Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Avodat]

Alright Brother Avodat and Sister Jerushabelle, if you don't want to work together with the rest of us then I agree wholeheartedly with your decision to unsubscribe.

But let's make it one or the other please. You have a lot to contribute but if you're fighting the process it doesn't help.

We're trying to do something good here - positive - proactive - helpful. We haven't reached our goals yet but working together we well. And of course that is a better MJ Forum and improved human relations within it. Thank you.

Shalom

Excuse me? It is not I that doesn't want to work with others and neither have I been fighting the process, as you will know, because I put up the fake MOD HAT ON that you saw and you apologised to Mark about something. Mark then endorsed MOD HAT ON with a plea to get back to the OP. It is others who have turned this thread into a battle ground about who is, or who is not, totally, partially or nominally Torah observant. Your post shows, I think, an inability to grasp what is happening even though a number of posters and Mods have had a shot at pleading that we keep to the OP (though they have succumbed to the arguments). When (if) the Mods gain control again and it gets back to dealing with the OP, I might re-subscribe! I would ask that you ponder carefully before accusing people of not wanting to work with others - it doesn't become a Minister to address a ministry colleague in that manner.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I don't see the AMC as being anti-Torah and when certain individuals here led Brother Sacerdote down the rosy path to that conclusion in another thread, I thought it grossly unfair to the AMC.

I do find their reaction, and the teaching of others such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum as "Anti-Torah" as I am sure several others in this forum do as well. However, that does not have to be a bad thing, IF we have clear lines of the differences of beliefs, how those beliefs are interpreted and how they are carried out, for others to see and understand prior to posting in the forum.

I can't figure it myself because I think in my mind they are contradictory. They say the Law of Moses is rendered obsolete YET they keep traditions. I actually emailed Dr F to get a better understanding on what I perceive a contradiction. I emphasize what I perceive. It could be that I don't understand it. I mean they have a camp that where they keep the Sabbath and such.

I hope and pray that someone from AMC would come and post here. I've looked at AMC congregational sites and there is no indication they don't worship on Shabbat etc, etc.

 

[Chaplain David]

I don't see the AMC as being anti-Torah and when certain individuals here led Brother Sacerdote down the rosy path to that conclusion in another thread, I thought it grossly unfair to the AMC.

Dear Sister Jerushabelle,

Thank you for looking out for me and for bringing this to my attention.

I even had someone (not you of course) come into the ask a chaplain forum and jump into another person's thread about the 10 commandments and start debating with me there. The posts are anonymous except for the chaplains and the OP so I could not see who it is but I have an idea.

I'm a very broad minded, Christian, Pentecostal, Southern Baptist. I'm also retired military whose service includes two dessert conflicts and the Vietnam war. So I am not totally without resources or experience LOL.

However, I do need people looking out for me to a certain extent (we all do sometimes) but I have a good relationship with God and He, through the Holy Spirit always guides me in the right directs. The only problems I have is when I do not listen.

So I have on my light kevlar and am proceeding. But I am confident that we are going to do good things here. We just need to keep our emotions tuned down and our objectivity, reasoning, and love for another turned up IMO.

Shalom.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

OK this is in regards to my post #583. I actually saved quote, This Jewish believer is affiliated with an AMC congregation. When I post it, it's going to shock believers here because "it's blasphemy!!" HOWEVER and I repeat HOWEVER this brother in Yeshua and the congregation he's affiliated with meet on Shabbat, observe the holidays/feast days etc.

Here goes nothing(sarcastic)...

"Jewish believers like myself are new creatures.[1] We are dead to the Law.[2] We are no longer under it; it can no longer judge us, penalize us, or condemn us for non-observance of its commandments. Don't you know that "the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives"[3]?

In fact, the commandments of the Torah of Moshe speak to the old man, not the new man.[4] In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, but a new creature.[5] Therefore, to say that we as Jewish believers must keep the Law "throughout our generations" is simply incorrect.[bless and do not curse]

We're in Christ now, and we're dead to the Law. Our old man was crucified and buried with Christ.[6] That command simply does not apply to us. The Law no longer speaks to us. We're under the Law of Christ,[7] affected by grace, "for the law was given by Moshe; grace and truth came by Messiah Yeshua."[8]"

Again and I emphasize this, the Jewish believer who said this observes Shabbat, keeps Lev 11 etc and so do a lot in his congregation, of course they meet and worship on Shabbat.

 

[Chaplain David]

I have a question for you Templar - are you here as a moderator or a forum poster?

Brother Templar is a Moderator in good standing but not here as part of the MJ Forum Upgrade Team. He is participating as a member here in our attempts to improve things and better get along. The members of our team which could change depending on certain variables include:

The Boss Lady: Tishri1
Team Supervisor: Mark
Supervisor Trainee: Pam
Moderator: Tanya
David: Chaplain, cook, and eater of fine baked goods

If you don't know these folks screen names I can translate them for you. We all have experience both on the board and in forum upgrades. And we care about you, each other and the board (CF). You may pm any of us at any time. Some of us have messenger and skype at our disposal. Shalom.

 

[Chaplain David]

Excuse me? It is not I that doesn't want to work with others and neither have I been fighting the process, as you will know, because I put up the fake MOD HAT ON that you saw and you apologised to Mark about something. Mark then endorsed MOD HAT ON with a plea to get back to the OP. It is others who have turned this thread into a battle ground about who is, or who is not, totally, partially or nominally Torah observant. Your post shows, I think, an inability to grasp what is happening even though a number of posters and Mods have had a shot at pleading that we keep to the OP (though they have succumbed to the arguments). When (if) the Mods gain control again and it gets back to dealing with the OP, I might re-subscribe! I would ask that you ponder carefully before accusing people of not wanting to work with others - it doesn't become a Minister to address a ministry colleague in that manner.

Glad you might resubscribe. We all need to be working on this together.

 

[Qnts2]

I can't figure it myself because I think in my mind they are contradictory. They say the Law of Moses is rendered obsolete YET they keep traditions. I actually emailed Dr F to get a better understanding on what I perceive a contradiction. I emphasize what I perceive. It could be that I don't understand it. I mean they have a camp that where they keep the Sabbath and such.

I hope and pray that someone from AMC would come and post here. I've looked at AMC congregational sites and there is no indication they don't worship on Shabbat etc, etc.

Most AMC do have services on Shabbat. I know a few of the people who are a part of the AMC but have not really discussed their outlook. I know they hold Shabbat services I know they are a break off, objecting to the more 'Charismatic' expression of the MJAA and the UMJC. They also objected to some of the decisions or what they viewed as increased emphasis of the law. And that emphasis which they objected to, is minor compared to the One law theology. So, the AMC is likely on one end of the range of Messianic Judaism.


Consider this. In the law, there was not such thing as having services on Shabbat. The synagogue system did not start until the Babylonian diaspora. Before that there was only the Temple, and most people could not travel to the Temple for Shabbat. Shabbat was simply about staying home, not working. It had nothing to do with worship services.

 

[Qnts2]

Glad you might resubscribe. We all need to be working on this together.

I know this is off topic, but have been curious about your nick.

When I read sacerdote, I think sacerdotal. Could you please, if you don't mind, give a hint about the meaning of your nick? If you want to answer this in PM's feel free to delete this post as it is off topic.

 

[Chaplain David]

I know this is off topic, but have been curious about your nick.

When I read sacerdote, I think sacerdotal. Could you please, if you don't mind, give a hint about the meaning of your nick? If you want to answer this in PM's feel free to delete this post as it is off topic.

I lived a good long time in Italy and was in fact ordained while residing there. Sacerdote is everyday Italian language meaning pastor or priest. Generally, he's the one who does the hands on work (whatever needs doing from sweeping up to confession) while the Monsignore is relegated to higher duties, being in charge of stuff, and representing the church at functions, etc. Plus he get's the fancy clothes LOL. The Sacerdote usually wears a simple white (or other colored) robe if he's in an order, or a plain black suit with the high clerical collar.

 

[Qnts2]

Like I already said I go to one of the larges MJ synagogues, and we don't differentiate between mosaic law and Torah. it's all Torah to us and everyone has some sort of relationship to Torah in their lives. It is what makes MJ special. Torah and tradition are intertwined as well, there is not much separating the two ...when we talk Torah we also are involved in tradition

Actually, most Messianic Jews do not use the term Torah and actually mean the Mosaic law. That is just plain confusing. And more uniquely a term used in One Law but not generalized in Messianic Judaism.

From the MJAA site:

The MJAA Believes: That the BIBLE, consisting of the Tenach (Old Covenant/Testament) and the later writings commonly known as the B'rit Hadasha (New Testament/Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God. We recognize its divine inspiration, and accept its teachings as our final authority in all matters of faith and practice (Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Proverbs 3:1-6; Psalm 119:89, 105; Isaiah 48:12-16; Romans 8:14-17; II Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).






Messianic Jewish people hold the Torah in high respect, but that does not mean Messianic Jewish people believe the Mosaic law carried forward as a unit into the New Covenant.

MJ does practice Jewish tradition, but that is one of the differences in Messianic Judaism. It is based on Jewish culture, and worship is more Jewish. It is a comfortable place for Jewish believers. Torah and tradition are intertwined but Torah does not mean Mosaic law/covenant. It means Torah, the five books of Moses.

When you have a people who were raised in the Torah as the definition of their religious beliefs, the Torah will be held in high regard. The Torah is the words of God. The Nach is the revelation of God and the NT is the words and revelation of God.

Unlike people who come to know Yeshua from other religions, such a Buddhism, the basis of their belief is unbiblical. Jewish people whose basis of belief is biblical, the only real turning a Jewish person does in their belief is turn from unbelief in Jesus as the Messiah to belief in Jesus the Messiah. Even the Messiah is a Jewish belief but Judaism rejected and did not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, which was wrong. So, Jewish believers are never anti-Torah. Jewish believers see changes in the Mosaic law and the New Covenant, but that never makes a Jewish believer anti-Torah.

From the MJAA:

Messianic Judaism is a Biblically based movement of people who, as committed Jews, believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the Jewish Messiah of Israel of whom the Jewish Law and Prophets spoke.

To many this seems a glaring contradiction. Christians are Christians, Jews are decidedly not Christian. So goes the understanding that has prevailed through nearly two thousand years of history.
Messianic Jews call this a mistaken - and even anti-Scriptural - understanding. Historical and Biblical evidence demonstrates that following Yeshua was initially an entirely Jewish concept. Decades upon decades of persecution, division, and confused theology all contributed to the dichotomy between Jews and believers in Yeshua that many take for granted today.



I know you attend a large Messianic synagogue but being one of the largest does not mean it is representative of the beliefs of Messianic Judaism as a whole, or defines Messianic Judaism as a whole. It means that your Messianic synagogue, if it is affiliated with the MJAA or the UMJC, and the AMC, probably falls somewhere within the spectrum of Messianic Judaism.

Actually, there are larger groups and synagogues which call themselves Messianic. These which are larger are almost all Gentile, and are a part of other groups like Two House or originated as Two House.

Tim Hegg is not considered to be a Messianic Judaism teacher as the largest Messianic Judaism organizations have written against his theology.
Tim Hegg left FFOZ because FFOZ moved from outside of Messianic Judaism to working with Messianic Judaism.

 

[Chaplain David]

Let's go back to our OP for a moment to refresh everyone's memory.

Hi,

This is a report free thread.

We need to discuss some resent issues with some debating going on between members that is directly against the establish MJ SOP, regarding Torah, and also the name calling going on towards those who have been debating Torah.

This is a reminder to those who are less Torah observant to not disrupt threads of folks who are more Torah observant than you.

And this is a reminder to those folks who are more Torah observant not to call those members who are less Torah observant grace only Christians if they self identify as Messianic Jews or Gentiles.

Thoughts?

So how are we doing with this? Are we making progress? What can we do to make more progress, both with the OP and in treating each other better and discussing the OP and suggestions with less emotion and more kindness and proactivity?

I have to go to an appointment. One or more of the other team members or I will be on a little later. God bless you and Shalom.

 

[Qnts2]

This is true again it's a negative post about someone's Torah observance

One Law is the name of the theology. Just as those who believe in the 5 points of TULIP are usually called Calvinist. A person who believes in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as comprising the One God, but the three are co-equal, separate and distinct, are called Trinitarian. Those who believe God is one, who is seen in three different modes at different time are called Modalists, or Monarchial Modalists. I have said I am a modified Dispensationalist, and many people enjoy slamming my Dispensational beliefs.

All of these terms are abbreviations to describe a set of beliefs without having to write a paragraph to identify which set of beliefs we are referring to.

From wiki...

One Law theology acknowledges the distinction between Ekklesia and Israel in principle, but gentile believers are considered to come under the Mosaic covenant, making observance obligatory. This theology actually has a long line of various sects that have popped in and out of history. One Law groups have many things in common with Messianic Judaism because of their belief in the ongoing validity of the Mosaic Covenant. Leaders of the Messianic community such as Dan Juster of Tikkun Network and Rus Resnick of UMJC have joined together to argue against One Law theology's insistence on gentile observance. Tim Hegg responded to their article defending what he believes to be the biblical teaching on the subject.

 

[etZion]

OK this is in regards to my post #583. I actually saved quote, This Jewish believer is affiliated with an AMC congregation. When I post it, it's going to shock believers here because "it's blasphemy!!" HOWEVER and I repeat HOWEVER this brother in Yeshua and the congregation he's affiliated with meet on Shabbat, observe the holidays/feast days etc.

Here goes nothing(sarcastic)...

"Jewish believers like myself are new creatures.[1] We are dead to the Law.[2] We are no longer under it; it can no longer judge us, penalize us, or condemn us for non-observance of its commandments. Don't you know that "the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives"[3]?

In fact, the commandments of the Torah of Moshe speak to the old man, not the new man.[4] In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, but a new creature.[5] Therefore, to say that we as Jewish believers must keep the Law "throughout our generations" is simply incorrect.[bless and do not curse]

We're in Christ now, and we're dead to the Law. Our old man was crucified and buried with Christ.[6] That command simply does not apply to us. The Law no longer speaks to us. We're under the Law of Christ,[7] affected by grace, "for the law was given by Moshe; grace and truth came by Messiah Yeshua."[8]"

Again and I emphasize this, the Jewish believer who said this observes Shabbat, keeps Lev 11 etc and so do a lot in his congregation, of course they meet and worship on Shabbat.

Lol, thanks for sharing.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Lol, thanks for sharing.

The point is it's contradictory pertaining to what the person does. So what is to be said of a believer who says what I posted but worships with other believers on Shabbat, celebrates the feasts, Brit milah etc just like a Messianic that says 'we must keep the law'.

 

[etZion]

The point is it's contradictory pertaining to what the person does. So what is to be said of a believer who says what I posted but worships with other believers on Shabbat, celebrates the feasts, Brit milah etc just like a Messianic that says 'we must keep the law'.

Well, it is contradictory, the person is doing it for show, and not because of obedience, the person could care less... Obedience to God's Law starts in the heart, and I would imagine, when the person is not around his/her brethren, the person probably does whatever they want...

The reality is, this type of thinking makes a mockery of those who believe in obeying God. I would consider this person a fake and a deceiver.

 

[Qnts2]

[There is a real Torah presence and relationship in evey MJ group across this nation, the one component to MJ is its relationship to Torah and Jewish Tradition, that is why it's in our SOP, maybe your congregation doesn't speak of Torah at all but that is not the norm, and in here that is not the norm

My point in the post you are responding to, is the Messianic Jews grew up with the Torah defining our religion and beliefs. To restrict Messianic Jews from talking about Torah because we do not believe in 'Torah observance' would be offensive and overly restrictive.

Of course we talk about the Torah (remember Torah is not equivalent to Mosaic law). And not just in our congregations. Having grown up Jewish, my discussion with other people include things I did when I was a child. My former synagogues. My family practices. And my understanding of verse in Torah in relationship with Yeshua.

It is the norm for Messianic Jews to talk about Torah, not necessarily the Mosaic law.

 

[Qnts2]

pdudgeon[/b] ]

that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.

nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.

the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.


what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?
​

Sounds good and that their observance here isnt on trial, only that MJ's hold to some sort of personal and public observance of Torah and Tradition....

As far as the Talmud, I would find it difficult to argue that it is a requirement to hold the Talmud in a place of honor. While the Talmud is mostly Jewish style debates of varying opinions, there are some opinions which are not highly regarded. So that would depend on what 'honor' means.

This is from a statement of faith:

We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.

And for MJ's, maybe MJ's hold to some sort of personal or public observance of Torah or Jewish tradition.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Well, it is contradictory, the person is doing it for show, and not because of obedience, the person could care less... Obedience to God's Law starts in the heart, and I would imagine, when the person is not around his/her brethren, the person probably does whatever they want...

The reality is, this type of thinking makes a mockery of those who believe in obeying God. I would consider this person a fake and a deceiver.

Wait a minute! You're already judging this person. The fact is we don't know. The believer keeps Lev 11, how is that keeping around his/ her brethren? What about Brit Milah?

The fact is it is contradictory but we can't assume this believer does it for show. Is that the only possible explanation?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

And for MJ's, maybe MJ's hold to some sort of personal or public observance of Torah or Jewish tradition.

Public meaning like on paper?

Shabbat is obvious and so are the Feast celebrations , Purim and Channukah etc which are made more public. Brit Milah and bar/ bat Mitvah , shiva are less public but are public to the congregation. This is an example. If you were going to classify I would say in between reform/conservative Judaism. Reminds me how I was raised.

Interesting my brother is raising their kids in conservative Judaism and not much difference to fight over except Yeshua of course.

Might have missed some.

 

[Qnts2]

Well, it is contradictory, the person is doing it for show, and not because of obedience, the person could care less... Obedience to God's Law starts in the heart, and I would imagine, when the person is not around his/her brethren, the person probably does whatever they want...

The reality is, this type of thinking makes a mockery of those who believe in obeying God. I would consider this person a fake and a deceiver.

And I would be highly offended for a Messianic Jew to be called a fake and deceiver, because they see the relationship of the Mosaic law and the New Covenant differently. There is nothing wrong with a Messianic Jew to say it is not necessary to worship on the Sabbath while worshipping on the Sabbath. That something is not necessary does not mean it can not be done.

In reality, Rabbinic Judaism synagogues are open 7 days a week for worship, including Saturday, Sunday and even Wednesday. Worship can and should occur every day of the week. So, to call a Messianic Jew who worships on Saturday or Sunday or Wednesday a fake and a deceiver is uncalled for.