

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Well not up for debate. Mjs are for the most part kosher, or at
Least the majority is, should that be debatable if its a common practise

Regime?
Law against debate?
Isn't that a little dramatic?
Are you not tracking with the posts?

No, not debate per se, but my impression of MarkR's suggestion was that and the other topics noted were off limits, not just off limits for debate.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

off topic /no debate topics

• Kosher diet
• MJ observance of torah
• Who is MJ enough
• Trinity

Ok, I'll try and address this as best I can; I will start from the bottom up:

Trinity: This one is easy, Christian Forums SoF is the Nicene Creed; debate by anyone in any forum against the Trinity is therefore not allowed. It is included here because (as Tish stated earlier in the thread) there are non-trinitarian members of this forum, they may post here, but may not post against trinitarian doctrine, nor promote non-trinitarian theology either.

Who is MJ enough: This one is easy too; note our rule and the parts which I highlighted in red, and my notes in green:

Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian. (My note: MJs are considered Christians, this rule includes stating or implying that some are not or less MJ/Christian than others)
● Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them. (This addresses the trinity)
● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
● Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.

If a non member is present and being disruptive; report them. If you believe that someone is using an icon of convenience to disrupt your forum; report them. State your reasons in the report, and staff will review it, and action it accordingly... it's what we do!

Kosher diet and MJ observance of torah: As per Tish's reply;

Well not up for debate. Mjs are for the most part kosher, or at
Least the majority is, should that be debatable if its a common practise

Discussion is fine, but debating that "my way is better than your way" or you "must do this, that and/or the other thing" will not be allowed; however it's fine to state that "for me I believe that I must..." or "while I do 'this'; I may not do 'that'", would be OK providing that one does not cross the line with the flaming rules I quoted above. Debating against Kosher or Torah, whether by a member or non member is not allowed in this proposal.

It is not our desire to stifle meaningful discussion and debate; it is, however our desire to protect the members of the MJ fora, and (all) the members here from attack and harrasment; regardless of their personal levels of observance and adherence to the Torah and Kosher.

I hope that this clarifies things.

Mark

 

[Tishri1]

So far she has made two categorical statements that there will be no debate on our threads - how is that not definitive?

She has also decided upon debate tags, which implies that debate will, in fact, be permitted

Am I the only one who sees some disconnect between those two statements?

I also am not 'a kid off the street', as you are well aware, but I do expect people in officialdom, when they make definitive statements not to contradict themselves. When they do people naturally start pressing for more information. If all this is still ongoing and no definitive decisions have been made then maybe statements should be clear that they are only personal views

If you are unsure of what I am saying ask me.


I think everyone who has been thru this with me before knows I will not agree with everything asked here but I will try to look at all sides of the issue before finalizing things

 

[Tishri1]

MJ is not unorthodox I don't know where that came from, we fall in line with the CF SOF and are not an unorthodox theology.

Don't worry we are not done hashing things out, we may have some light debate or a debate tag of sorts in here if we can get all our ducks in a row....oh and I don't have a regime in here
.Yet

I understand that under your regime there is now to be a law against debate on any MJ fora. However, as you are making it illegal, we need 'debate' defined, as opposed to discussion, or it will be impossible to avoid the word police.

You see I do not understand what is going on here, but maybe I've not been here long enough to understand such going's on. But I thought that MJism has it's own fora, being classed as Unorthodox Theology to give it its own safe area (think I saw that somewhere in the SoP) because, presumably, to bring it under GT was to hang MJ's out to dry. Now that is being reversed and you want MJ's who wish to debate their own particular beliefs to go air them on GT and be slaughtered (according to what some say on here).

So is MJism no longer to be classed as Unorthodox Theology (whatever that might mean - but that would need to be debated, which we cannot do!)?

 

[Tishri1]

Perhaps Lulav?

Loved your word "regime" in your previous post. I was thinking of cartel/cabal, just a passing whimsy of course.

Not many of us blood Jews left. Reminds me of Ignatius of Antioch on to Chrysostum and beyond. This is becoming very Xtian, it seems.

Power issues? Position in peril? Quisas, quisas, quisas.

I wouldn't even have to be In Here if folks here learned some manners.

It's too easy to be polite to those around you,

I think some are convinced that no one will pay attention to them unless they act up. But believe me when I say it's far better to be polite and caring.

 

[Tishri1]

I cannot understand why Tishri is asking for ideas about tags for Debate or Discussion, and the need to mark threads accordingly, when she states quite emphatically (and has on more than one occasion) that debate is to be made illegal! The whole world has gone mad it seems to me.

Most of the ideas are coming from folks in this thread, I'm trying them all on to see where we will end up...all I know is we can no longer tolerate labling/name calling and also we can no longer tolerate derailing a thread or debating against common MJ teaching

Other things are open to change

We can get specific and make a short list or we can just keep it general, but so far general hasn't worked well enough to keep the peace I hear

 

[Tishri1]

Golly....I think this thread is a bit too gargantuan for me to go back and figure it all out again and repost. All I know is that I said that what I posted was just personal experience, I didn't really understand why you thought it applied to people here, as it kind of didn't.

Ahhhhh I remember it now

Yes everyone watch how your presenting personal stuff as many of the things you post are personal but implying that some here do or say the same thing , in other words try to qualify like this " I haven't seen this here on the MJ forum but in my own life..."

That will help your posts not sound like an attack on folks here ok?