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1. No one is called to observe exactly the same way all the time as someone else in the rest of the world. There are different flavors of Judaism the world over due to the various places Jews live. Someone in Yemen isn't going to observe Torah or the Talmud in the same way as someone in Scandinavia. Someone in South Australia won't be observing as someone in America.
We need to recognise a healthy difference in observation where this is concerned. No one is to be condemned for difference in observation, as even in America, differences are observed from shuk to shuk. No?
2. There are different interpretations of what "The law"/"the Torah" is. We need to have definable ways of understanding where everyone is posting from, and possibly which organization they align with. This would create less confusion as to where we are posting from. It is not to ghettoize anyone, but to create a level playing field where our scrolls are not giving us this.
We have individuals that say they obey Torah and are observant, and those of us who are are wondering what level of kashrut they hold to, when WHAM a post comes up by that poster that aligns more along the line of a Hebrew Christian organization that teaches against keeping Kosher on any level, and that it's silly to celebrate anything other than major Jewish holidays - we have a problem. This is where MUCH of the arguing is coming from, and no I've not participated because it has been quite difficult to suss out the different flavors of people without it ending in a tar and feathering.
3. We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.
I believe if we did a book series together as a study, perhaps starting with the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and then moving on to something like "Boundaries" By Townsend and Cloud - we might get somewhere. We might better understand the other posters, their backgrounds and the abuse that has gone on in their past, and we might figure out some better boundaries for each other without having to have the moderators and administration step in.
I like G's suggestion of Skype, but the reality is that we live in vastly different time zones and continents, so this will be difficult. I can't imagine a time where I could catch Contra for example, in that he's around 9 hours difference from me. I might catch you or Ani in the wee hours of the morning, because you're in California. I could catch anyone here in Europe rather easily, because our time difference is probably plus or minus 2 hours vs the vast difference of -5 to -9 hours.
We do need fellowship threads, but those are not going to happen with the break down we currently have. It's like trying to thrust two opposing football fan groups together. It's going to end in riot and much damage.
We need clear rules so we can work together. Until those rules and protections are in place, no one will feel completely at ease opening up their hearts again, when they've been stomped all over with spiked shoes.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but haven't you seen the same behavior on several Jewish forums where people suss out what someone else believes and practices and then takes a "hands off" approach when they find out that the other poster's observance level is not the same, nor are their beliefs?
I sure have.
There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.
Shoot, you walk in the door of a Synagogue and once someone knows your name, they want to know who you're related to, where you're from, if you were raised Jewish or not, and how you came to be there, in the first 5 minutes. It's enough to give the uninitiated a panic attack - but it happens!
Yes, some are!!
Exactly, so we have to find out our healthy balance.
And no one has argued against this. But, we have different levels of observance here, and those of us who believe like others here, wish to discuss that level of observance unhindered. This is not something out of the ordinary.
And yes, I have met many Jews who have had absolutely no level of Jewish upbringing come into the movement and not know what to do. They come in to learn how to have a healthy balance in their belief and observance.
"To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish. "
To those not familiar with Messianic Judaism, it may seem as if we're picking at nits, but truth be told, we're working out issues together with individuals in a way that a home group or cell group might not allow.
See, here is some of the problem though. It is not so much the stance of the AMC, which is aligned with many protestant denominations who are against Messianic observance of Torah, but how they react when you ask if they are Messianic. "No, we are not."
I do find their reaction, and the teaching of others such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum as "Anti-Torah" as I am sure several others in this forum do as well. However, that does not have to be a bad thing, IF we have clear lines of the differences of beliefs, how those beliefs are interpreted and how they are carried out, for others to see and understand prior to posting in the forum.
How the AMC/J4J and a Messianic congregation that is aligned with a mainline protestant denomination will see and teach Torah will be entirely different from how someone in the MJAA, UMJC and any other denominational Messianic movement around the world will. In fact, our level of observance here in Germany is vastly different than the majority who are in the Beit Sar Shalom umbrella. We align more with the local Jewish community in our beliefs and practices, because we do not worship on Sun/Wed, do not keep the Christian festivals (there are many more than are observed in the USA), and how we dress. You could pick us out as different in the crowd every time.
It is not a bad thing. It is just "different". We are all at our different levels and walks, hopefully because G-d led us there and we have a job to do where we are. If not, we need to do some serious soul searching and find out what we should be doing.
In the meantime, we are here together, and need to work out how to respond to each other in a constructive way, without making more fur fly, or call on helpers to tar and feather someone.
Qnts2 said:
there is quite a lot here with which believe, perhaps nearly allQnts2 said:
Qnts2 said:
I understand this is your experience, but my experience with Jewish Messianics it much different, with both leadership and congregational members.
The vast majority, say 80-90%, DO believe that Torah (written Law) is eternal and both Torah and all covenants are still in effect. The majority of those believe that the Oral Law is also appropriate to follow when it does not directly conflict with the Torah.
Most Messianics, Jewish and non-Jewish, with whom I've had contact, folks from all over this country and quite a few places around the world, frequently speak of Torah when gathered for worship or study. By Torah is usually meant the written Mosaic Law but can also include the oral Rabbinic Law depending on speaker and context. In some contexts Torah can also mean The 5 Books or even the entire T'NaKh. This is not merely a Messianic standard but has held true with some non-Messianic Jews with whom I've had contact.
there is quite a lot here with which believe, perhaps nearly all
Another thing just in general.
In a large number of "Messianic," and even a few Messianic, communities keeping individually chosen Traditions is quite often about the desire to appear as or identify with the Jewish community at large, for various reasons, while still eschewing the keeping of Torah.
In most cases they are unaware that the Traditions are actually Rabbinic Law. In many cases where they are aware that the Traditions are Rabbinic Law they try to throw out the Rabbinics by finding some marked individualized way to do the Tradition, differently, like putting the tzitzit on the belt loops of their cut-offs or the hem of their dresses.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Yes David, things are going better.
And thank you for all of your help in this. You must feel like a supply clerk assigned to a recon team by now. The light kevlar only offers so much protection.
