Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

This is a great day in the Lord, Monday, 3-26-2012. We're going to do good things today and get a lot accomplished. I am looking forward to taking with all of you, staff and members and the work we will do together. God bless you.

Sorry Brother, but I'll be under my van with wrench in hand for most of the day. But I'll check in from time to time.

 

[aniello]

Sorry Brother, but I'll be under my van with wrench in hand for most of the day. But I'll check in from time to time.

Wanna do the head gasket on my 83 VW Turbo diesel?

May G-d expedite your safely done repairs. Be safe!!!!!

 

[Avodat]

No Brother,

Not your comments. The whole reaction to the debate thing. Thought that was apparent from my comments. Sorry for the confusion.

OK, that makes more sense! Thanks, it was just that your post popped up immediately after mine - had it appeared just before it would have read better but that is the luck of the draw when we post almost at the same time. No problem

 

[Avodat]

Sorry Brother, but I'll be under my van with wrench in hand for most of the day. But I'll check in from time to time.

obviously can't just wrench yourself away!

 

[Qnts2]

*Labels or name calling

• Non Jew
• Two house
• One law
• Gracer

I like your debate rules, but for labels....

Gentile means not Jewish or non-Jew. From experience on other forums, it becomes necessary to define Gentile. Or Goy or goyim. There tends to be confusion in these areas.

Two House (aka Ephraimite) is a theology which Messianic Judaism strongly opposes. It is also a topic discussed within Messianic Judaism. Two House proponents call themselves Two House, Ephraimites, Restoration of Israel. When referencing the beliefs of Two House theology, what are we to call it, if mentioning Two House is considered of labels of name calling?

The same issue with One Law theology. One Law theology is a theology opposed by Messianic Judaism.

The issue here is these are theologies which do not mix with Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism has taken strong stands against these two theologies. So, to mix theologies opposed by Messianic Judaism, within Messianic Judaism, would cause issues. It would be something like not allowing Baptists to oppose paedo-baptism (infant baptism) or call the doctrine paedo-baptism or infant baptism labeling or name calling.

 

[Chaplain David]

I like your debate rules, but for labels....

Gentile means not Jewish or non-Jew. From experience on other forums, it becomes necessary to define Gentile. Or Goy or goyim. There tends to be confusion in these areas.

Two House (aka Ephraimite) is a theology which Messianic Judaism strongly opposes. It is also a topic discussed within Messianic Judaism. Two House proponents call themselves Two House, Ephraimites, Restoration of Israel. When referencing the beliefs of Two House theology, what are we to call it, if mentioning Two House is considered of labels of name calling?

The same issue with One Law theology. One Law theology is a theology opposed by Messianic Judaism.

The issue here is these are theologies which do not mix with Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism has taken strong stands against these two theologies. So, to mix theologies opposed by Messianic Judaism, within Messianic Judaism, would cause issues. It would be something like not allowing Baptists to oppose paedo-baptism (infant baptism) or call the doctrine paedo-baptism or infant baptism.

RELATED QUESTIONS:

Hello, I have heard Goy and Goyim used as a put downs. I have also heard it used nicely as meaning non-Jewish. How can we insure that they are only used properly and not as put-downs? Would using "non-Jewish" be best to use instead?

Shalom

Sacerdote

 

[Qnts2]

RELATED QUESTIONS:

Hello, I have heard Goy and Goyim used as a put downs. I have also heard it used nicely as meaning non-Jewish. How can we insure that they are only used properly and not as put-downs? Would using "non-Jewish" be best to use instead?

Shalom

Sacerdote

Goy and Goyim in Hebrew means Nation and Nations.

Goy and Goyim in Yiddish mean Gentile and Gentiles. However, in Yiddish, Goy or Goyim can be used as derogatory terms also. When used in a derogatory manner, they don't really mean simply Not Jewish. When used in a sentence, for me, it is easy to tell the difference. There are standard expressions or inflections which denote the difference.

But, since Goy and Goyim are valid biblical Hebrew terms, I wouldn't want to consign these words to put downs, as that would be saying that the words God used must not be used as sinful humans have turned them into negative terms.

I have no issue with non-Jewish. The word 'Jew' is used by anti-semites in a derogatory way. By itself, Jew, is not a bad term but anti-semities don't use it positively. Anti-semites almost never use the term Jewish.

I usually recommend that Gentiles not use the term 'Jew'. It can be misunderstood.

 

[Chaplain David]

Goy and Goyim in Hebrew means Nation and Nations.

Goy and Goyim in Yiddish mean Gentile and Gentiles. However, in Yiddish, Goy or Goyim can be used as derogatory terms also. When used in a derogatory manner, they don't really mean simply Not Jewish. When used in a sentence, for me, it is easy to tell the difference. There are standard expressions or inflections which denote the difference.

But, since Goy and Goyim are valid biblical Hebrew terms, I wouldn't want to consign these words to put downs, as that would be saying that the words God used must not be used as sinful humans have turned them into negative terms.

I have no issue with non-Jewish. The word 'Jew' is used by anti-semites in a derogatory way. By itself, Jew, is not a bad term but anti-semities don't use it positively. Anti-semites almost never use the term Jewish.

Very enlightening explanations. Thank you.

Shalom

David

 

[Tishri1]

No I wouldn't use a single letter

The tag would say what I posted earlier

I know it's Monday morning but...

At the moment we can put an 'MJ Only' tag on posts. The new suggestion is that we can, instead (or as well as), put a single letter 'D' that means either Debate or Discuss. Given that only one letter (a 'D') is suggested how can one tell which is which.

Examples for thread tags being used, as has been proposed:

MJ Only Can I wear coloured socks to Shul?
MJ Only D Can I wear coloured socks to Shul? (does the 'D' mean debate?)
MJ Only D Can I wear coloured socks to Shul? (does the 'D' mean discuss?)

That is what I am asking.

 

[Henaynei]

RELATED QUESTIONS:

Hello, I have heard Goy and Goyim used as a put downs. I have also heard it used nicely as meaning non-Jewish. How can we insure that they are only used properly and not as put-downs? Would using "non-Jewish" be best to use instead?

Shalom

Sacerdote

Like in real estate they say Location, Location, Location. With Goy or Goyim it is Context, Context, Context. Remember, we've all also heard Black, Jew, White all used as epithets. In our little community here senders Must be mindful of the receivers.

Goy actually means nation, and Goyim nations. While must often used to denote non-Jewish nation or nations, Israel is called Goy throughout scripture.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you Mark

I know this looks long don't worry we will squeeze it down a bit later, first we need to get everything we need into it though

How's this for a start -

Debate Rules:

• No personal attacks on other members of the forum; only comments relating to the subject being debated will be tolerated. Do not attack your fellow debaters!
• Do not join in a debate unless you are at least somewhat knowledgeable about the subject. Also, do not post opinions or declarations without explaining your reasoning and (wherever possible) providing supporting evidence. Please try to keep an open mind when debating! And do not join a debate just for the sake of debating.
• No harsh wording or labeling*. You can debate without being inflammatory.
• Do not assume that opposing posts are a personal attack on you. Tone is very difficult to interpret online especially in a debate setting.
• Discussion of posts made in the Debate Forum in other forums will not be tolerated. When we're outside the Debate Forum we're all neutrals! Posts in the Debate Forum are not relevant to conversations outside of the Debate Forum.
• Please PM a fellow member to get permission before using their link, quotation, or ideas to begin a new debate.
• Do not create threads here for the specific purpose of inciting another member.
• Do not try to change someones opinions and/or beliefs: People have different opinions and beliefs. It is fine to share yours with the understanding that they will also share theirs - and you may never come to common ground. This is OK. Respect is key here.
• Be mature and responsible. Don't make assumptions. Try not to take comments personally.
• Avoid typing in all CAPS just to get your point across. (Netiquette: avoid the use of all CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. ALL CAPS is considered "shouting" and causes readability issues.)

• Lastly, use common sense. This is not a place to vent; it is a place to rationally discuss topics of interest. If you feel yourself getting upset by a comment...take a step back and post later. Passion is great but don't let it get out of hand. Please behave accordingly!

*Labels or name calling

• Non Jew
• Two house
• One law
• Gracer

off topic /no debate topics

• Kosher diet
• MJ observance of torah
• Who is MJ enough
• Trinity

How's that Tish?

BTW, this looks good!

 

[Lulav]

Watch your thoughts; they become words.

Watch your words; they become actions.

Watch your actions; they become habits.

Watch your habits; they become character.

Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
- - Frank Outlaw

 

[Lulav]

Like in real estate they say Location, Location, Location. With Goy or Goyim it is Context, Context, Context. Remember, we've all also heard Black, Jew, White all used as epithets. In our little community here senders Must be mindful of the receivers.

Goy actually means nation, and Goyim nations. While must often used to denote non-Jewish nation or nations, Israel is called Goy throughout scripture.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Henaynei has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.:o

 

[Henaynei]

*Labels or name calling
Non Jew
Two house
One law
Gracer


off topic /no debate topics
Kosher diet
MJ observance of torah
Who is MJ enough
Trinity

I think this is a bit too restrictive.

Non Jew - nothing wrong with this - textural context would make or break it in a post
Two house - One law - both are heresy according to MJism - as such being able to identify them is crucial in "preserving the faith" - However, using them as epithets is not

Kosher diet - Observance of Torah - both of these are integral to the practice of MJism for most, but not all, Messianics. To remove them would be akin to telling one of the other faith fora they could not discuss Baptism or Communion.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.:o

try again

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[anisavta]

I like your debate rules, but for labels....

Gentile means not Jewish or non-Jew. From experience on other forums, it becomes necessary to define Gentile. Or Goy or goyim. There tends to be confusion in these areas.

Two House (aka Ephraimite) is a theology which Messianic Judaism strongly opposes. It is also a topic discussed within Messianic Judaism. Two House proponents call themselves Two House, Ephraimites, Restoration of Israel. When referencing the beliefs of Two House theology, what are we to call it, if mentioning Two House is considered of labels of name calling?

The same issue with One Law theology. One Law theology is a theology opposed by Messianic Judaism.

The issue here is these are theologies which do not mix with Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism has taken strong stands against these two theologies. So, to mix theologies opposed by Messianic Judaism, within Messianic Judaism, would cause issues. It would be something like not allowing Baptists to oppose paedo-baptism (infant baptism) or call the doctrine paedo-baptism or infant baptism labeling or name calling.

Labels are labels. It doesn't matter how we define them. To label each other for the purpose of putting someone in their place should not be acceptable.
And again Messianic Judaism can be defined by many people in many ways. To say, "this opposes Messianic Judiasm" for one is not opposition for another.
I think we've defined Messianic Judaism back many pages ago.

 

[Qnts2]

Labels are labels. It doesn't matter how we define them. To label each other for the purpose of putting someone in their place should not be acceptable.
And again Messianic Judaism can be defined by many people in many ways. To say, "this opposes Messianic Judiasm" for one is not opposition for another.
I think we've defined Messianic Judaism back many pages ago.

I'll have to disagree. The main Messianic Judaism organizations have written position papers against these theologies. To ignore the position of Messianic Judaism is to try to alter what Messianic Judaism stands for, but the position of Messianic Judaism stands.

In religions, theologies have names as abbreviations and in the religious world, using the theological terminology is acceptable. The work done in this area by knowledgable studied theologians is for the benefit of all. To study, learn the theological system and the name of the theology is not negatively 'labeling', it is education in the religious sciences.

Messianic Judaism also opposes Replacement theology, and Dual Covenant theology. If a person proposes Replacement theology, and tries to claim it as a belief of Messianic Judaism, they would be wrong as that is a theology consistantly renounced in Messianic Judaism.

Another belief Messianic Judaism consistently teaches against is the belief that a Jewish person ceases to be Jewish when they accept Yeshua.

If we all agreed that a Jewish person ceases to be Jewish when they accept Yeshua, and say that is Messianic Judaism, we would be wrong, as Messianic Judaism organizations would renounce that belief. Just because we would agree, does not make it a doctrine of Messianic Judaism. (And I do agree with Messianic Judaism that a Jewish person who believes on Jesus, is Jewish).

 

[Tishri1]

I like these tags; however with the proposed rules for debate, I think we could omit "soft".

From a staff POV, when moderating it may be difficult to discern where "Discussion" crosses the line to "Debate". I think that such discernment would be quite subjective, and would therefore make "level" moderation difficult.

For these tags to work I think we would need to define where and how the line is crossed.

Would a discussion thread be limited only to those who post in agreement to the OP? If such would be the case, then only a debate tag would be needed.

Thoughts?

I think that's doable

Thoughts everyone?

 

[Tishri1]

You have? I haven't really noticed it.

About what? I responded a while back to something you misunderstood about a post...but that's about all.

I think you missed my response...and no, I'm just fine.

Maybe I did can you repost?

 

[Tishri1]

This is a great day in the Lord, Monday, 3-26-2012. We're going to do good things today and get a lot accomplished. I am looking forward to taking with all of you, staff and members and the work we will do together. God bless you.

God bless you too David

I think that the whole essence is all should stay away from telling one whether or not they should or must keep the commandments. In my experience this is what Messianic does and leadership that I know stays out of these types of issues it seems.

I agree this is one of the main issues