Staff and Member discussion thread.

[aniello]

I have 2 homemade from scratch steel-cut Irish oatmeal and bananna muffins..who want's em?

also have 3 bowls full of homemade mexican chicken soup.

someone out there must be hungry............

Ah, Sopa de gallo mejicano, me gusto mucho.

Cuando lo servire?

Gracias,

aniello

 

[anisavta]

And, the only place I hear 'Torah' used when people don't really mean the Torah but mean the Mosaic law, is among Two House, CTOMC, and some in MBI used to or other groups like that.

So from your statement of knowledge you are affiliated with this group too?

 

[Lulav]

Like I said before and you keep ignoring, Ani and I took the class at the MJAA conference and you are doing an injustice to the hearer as it was ment to unite folks to the Torah observant believers, not make light of Torah observance

Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.

So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.

I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.

Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.

What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".

My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"

Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?

I witnessed the same thing, you are not alone Tal.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hi!

That is exactly what I found too. The web version is much better that the video that was posted of Steve Shermett's take, as summarized to his congregation. The study itself is very interesting.

I downloaded all the files including the spreadsheet. But instead of taking the test, I have been going through and comparing his summation of the mitzvah to the associated scripture listed. So I had a little bit different take than him because of how I understand the p'sh*t. Still it is very thought provoking and a great read. As soon as I finish, I'll listen to his presentation again and take the test with a greater understanding of the actual mitvahs.

It's the same message as the other video. Except the one I posted he didn't give an explanation what he meant by 'we are not under the law' in which this audio explained it. In this audio he said there are those Messianic believers who say we don't need to follow the law anymore but they do because they love the Lord. The belief I posted said "The Law is no longer the believer's rule of life" Notice the Law no longer RULES. If the law is no longer the believers rule of life then why do they keep? The first commandment. The end result is the same. Even the audio said so too.

Interesting I find both the same 'the moral of the story is...'

 

[Yahudim]

I agree. Yeshua often engaged in traditions and did not oppose these things as long as they did not go against scripture. While Jesus was telling the people to obey those who sat on Moses seat (the law said one could not oppose or ignore a judges or priest ruling), do not do as they do.

But Yeshua did heavily criticize those Rabbinic rulings (judges) which 'made the law of no effect' or 'laid heavy burdens' on the people.

By the time much of the Talmud was written, it is fairly easy to argue that the courts were not according to the law, or were making rulings above their authority (absence of High Priest). (After Yavneh)

Sister Qnts2,

I want to offer you a formal apology. After going back and re-reading some of our exchanges, I realize that I was acting and speaking out of ignorance of both your background and your intent. You were new to this forum and I was hardly a good host, much less a brother in Messiah. Forgive me.

I think we are both pretty type A in some respects and passionate about our beliefs. But that is a good thing. Much better than lukewarm I'd wager. Nonetheless, our exchanges should not have provoked me to anger as it sometimes did. I promise to try to be more understanding and gracious in the future.

b'Shalom

 

[Qnts2]

So from your statement of knowledge you are affiliated with this group too?

I am not affiliated with Two House, CTOMC, or MBI. Or Nazarene Israel, or any of the many other groups which are too numerous to mention.

Over the years, I have discussed, disagreed and debated with the founders or leaders or people from these groups. In these debates, I did listen to what they said, so I would be familiar with what was being taught.

(I have also debated with Calvinists (five point and four point), Replacement theology believers, Covenental theology, Preterism theology (partial and full), Mid-Acts dispensationalists, Universalism, Christian Zionism (the new stuff), etc etc etc. Debating helps me to learn various views, see their proof scriptures, and see if the bible actually agrees with these views. On the internet, it does help to be able to stand up for what you believe as there are many different groups trying to gain additional followers. Some of these are variations of valid views of scripture and IMO, some are way off.

 

[Qnts2]

Sister Qnts2,

I want to offer you a formal apology. After going back and re-reading some of our exchanges, I realize that I was acting and speaking out of ignorance of both your background and your intent. You were new to this forum and I was hardly a good host, much less a brother in Messiah. Forgive me.

I think we are both pretty type A in some respects and passionate about our beliefs. But that is a good thing. Much better than lukewarm I'd wager. Nonetheless, our exchanges should not have provoked me to anger as it sometimes did. I promise to try to be more understanding and gracious in the future.

b'Shalom

Thank you very much. I am sure I said some things out of line in the heat of our exchanges. I apologize.

And I agree we are both type A and passionate.

Blessings brother,
Jan

 

[Yahudim]

Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.



I witnessed the same thing, you are not alone Tal.

Shalom Sis,

I had a very fruitful conversation with Tish. I blame myself for not being more clear. And I think my over-the-top dramatics took away from my message more than they helped. Anyway, I think you will be pleased when you hear what she has to say.

In truth, most of this disagreement over the video and other matters was simple misunderstanding and miscommunication. There was nothing intended for evil in all of this. Personally, I feel a great deal of hope and I feel confident that both the near-term and the long-term outlook is going to be mostly sunny and mild.

Thanks for being you.

Blessing to All,

 

[Yahudim]

Thank you very much. I am sure I said some things out of line in the heat of our exchanges. I apologize.

And I agree we are both type A and passionate.

Blessings brother,
Jan

Whoo Hoo! There is a celebration in the heavenlies right now! Thank you!

 

[anisavta]

Hi!

That is exactly what I found too. The web version is much better that the video that was posted of Steve Shermett's take, as summarized to his congregation. The study itself is very interesting.

I downloaded all the files including the spreadsheet. But instead of taking the test, I have been going through and comparing his summation of the mitzvah to the associated scripture listed. So I had a little bit different take than him because of how I understand the p'sh*t. Still it is very thought provoking and a great read. As soon as I finish, I'll listen to his presentation again and take the test with a greater understanding of the actual mitvahs.

I've always known we can't observe all 613 mitzvot. Common sense tells me that. But it is interesting to read each of the 613 and prayerfully see which ones do apply. And if we'd stop a moment to let the dust settle on this subject we'd see that many are, as Yeshua said, summed up in loving HaShem and each other. If we do that we'll find we are observing more of the mitzvot than we realize.

 

[Yahudim]

I've always known we can't observe all 613 mitzvot. Common sense tells me that. But it is interesting to read each of the 613 and prayerfully see which ones do apply. And if we'd stop a moment to let the dust settle on this subject we'd see that many are, as Yeshua said, summed up in loving HaShem and each other. If we do that we'll find we are observing more of the mitzvot than we realize.

Yup! Funny thing is that I was praying for understanding of the 613 when this all cropped up!

 

[anisavta]

Don't you love how HaShem finds just the right avenue for our requests even before we have time to say "thank you"?

 

[etZion]

Tish, that is a false observation, I was not ignoring you. Taking a class on the same subject is not the same thing as seeing someone else use it to their own agenda. That is the case here as Tal has tried over and over to explain. Please don't accuse me of injustly judgeing someone, I didn't read all the data that Tal did, but I read enough and heard enough to agree with what he is saying. The AMC are against Torah observance, basically calling it an fruitless endeavor.



I witnessed the same thing, you are not alone Tal.

I agree, his points miss the boat on many levels, not just in the details, to name a few..

1) The Brother marrying another brother's wife, lol, first of all, the Torah allows the brother to no do so, and also, to say that Messianics do not practice this also made me laugh, how many opportunities or chances will Messianics have to do this? Not many.

2) He never mentions Tzitzit, and quite a few others that come off the top of my head.

3) He says most MTP, do not sleep in Sukkah's for 7 days, ummmm, the only MTP that I know of that do not, have either a medical condition, are elderly or some other problem... I have done this with many others for many years.

4) He brought up how most work on the Holy days, lol, again I don't know these 'most' people, I know more people who said they are not going to work, and that they can fire them if they want, and were not fired.

5) Me and my wife went through and cleaned out our closets full of mixed wool and linen, and purchase clothing with those guidelines, and I know a bunch of other families that do as well.

His arguments are weak, and do not go through all the applicable laws. And ultimately miss the point, this is not a comparison to see who is better and who does more, I could probably come up with a list that show a 10% to 15% difference, but that is not what makes me and others Torah observant... It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.

On the other hand, I admire his seeking of unity, and I am for that, so I credit him for doing such and I do hope there can be some form of unity, even among all the disagreements.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I agree, his points miss the boat on many levels, not just in the details, to name of few..

1) The Brother marrying another brother's wife, lol, first of all, the Torah allows the brother to no do so, and also, to say that Messianics do not practice this also made me laugh, how many opportunities or chances will Messianics have to do this? Not many.

2) He never mentions Tzitzit, and quite a few others that come off the top of my head.

3) He says most MTP, do not sleep in Sukkah's for 7 days, ummmm, the only MTP that I know of that do not, have either a medical condition, are elderly or some other problem... I have done this with many others for many years.

4) He brought up how most work on the Holy days, lol, again I don't know these 'most' people, I know more people who said they are not going to work, and that they can fire them if they want, and were not fired.

5) Me and my wife went through and cleaned out our closets full of mixed wool and linen, and purchase clothing with those guidelines, and I know a bunch of other families that do as well.

His arguments are weak, and do not go through all the applicable laws. And ultimately miss the point, this is not a comparison to see who is better and who does more, I could probably come up with a list that show a 10% to 15% difference, but that is not what makes me and others Torah observant... It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.

On the other hand, I admire his seeking of unity, and I am for that, so I credit him for doing such and I do hope there can be some form of unity, even among all the disagreements.

In his defense he said MOST Torah positive. If he would have mentioned tefflin would that have made a difference. You criticized the guy and everyone criticized Tishri for posting a video that is exact.

So the audio was more eloquent? What's the deal here? The video he says we are not under the law but in the audio he says people that say that do so anyway because of the greatest commandment?

In defense of Tishri she deserves an apology seriously.

 

[etZion]

In his defense he said MOST Torah positive. If he would have mentioned tefflin would that have made a difference. You criticized the guy and everyone criticized Tishri for posting a video that is exact.

So the audio was more eloquent? What's the deal here? The video he says we are not under the law but in the audio he says people that say that do so anyway because of the greatest commandment?

In defense of Tishri she deserves an apology seriously.

I never heard the audio, I only watched the video. What audio are we talking about?

Also, how does he come to the conclusion of most, as I stated, most of the MTP I know, are different than his 'most'.

 

[Lulav]

I can tell you for a fact that I have experienced that here Sister Tishri.

Since you're looking, start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7625317/
There's a wealth of example in this thread.

What are you talking about? I had to go revisit that now discarded thread to see just what your' examples are. I'm sure Tish does not have time or means to go through that whole thread.

I did find where you called yourself a Christian though, not a Messianic. #115

And again here #137

There was a lot of railing against Rabbinic supervision and not believing in it. Even some of our non-Messianic Jews were insulted.

And I found a post that supports why those who are Torah observant do not want to be criticized for it.

This compulsion for a Messianic to be sooooo correct regarding dietary law is not observant of the freedom found in Yeshua.

In fact, it goes against Yeshua and it goes against God's gift to us in Yeshua.

This is what the problem has been about. Someone wants to be Messianic, but calls themselves Christian and mocks other Messianic's for wanting to be careful about what they eat.


In that thread you had three Messianics trying to explain that Hebrew meaning of what Yeshua taught regarding food, yet you argued against everyone, including a non Messianic Jew that said the same thing. Your understanding is from a Christian viewpoint, not a Messianic one. What you are saying in these kinds of threads is basically the law was done away with.

When I said in post 211 that "Yes, obedient enough to believe that G-ds Torah is forever. As do I."

You responded: "Then you had better be perfectly obedient to it because you are dismissing Yeshua and His words. "

This is the type of thing we are arguing against being allowed in this forum. This is what happens in GT and it's where it belongs.

You argued and argued that everything is clean to eat now, the majority of Messianics do not, this is Christian beliefs and this is what we have problems with.

Another thing that identifies a Messianic Gentile is the love for Israel and the Love for the Jewish people. Loving them enough to find their Messiah. As Sister Qnts said, MJ is supposed to be an outreach to Jews to bring them to their Messiah. How does your feelings and attitude towards Jews accomplish that?

I'm not concerned with whether I'm making a Jew stumble or not.

He has the Law for his salvation.

I have Yeshua and in Him I am free. The dietary law is not salvific.

Thanks for bringing this thread up, it helps to give examples of the problems we are having here.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I never heard the audio, I only watched the video. What audio are we talking about?

Also, how does he come to the conclusion of most, as I stated, most of the MTP I know, are different than his 'most'.

The Mosaic Laws

 

[etZion]

The Mosaic Laws

Thank you, I will give it a listen, forgive me if I am being too harsh, I talk pretty straight, but I don't mean to be too critical.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Thank you, I will give it a listen, forgive me if I am being too harsh, I talk pretty straight, but I don't mean to be too critical.

I thought you knew me by now, I can take it. My post wasn't directed at you per se. It seems like people are starting to jump on 'the bandwagon' of that audio which to me is exact to the video. And I'm scratching my head.

 

[pdudgeon]

from etZion:

It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.

now that's what i'm talkin' about. (or in other famous words, 'it's not a religion, it's a relationship')