Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

Sounds good and that their observance here isnt on trial, only that MJ's hold to some sort of personal and public observance of Torah and Tradition....

that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.

nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.

the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.

what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?

 

[Tishri1]

I will View the video again, I may have missed the end as I had to go pick up my son, I don't remember now, but the slides are from the MJAA conference even though another was presenting it....

Oh Ani,

This is the link (see below). Tell me if you recognize it.

So now I have smeared the video? :o Please forgive me if I gave you that impression. I was trying to offer an objective response.

I know that the presentation you heard at the MJAA was a positive one. I don't question that. I trust you. I wish that you would trust me too, at least a little.

Not being there with you, I did not see the presentation that you did. But I downloaded the video that was posted by THE TEMPLAR on this thread. I went to the websites. I downloaded the Powerpoint presentation, the spreadsheet and all of the related material. The study itself is quite interesting. I do have some issues with it, but it is very informative if a bit skewed to the AMC side of things.

What I saw in the video was perhaps a little different that the conference presentation you attended. Did you actually watch this video all the way through? After all, the MJAA conference you attended probably addresses a pretty wide audience. However, Rabbi Steve Shermett was commenting directly to his congregation, an AMC congregation that subscribes to the core belief that, "the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers".

My point isn't to criticize Steve Shermett, his congregation or their beliefs. My point was that Steve Shermett's summation reflected his doctrinal position that is by nature, anti-Torah observant. He believes that you shouldn't even try to observe Torah. He stated plainly as a summary statement of this study, "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to!"

Is this what you heard at the MJAA conference; don't even bother to try to keep Torah? Because I consider this type of sentiment anti-Torah rhetoric. Am I wrong?

This started out for me, weeks ago, trying to make one simple point. That those that have never considered Torah observance might not be well equipped to recognize anti-Torah rhetoric. If this is the case, then it would cause well-meaning Moderators to come down on the wrong side in this issue, as several other members have already stated. This is the concern that I posted numerous times. It was never even acknowledged, much less addressed. Why? And why am I the bad guy for bringing it up?

Your OP states:

Does this mean that we are not to suggest the topic of perception in regard to this dispute? I thought it was relevant because I thought we were looking for resolution to disputes.

Tish, I have heard this complaint from a number of members. I know that you have read some of them here in this thread. These are from the same members that say they are afraid to report violations for fear of repercussions from Moderators that don't understand the issue. If you will recall, a number of them recounted bad experiences because of this very thing. I think that this is an important issue, don't you?

I am sorry if you think I am trying to start problems. Really I'm not. And I apologize to everyone that I may have offended. My frustration at having this one issue repeatedly ignored has led me to present it in more and more dramatic ways. But if you feel that this issue isn't worth your time - again, then fine. Sorry for being so much trouble.

 

[Tishri1]

I can tell you for a fact that I have experienced that here Sister Tishri.

Since you're looking, start here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7625317/
There's a wealth of example in this thread.

That's a long thread do you have specific links?

 

[Tishri1]

Excuse me, but the flying of a non-Trinitarian icon in and of itself is a statement against the Trinity.

No it's a required icon we provided a few years ago, it lets staff know if these members are posting in the CO areas, MJ isn't in one of these areas

 

[Tishri1]

Dear Tishri,

...could the mods take a specific interest in the harmony of, well, the Advice board? Why does this board get special care over the battlefield that is Advice, just for example.

Love,

zeener

Come to the MSC with your request and we can send a team over there too
http://www.christianforums.com/f883/

 

[mishkan]

Yes, a public confession followed by a first rate stoning!
Just move over a bit Brother, I'm too close to the edge...

Do I understand you to be a moderator? Of this forum? This posting is that of a troll, not a responsible leader.

 

[Tishri1]

The quote below doesn't fit in with an MJ thread because it's basically saying the opposite of what MJs believe, they don't believe the Torah is no longer obligatory, they don't believe they cannot observe , like I said before there are just as many scriptures on Torah obedience as their are on grace, a post like this doesn't belong in a forum like this as it flames the whole group, telling them in a very negative way why what they are doing is wrong to do.....there has to be a change in the style of your replies in here for this to work

Who posted the video to this thread? Just for clarification, it wasn't the guy you said it was. http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944

And for a little more clarification, some Messianic Jews believe that the Law is no longer obligatory for believers. Do you know why Shermett said "You can't keep Torah even if you wanted to."?? Because that is what Scripture states "There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands, no one seeks God, all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one. Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers' venom is under their lips. Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness. Their feet rush to shed blood, in their ways are ruin and misery, and the way of shalom they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes. Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are." Also, the fact is that since the Temple is gone, no one can keep the Torah even if they wanted to. And oh, there's that offensive word right smack dab in the Complete Jewish Bible! Go figure!

I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with that video but I knew it wouldn't be staying due to the haphazard manner in which it was stuck up there. It was tested for whatever reason. Now it's gone bye, bye to video heaven!

I'm starting to feel like a lab rat in a maze and the cheese keeps moving.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Like I already said I go to one of the larges MJ synagogues, and we don't differentiate between mosaic law and Torah. it's all Torah to us and everyone has some sort of relationship to Torah in their lives. It is what makes MJ special. Torah and tradition are intertwined as well, there is not much separating the two ...when we talk Torah we also are involved in tradition

Okay, but you've spent an inordinate amount of time in this thread telling all here to be more tolerant of differing viewpoints and, respectfully, your response to Sister Qnts2 is more like the MJ Forum according to Sister Tishri's experience and not at all accepting of the fact that there are some Messianic Jews who believe as Sister Qnts2. And Sister Tishri......there are some Messianic Jews who believe as Sister Qnts2.

It's my understanding that Deuteronomy is often treated separately from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers by scholars. The word Torah does not mean "law" but rather "to teach" and that is true of all five books but the Law is primarily taught in Devarim. The other four books teach the beginning, the departure, those He called to the priesthood and the laws for that priesthood and the record of the wandering; God's history lesson, so to speak. Bearing this in mind, I can understand what Sister Qnts2 is saying and I've heard it said this way in other Messianic camps. It's not out of line with Messianic Judaism at all.

 

[Jerushabelle]

The quote below doesn't fit in with an MJ thread because it's basically saying the opposite of what MJs believe, they don't believe the Torah is no longer obligatory, they don't believe they cannot observe , like I said before there are just as many scriptures on Torah obedience as their are on grace, a post like this doesn't belong in a forum like this as it flames the whole group, telling them in a very negative way why what they are doing is wrong to do.....there has to be a change in the style of your replies in here for this to work

You're telling people they can't accept Scripture and be Messianic.
How do you account for all the Messianic Jewish camps that believe this including many in the MJAA?

 

[Avodat]

Unsubscribing. If I want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!



Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.

 

[Jerushabelle]

That's a long thread do you have specific links?

Don't worry, you can pretty much jump in anywhere and find what you're looking for. I had the links prepared but I erased them and just referenced the whole thread in defference to some folks. At this point, I'm not sure it matters.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Unsubscribing. If want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!



Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.

At this point, I have to agree Brother. Unsubscribing as well.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Who posted the video to this thread? Just for clarification, it wasn't the guy you said it was. http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944

That was me who posted the video. I said in the post to take the positive from it. This would be like me posting Wesley or the Westminster confession pertaining to the Law of God as an example to help prove a truth. Or a commentary by Matthew Henry or Adam Clarke. Doesn't mean I agree with them that the ceremonial and civil laws are abolished in the same way I said look at the positive from the video.

Was there any positive from the video in relation to the discussion whether or not he is right or wrong about we can't keep the Law of Moses anymore?

It's almost by default to dismiss anything Christian among our some Messianic brothers and sisters and this can apply to the video and especially 'the moral of the story' from the video whether it came from a Christian, a Messianic believer who believes the law of Moses is obsolete etc, etc.

 

[Jerushabelle]

That was me who posted the video. I said in the post to take the positive from it. This would be like me posting Wesley or the Westminster confession pertaining to the Law of God as an example to help prove a truth. Or a commentary by Matthew Henry or Adam Clarke. Doesn't mean I agree with them that the ceremonial and civil laws are abolished in the same way I said look at the positive from the video.

Was there any positive from the video in relation to the discussion whether or not he is right or wrong about we can't keep the Law of Moses anymore?

It's almost by default to dismiss anything Christian among our some Messianic brothers and sisters and this can apply to the video and especially 'the moral of the story' from the video whether it came from a Christian, a Messianic believer who believes the law of Moses is obsolete etc, etc.

I don't agree they're abolished either but I see no need to dismiss all things Christian. The love of the whole Body is essential to me. I know what it's like to have family hate me. I never want anyone to experience that at my hand. People come to Messianism from different directions.
I can accept that. Others can't. Shalom Brother.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?
The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many.
What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith....
Also remember, this is a report free thread.
What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?

This post really bothers me. I find it rather inflammatory, and in the heat of the moment, rather than left for a few minutes and come back to.

IF it is alright, I would like to reword this part.

"Again you are demanding that others within MJ who may have differing views from yours be banned from posting here? What if you were on the other end of your argument?"

"Are you requesting that others in the community who have differing views be banned or relegated to other parts of the forum if they disagree with you? Do you realize this would result in tit-for-tat?"

"The video was not posted to be anti-Torah, it was posted to prove the differing positions held by MJ Congregations. We can not pretend that all are of one mind else we exclude many."

"The video was not intended to be anti-torah, but to prove a point that there are differing positions in relation to Torah observance within the Messianic community. We do not all see eye to eye."

"What you accuse myself and others of is ignorance, I do not believe this to be proper, fair or true. I do not see this behavior fitting of a brother in the faith...."

"I find your tone accusatory. I may be misunderstanding you however, and I have big feelings about how this was worded. Can you clarify your statement?"

"What am I to "MODERATE"? Perhaps you mean "CENSOR"?"

"What is it that you are asking me to moderate exactly? Or do you perhaps mean that I and other moderators are to censor certain posts? I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking here. Please do come back and clarify so we are all on the same page."


That might have been received much better by all of us.

Interesting and noted, except you should have also quoted the loving post this was in response to... to be fair.

It is actually quite difficult for me to post at all with the netbook I was using, so quoting was a bit out of the question, as it has a tendency to randomly erase and insert words where I am trying to type. I was rather surprised the post came out at all in one piece.

My post was not directed at one person, but everyone.

I do find that several of your posts here are reactionary and inflaming. Not intentionally, I'm sure - but they could be a little more aloof.

This for example:

Yes, a public confession followed by a first rate stoning!
Just move over a bit Brother, I'm too close to the edge...

The poster you are referencing was not "stoning" those who supported the post, but was explaining how it is inflammatory to those of us who have been here a while and are Torah observant (in all it's many flavors) and how many in the movement and outside of it tell us that all our doing is "simply in vain" or "silly" (as it was taken by some) or "not really an issue" (which is an issue to some). The person that the video is from, is not even Messianic. They are however on the "fringes" of the movement - as a Hebrew Christian organization. I put fringes in quotation marks, because some do find they are a bit fringe in their beliefs. I personally believe they are outside of the Messianic faith, and more in the Christian grouping, in that generally they line up theologically as Christian, and deny being Messianic.

He posted this with the intent it went with the group of discussions covering this, but got here a bit late in the game. By then, everyone else had moved on. This is not his fault, your fault or anyone else's. It just happened to be an unfortunate happening, and should have been taken as such.

His opinion is just as valid as those who believe the video and opinions contained therein are 100% what they believe and uphold. Neither is more right than the other, it is totally how we present that belief and communicate and fellowship together after knowing where we all stand.

I publicly apologize for any harshness in my response.
Especially in light of the fine and loving posts to which I am responding, how could I hold any degree of harshness...
Can you explain the need for the demands in response to a request for respect of all on this forum?

Don't you just wonder how those who have been falsly accused, attacked and chased away from this forum feel...

This, is really very passive-agressive. I am actually very uncomfortable if this is how our forum is to be moderated. Moderation is supposed to be as impartial as possible, even when people strike a nerve.

I too was one that was driven away from the forum a long time ago. I came back. I can walk a mile, but seriously I don't see where anyone was falsely accused other than those who posted a bit later than they intended.

When there is fur flying, step back a little and watch it settle before trying to separate those who are fighting, or you too will get caught in the fray.

Again I ask you - why have we not seen you post here in the past and yet now you're taking ownership for it?
Are you being honest here or is this another snarky response? I just don't understand your approach to this dialog.

I would also like to ask this question. I'm not attacking you Templar, I just do not understand why your response has been as it has.

I'm "venomous" yet the hostility of others is unseen.

Oh, it's certainly not unseen. Certainly not. We just know others and either have attempted to address it multiple times in various ways, and likely may have already taken a "hands off" approach because nothing else is working.

I find your last couple of posts a little reactionary, about like a parent that hasn't gotten up off their butt, but told a 3 year old several times "stop it" and then just stands up out of nowhere, jerks the child up by their arm and throws them over their lap and begins laying into their hind end. The problem was not the action of the child, but how the parent reacted. Was it a teachable moment? Yep. It taught the child "if i bug mommy/daddy enough, they'll beat the tar out of me, not play with me."

I have a fair level of training, and from many differing schools. I will stand by my statement. If it is not in the SoF it does not exist, if we are honest with our SoF. Now do some teach that which is outside sound doctrine? I'm sure they do, I just don't personally know of it. If it be, why judge all within that group?
Sometimes it better to give grace before we judge what someone else believes.
The main point of this thread is how to accommodate all MJ's in a single forum.

There is a reason it is not in the SoF. It was not agreed upon to be in there, because it was either considered controversial, or it did not line up with the MJAA and UMJC. There are more Messianic groups out there than lined up with those two, including a few that are a little koo-koo-ka-choo. There are others that someone in the MJAA/UMJC that might find a little "fringe", but that does not make those people fringe if their doctrine does agree with the majority of scripture, even if that means they look 100% orthodox and would blend in with the crowd in Mea Sherim in Jerusalem, or if they are J4J.

Problem is, there are Hebrew Christian groups, and they are not represented in the SoF. We have "Nazarene" groups that are not represented in the SoF and we have one poster here that aligns with much of that line of thinking. There are groups between MJ and HC that are not represented in the SoF There are Messianic groups that are all over the board that are not represented in the SoF - yet we have people from all of those groups that are posting here.

Short of posting every SoF and group websites who believe in those SoF's - we will not have everyone here happily and fully represented.

Of course we cannot even begin to try and do that either, because many Messianics do not believe in putting up a SoF, because that is not a Jewish mode of recognition at all. It just serves to engender more questions as to what they believe. It's easier to just call up/email the rabbi or elder board and find out what is going on there.

 

[MessianicMommy]

...my question is what do you want? And what would be fair?

Should folks who do not observe Torah to the degree you do have to leave this place? Even if they attend MJ congregations?

Or allow them to stay but give them funny names that they will have to wear so we know they are the ones not observing Torah to the same level?

Or can we simply ask for respect to those who do observe Torah and not teach, or debate against its observance in this place?


This question is for everyone

1. No one is called to observe exactly the same way all the time as someone else in the rest of the world. There are different flavors of Judaism the world over due to the various places Jews live. Someone in Yemen isn't going to observe Torah or the Talmud in the same way as someone in Scandinavia. Someone in South Australia won't be observing as someone in America.
We need to recognise a healthy difference in observation where this is concerned. No one is to be condemned for difference in observation, as even in America, differences are observed from shuk to shuk. No?

2. There are different interpretations of what "The law"/"the Torah" is. We need to have definable ways of understanding where everyone is posting from, and possibly which organization they align with. This would create less confusion as to where we are posting from. It is not to ghettoize anyone, but to create a level playing field where our scrolls are not giving us this.
We have individuals that say they obey Torah and are observant, and those of us who are are wondering what level of kashrut they hold to, when WHAM a post comes up by that poster that aligns more along the line of a Hebrew Christian organization that teaches against keeping Kosher on any level, and that it's silly to celebrate anything other than major Jewish holidays - we have a problem. This is where MUCH of the arguing is coming from, and no I've not participated because it has been quite difficult to suss out the different flavors of people without it ending in a tar and feathering.

3. We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.

I believe if we did a book series together as a study, perhaps starting with the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, and then moving on to something like "Boundaries" By Townsend and Cloud - we might get somewhere. We might better understand the other posters, their backgrounds and the abuse that has gone on in their past, and we might figure out some better boundaries for each other without having to have the moderators and administration step in.
I like G's suggestion of Skype, but the reality is that we live in vastly different time zones and continents, so this will be difficult. I can't imagine a time where I could catch Contra for example, in that he's around 9 hours difference from me. I might catch you or Ani in the wee hours of the morning, because you're in California. I could catch anyone here in Europe rather easily, because our time difference is probably plus or minus 2 hours vs the vast difference of -5 to -9 hours.

We do need fellowship threads, but those are not going to happen with the break down we currently have. It's like trying to thrust two opposing football fan groups together. It's going to end in riot and much damage.
We need clear rules so we can work together. Until those rules and protections are in place, no one will feel completely at ease opening up their hearts again, when they've been stomped all over with spiked shoes.

Don't you think that telling Messianic Jews, who grew up in a Torah based belief, to not teach Torah, or to not tell about their childhood, or their Jewish upbringing is a form of belittling our Jewish education and upbringing.

Messianic Judaism was and is a Jewish expression of our belief in Yeshua. It was where Jewish people could be Jewish without fear. Somehow, it seems entirely wrong to silence Messianic Jews on a forum titled Messianic Judaism.

Please do not take this the wrong way, but haven't you seen the same behavior on several Jewish forums where people suss out what someone else believes and practices and then takes a "hands off" approach when they find out that the other poster's observance level is not the same, nor are their beliefs?

I sure have.

There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.

Shoot, you walk in the door of a Synagogue and once someone knows your name, they want to know who you're related to, where you're from, if you were raised Jewish or not, and how you came to be there, in the first 5 minutes. It's enough to give the uninitiated a panic attack - but it happens!

I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?

Yes, some are!!

I don't want to sidetrack this into a law vrs no law tangent, but traditions and customs are not law. Everyone no matter who they are understands the 10 commandments (give or take one or two) to be basic social behaviour. That's what most consider law. And yes the Ultra Orthodox and some Orthodox are very serious about Jews keeping Torah and if you don't "shame on you". However, lots of Jews have no problem eating pork and doing commerce on Shabbat.

Exactly, so we have to find out our healthy balance.

Unless a Jewish person is brought up secular, they do have religious training. And living in a Jewish household, they are exposed to Jewish law.

Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law because it is not a focus. I don't know of a Jewish person who has not celebrated Passover. That we already know and experienced Passover, and continue to celebrate Passover, as almost all Jews, does not make Messianic Judaism about the law. It makes Messianic Judaism, Jewish. To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish.

Jewish people live in a different culture. The Jewish culture.

And no one has argued against this. But, we have different levels of observance here, and those of us who believe like others here, wish to discuss that level of observance unhindered. This is not something out of the ordinary.

And yes, I have met many Jews who have had absolutely no level of Jewish upbringing come into the movement and not know what to do. They come in to learn how to have a healthy balance in their belief and observance.

"To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish. "

To those not familiar with Messianic Judaism, it may seem as if we're picking at nits, but truth be told, we're working out issues together with individuals in a way that a home group or cell group might not allow.

that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.

nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.

the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.

what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?

I don't see the AMC as being anti-Torah and when certain individuals here led Brother Sacerdote down the rosy path to that conclusion in another thread, I thought it grossly unfair to the AMC.

See, here is some of the problem though. It is not so much the stance of the AMC, which is aligned with many protestant denominations who are against Messianic observance of Torah, but how they react when you ask if they are Messianic. "No, we are not."

I do find their reaction, and the teaching of others such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum as "Anti-Torah" as I am sure several others in this forum do as well. However, that does not have to be a bad thing, IF we have clear lines of the differences of beliefs, how those beliefs are interpreted and how they are carried out, for others to see and understand prior to posting in the forum.

How the AMC/J4J and a Messianic congregation that is aligned with a mainline protestant denomination will see and teach Torah will be entirely different from how someone in the MJAA, UMJC and any other denominational Messianic movement around the world will. In fact, our level of observance here in Germany is vastly different than the majority who are in the Beit Sar Shalom umbrella. We align more with the local Jewish community in our beliefs and practices, because we do not worship on Sun/Wed, do not keep the Christian festivals (there are many more than are observed in the USA), and how we dress. You could pick us out as different in the crowd every time.

It is not a bad thing. It is just "different". We are all at our different levels and walks, hopefully because G-d led us there and we have a job to do where we are. If not, we need to do some serious soul searching and find out what we should be doing.

In the meantime, we are here together, and need to work out how to respond to each other in a constructive way, without making more fur fly, or call on helpers to tar and feather someone.

 

[Chaplain David]

Unsubscribing. If want this level of hassle I'll call a church meeting!
Will the last person standing remember to switch off the lights and bolt the door when they leave.

At this point, I have to agree Brother. Unsubscribing as well.

Alright Brother Avodat and Sister Jerushabelle, if you don't want to work together with the rest of us then I agree wholeheartedly with your decision to unsubscribe.

But let's make it one or the other please. You have a lot to contribute but if you're fighting the process it doesn't help.

We're trying to do something good here - positive - proactive - helpful. We haven't reached our goals yet but working together we well. And of course that is a better MJ Forum and improved human relations within it. Thank you.

Shalom

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I see that video caused an uproar. I'm not sure if it was a Sticky before I posted it or not. But want to re-iterate my intentions why suggested it. My intentions weren't to show whether or the Law of Moses is defunct. Not to show whether or not there's different 'flavors' of Messianic Judaism. What else? I think that's it. The intention of the person who made the video wasn't that either as he said 'I always thought we were miles apart'. The purpose of the video was just that, not any doctrinal implications.

What's more interesting and correct me if I'm wrong Tishri that notes or the video was shown at Messiah conference?

 

[Chaplain David]

...We need everyone to respect each other and approach arguments POSITIVELY. IF we keep addressing posts in the negative, we're just going to see more and more fur fly.

Amen! There's a lot of meat in this thread but unless we proceed from a solid base of respect and kindness, all the other words have little meaning. ...

We need clear rules so we can work together. Until those rules and protections are in place, no one will feel completely at ease opening up their hearts again, when they've been stomped all over with spiked shoes.

If we don't have them we'll make them. Good point!

There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews.

Of course.

Some of the members have difficulty getting along with people who have doctrine or outlooks that are different. That is a problem and it's also intolerance. God did not call any of us to bludgeon each other with the Torah. We really can do better in the getting along area, not taking offense area, and reading the positive into someone's statements rather than jumping to negative conclusions.

So we have to find out our healthy balance.

Shalom to all.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Alright Brother Avodat and Sister Jerushabelle, if you don't want to work together with the rest of us then I agree wholeheartedly with your decision to unsubscribe.

But let's make it one or the other please. You have a lot to contribute but if you're fighting the process it doesn't help.

We're trying to do something good here - positive - proactive - helpful. We haven't reached our goals yet but working together we well. And of course that is a better MJ Forum and improved human relations within it. Thank you.

Shalom

I appreciate you calling me by my name, Chaplain and acknowledging me as your Sister. Thank you.
I've been "handled" a lot over the last 2 years, 4 months and 19 days. I hope you understand that my inability to take anymore handling has nothing to do with me wanting or not wanting to "work together" with the rest of you.