Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

delete

 

[Tishri1]

Like I said before and you keep ignoring, Ani and I took the class at the MJAA conference and you are doing an injustice to the hearer as it was ment to unite folks to the Torah observant believers, not make light of Torah observance

And now that video has it's own thread and own Sticky too

19th March 2012, 12:48 PM

Torah observance MJ style
http://www.christianforums.com/t7641369-4/#post60047944
Must see video on Torah Observance

http://v10.lscache1.googlevideo.com/...70D2C5&key=ck1

​

I guess this is what we have to agree to, like it or not?

I'm done here.

 

[anisavta]

I think you're on to something. Most Jews aren't raised in orthodox Judaism, so you have a point. I posted something today that would relate to your comment. Most Jews are raised in something though. All the Jews I know in my congregation weren't raised 'at a level' as orthodox let's say. But what's common for the most part is we were raised in common traditions. As I said before being raised Jewish is ethnic, religious and cultural all wrapped up and doesn't depend on your level of Torah of observance. Even the orthodox aren't 'you got to keep the Law like us and if you don't shame on you'.

I don't want to sidetrack this into a law vrs no law tangent, but traditions and customs are not law. Everyone no matter who they are understands the 10 commandments (give or take one or two) to be basic social behaviour. That's what most consider law. And yes the Ultra Orthodox and some Orthodox are very serious about Jews keeping Torah and if you don't "shame on you". However, lots of Jews have no problem eating pork and doing commerce on Shabbat.

 

[anisavta]

I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?

Yes some are.

 

[Qnts2]

No Qnts not all Jews were brought up with formal Judaism training in Torah. And even if they were bar and bat mitzvah, how many kids even cared about learning the law. They just wanted to get through their portions and speeches so they could get to the party.
And I fail to see how Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law based on your previous paragraph. It no make sense. :o

Unless a Jewish person is brought up secular, they do have religious training. And living in a Jewish household, they are exposed to Jewish law.

Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law because it is not a focus. I don't know of a Jewish person who has not celebrated Passover. That we already know and experienced Passover, and continue to celebrate Passover, as almost all Jews, does not make Messianic Judaism about the law. It makes Messianic Judaism, Jewish. To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish.

Jewish people live in a different culture. The Jewish culture.

 

[anisavta]

I have participated on enough forums, where the Messianic Jews get into debates (we are having fun), and the Gentile participants get upset at what they think of as harsh, or argumentative. I usually have to tone down what I would do in a Jewish only board. So, when I say Gentiles are not comfortable with the Jewish style of debate for learning, I am still confident that is a generally true statement. If you are the exception, that might not be true for you.
I'm Jewish.
As far as One Law, do you believe that the Mosaic law applies to Gentiles, one law for Jews and Gentiles? -
I will not derail this thread. This question has been discussed ad-nauseum on another thread.

The following is from Wiki with a couple of modifications:

One Law theology acknowledges the distinction between Ekklesia and Israel in principle, but in practicality believes gentile believers are considered to come under the Mosaic covenant, making observance obligatory. This theology actually has a long line of various sects that have popped in and out of history.

You're trying to teach again.

 

[Tishri1]

Let's get back to the OP ladies, this just going in circles now, and talking past each other......the point being some are more Torah observant than others and we need to harvest some respect in here

I've got to agree with Tal and Lulav on this.

There is a huge difference between:
Keeping some of the Law because it is cool and makes one feel good to be able to identify with the Jews and stand out from the Christians - "they are great traditions and I do them when ever I can"
AND
Keeping as much of the Law as one possibly can keep (outside of Israel, in the absence of a Temple or a Jewish theocracy) because G-d said they are to be kept forever.

Messianic Torah Positive folk see that G-d does not change, there was nothing wrong about the Law, and He said the Law was "for all generations." No where does His Word say "until I find a better way." In fact, since He said Both that Yeshua was sacrificed from the foundation of the earth AND long after the foundation of the earth He gave the Law and said the Law was to be kept for all generations, then the coming of Yeshua AND His sacrifice must have no bearing on the viability or status of the Law. The sacrificial system was built to foreshadow Yeshua's sacrifice and looked forward to His sacrifice in faith and anticipation. Just as the sacrifices that were done by the "Jews that believe" for about a century after Yeshua's sacrifice, such as Sha'ul and Messiah's brother among many others who were "all zealous for the Law," and those G-d has said must be started again when the Temple is rebuilt ALL look backward in memorial of His sacrifice.

Be it clearly known that the sacrifice of No animal ever saved anyone! It was the faith that motivated the obedience and faith in G-d's Instructions and promises - i.e. the Sacrifice those sacrifices prefigured, that saved. Just as faith in that Sacrifice and Promise saves today.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

From the same chapter of 1 John which is "Dear friends, if our hearts know nothing against us, we have confidence in approaching God; then, whatever we ask for, we receive from him; because we are obeying his commands and doing the things that please him. This is his command: that we are to trust in the person and power of his Son Yeshua the Messiah and to keep loving one another, just as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands remain united with him and he with them. Here is how we know that he remains united with us: by the Spirit whom he gave us"

And as evidence of this, Yeshua said to the rich man when he asked:
"'Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life? He said to him, 'Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot.' The man asked him, 'Which ones?' and Yeshua said, 'Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't give false testimony, honor father and mother and love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to him, 'I have kept all these; where do I still fall short?' Yeshua said to him, 'If you are serious about reaching the goal, go and sell your possessions, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!'"

I want you to notice something Sister, the rich man clearly knew Torah or about Torah but he still asked "Which ones?" Scripture doesn't indicate if the rich man was Jew or Gentile but the man had the presence of mind to ask "Which ones?". And Yeshua listed out the ones he wanted the man to keep. I myself was shocked to see that the Sabbath was not mentioned in that list which is another reason why I don't jump on anybody for the Sabbath day they choose to rest. Additionally, the festivals aren't listed. So those are the only laws we need to follow? Well, that's what Yeshua said. And then I thought, well He followed up with "Then come, follow me!" so He must have meant to follow Him in obedience of all of Torah, but then why did Yeshua only mention so precisely the mitzvot He mentioned? This is not something He would have done so offhandedly when the man's eternal life weighed in the balance. So I could only conclude that these are the mitzvot we are commanded to follow. Do I obey more? Yes, I do, but I don't feel that I have to for eternal life. For rewards?....maybe.

Now I know you didn't ask me about this this go round but it has been asked of me here before so I figured I'd take the opportunity to answer. This is what many Christians call the Law of Christ. Somebody else asked about the Law of Christ earlier.

 

[Tishri1]

[I'm going to ask Ani to look at it as both of us took the class at MJAA and it was truly a class in support of Torah observance when we took it....Ani what do you think?

It has taken hours but I have "caught up" on this entire thread. Have only been participating a few months so I didn't want to butt in where I don't fully understand the history.

But when I saw this, I felt I must at least comment.

Yeshua help us all!

I agree with the most recent post that there are several conversations going on simultaneously, not always productively.

I see much evidence of care and concern on the part of those who have been called in to "help," yet little evidence of understanding the issues.


I must also say that to my "ear" anyway, some of it sounds rather condescending and patronizing. I haven’t found it to be much of an encouragement to continue participating, but then I have still been evaluating how much value there is to forums anyway.


Trying to find a word picture, and NOT intending to be offensive: maybe like a Little League coach trying to mentor the coach of say, the Brewers or the Red Sox? No, better example: that Little League coach trying to mentor a professional golfer. Some common ground as far as personal preparations and working in front of a crowd, but beyond that "a whole nother story." Again, I'm not intending to be offensive. Sacerdote did note a lack of familiarity with the OT, which is quite common for most Christians,even those with seminary training, so lacking that foundation, it is difficult to communicate clearly. It really isn't so foreign when understood more fully!

Truthfully, I think perhaps it is easily forgotten that this is a forum, and not actually officially representative of the various groups.

While “going along to get along” is sometimes helpful, it is not the be all and end all.
If the Maccabee’s had this attitude, where would Israel be?
Maybe Foxe would have had less to write about, too.

I would rather be divided in Truth than united in error.

As has been said many times, there is a wide range of understanding here.
And lack of understanding. This seems to be true among both regular posters as well as the helpers, and the occasional visitor.

Unless I have misunderstood, this reply is quite a sad example, I'm afraid.

The concern is that the video now being labeled as instructive for this thread is one that evidently speaks against Torah observance but does it in language that is subtly misleading and not supportive of a healthy awe for the Word. It is apparently not evident to all.

This observation, twice noted, brought no reply indicating a desire to verify whether or not it is appropriate.

Subtly misleading teaching is often more dangerous than blatant untruth.
Concern expressed about the failure to recognize inconsistent teachings has nothing to do with ruffled feelings or process.

It has everything to do with integrity.

 

[pdudgeon]

I must agree with Bro. Mark, I also am not aware of a "Mainstream Denomination" holding to this teaching. Can you provide SoF's to support this?

that's because they are not necessarily mainstream denominations, but there are parts of Christianity who do hold those opinions mentioned, and who do take the idea of grace too far in the opposite direction from the Talmud.

nontheless, in this forum the Talmud is and should rightly be held in a place of honor. that is not the question.

the question (from what i can tell) is the degree of the practice of their beliefs that MJ's engage in, or the degree to which the Torah is important in their lives. And that again is an individual choice for everyone, and not something that can be mandated as part of being an MJ.

what could be stated in the SOF though is the belief that MJ's here should actively desire to follow Torah in their lives. That would put the emphasis on the importance of Torah, and yet still leave the following as a personal responsibility done within the limits of the member's understanding and ability, G_d helping them.

what do you think? would that encompass the beliefs and practices of both sides?

 

[Yahudim]

Delete

 

[anisavta]

Unless a Jewish person is brought up secular, they do have religious training. And living in a Jewish household, they are exposed to Jewish law.
They are exposed to Jewish custom and tradition.

Messianic Judaism is not about keeping the law because it is not a focus.
Yes it is a focus. That's what sets us apart from basic Christianity. And this has been stated ad-nauseum.
I don't know of a Jewish person who has not celebrated Passover. That we already know and experienced Passover, and continue to celebrate Passover, as almost all Jews, does not make Messianic Judaism about the law. It makes Messianic Judaism, Jewish.
It's tradition and custom. You are not making sense.
To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish.
What??
Jewish people live in a different culture. The Jewish culture.

 

[anisavta]

[I'm going to ask Ani to look at it as both of us took the class at MJAA and it was truly a class in support of Torah observance when we took it....Ani what do you think?

Sorry hon - give me the link again and I'll give it a go.

 

[Tishri1]

If you make a thread on the issue, I'd love to join it with ya/others and discuss more in-depth..and of course, if you'd like me to make one first, that's cool too. Of course, if Tishri and others want to keep the discussion here, that's another thing. Either way, I appreciate the insights/thoughtfulness you share

No please take it to a new thread. I actually regret having that video take us off topic too...we really need to focus on the two points in the op

 

[Tishri1]

I removed the video as its already been smeared to the point that no one now can enjoy it for what the author intended it for

That is a wonderful sentiment brother. However, I was not talking about ignoring others that have a different opinion than mine. In fact, I welcome it. You however, are talking about ignoring a serious breach in the forum rules for the sake of... what? You are a Moderator! Moderate!

What I was addressing was the inability of the staff to recognize anti-Torah propaganda. The example I used THIS TIME was the video you endorsed as 'fact'. From your comments, I take it that your too do not believe that Torah can be observed, much less that it is alright for Torah observant Messianics to even try. That is what 'Rabbi' Steve said in his summation of the study presented in the video. That actual quote, "You can't keep the Law even if you wanted to." was in my post HERE.

My point was and is, that the video itself is anti-Torah and posted on a site that does not even allow that Torah is observable. They said, "While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life..." What is disconcerting is the fact that NO STAFF MEMBER (including you) recognized that this is ANTI-TORAH! Again I don't think it is anything sinister on your part or for that matter, on the part of any of the staff. However, because you failed to see it, I have to ask myself how fair can you be to the Torah observant in this forum if you don't recognize violations of the SoP that are clearly slanted against the Torah observant?

Understand that I don't expect you to be Torah observant. That is your choice. I do however expect for you to be equipped to do your job as a Moderator and recognize violations against the Torah observant. That should be a given, but it's not. Why?

You are correct that we should be tolerant and seek the peace of the forum. I could not agree more. And I pledge to do my part to make that happen. But if you think that you are innocent in this and that you have no room for improvement, then you are not a part of the solution. You are the problem.

I will make you a pact, brother. If you can acknowledge this is a very serious breach of the rules by removing this anti-Torah video, I will do everything in my power to help you in all of your endeavors as a Moderator here. Is that fair enough for you?

Blessings,

 

[Tishri1]

For the record, I have NEVER said that "Messianics are not Christians". What I do believe is that there is a distinct difference between mainstream Christian theology and that of Messianic Judaism. I don't think any Christian or Messianic would disagree with that statement. The repeated accusation that I have said otherwise is both false and extremely derogatory. I dare anyone to quote me as saying otherwise. This needs to stop now.

If she quoted you I wasn't agreeing with a quote, but with her statement, don't worry I haven't heard you say that we are not Christians

 

[Chaplain David]

Someone may have addressed this already and if so, thank you. I haven't had the time this evening to read or respond to the last half dozen pages of posts or so. I want to ask everyone to please make a special effort to be kind to each other. We are going to work some good things out and solve some problems. Let us do our best to love each other the same way that God loves us. I'll close my participation in this thread and say goodnight to you, my brother and sister's in Christ with Jesus' words paraphrased from Luke 10:27 - ''Love the Lord our God with all our heart and with all our soul and with all our strength and with all our mind'; and, 'Love our neighbor as yourself.'

Looking foward to talking with you tomorrow.

Shalom

 

[Tishri1]

[Posts like that one are disruptive and offensive in their subtle attack on folks in the forums in which they are read. they are not seen as fellowship or sharing when they closely goad or attack the group reading it..sure you can say you dont mean THIS group, but to many times it is trying to get the groups attention in a negative way as surely some will feel the the post meant to accuse them too....many many members on CF spend all day writing posts like these to try and skim by the flaming rules, its nothing new we havent seen before

I got a ton of good feedback from it!



I really don't know why- the post really has nothing to do with you or anyone in particular on this forum. If my personal experience is offensive to you...I can't do much about that. I think my experience is true for me, and I don't think you should take it on board personally. Someone asked me a question- I answered honestly. I have to stand by my experience, Tish. I'm sorry you feel it reflects badly on you or the others here, but I don't see how it does.

 

[anisavta]

I'm wondering how Contra gets so much leeway to post here. Mind you there are times he comes up with some good things, but we've made it clear if you don't carry the MJ icon, it must be just fellowship or questions. Especially in this hotbed thread. Emotions are running high enough among those who carry the MJ icons.

 

[Henaynei]

I mean are people wanting to be orthodox Messianic Judaism?

There are fair numbers who do, and even some whole congregations who are

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Tishri1]

I love this solution!

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am trying desperately to "hear" this post in a positive light. One can be "fair and impartial" without ignoring differences.

I am a member of a wonderfully positive forum, that even in the intense fellowship areas, there is no finger pointing, rude dissention and such that we often find here on CF. It is a Christian forum, and the thrust is that we work positively together to try and understand where each poster is coming from.

Example:

Poster A says something that could come off as inflamatory, and the poster after says "OK, I'm trying to understand your post but am coming up empty. What do you mean by _____? Could you please go into depth a bit so I better understand your position?"

Or even IRL, an example would be someone cutting in line in front of you, or cutting you off in traffic. You choose how you react. Are you assuming the negative by how they acted (flipping them off, berating them from behind your wheel), or could there be something else going on, and you choose to respond positively? ("ah, there is someone behind this person bullying them in the left lane and they came in front of me to avoid an accident" or "ah, that exit ramp WAS awfully short..."

However, it is us who have to choose to be reactionary ("no! I do not like this!!") or working through it positively ("I enjoy reading your posts though we disagree.")


I LOVE this forum. I would love to see it transform in a more positive, workable way where we too have a safe haven where we don't feel accused and persecuted all the time and can go here to lick our wounds a bit and still hash things out.


With the various ages, personalities and cultural demographic we have - and how fast threads like these move, it is easy for there to be misunderstandings.

I have seen a couple in just the day I wasn't posting, and was getting caught up. sometimes it takes hours to get a thoughtful post on some content shared 6 pages back to get written and posted. In so doing, the poster who took a while is attacked for reacting negatively to something we agreed 2 pages ago not to discuss and move on with. Well, they were writing their post, how could they know we already agreed to not talk about it any more?

Maybe it ocurrs to me a little more at the moment because i am constantly mediating arguments between two children who are 18 months apart- Often times it is simply one's perceived idea of how the other is interacting with you, vs what has actually happened.

Assign Positive Intent: More On How To Handle Sibling Rivalry


I really love how Pastor Lutton puts it here:

Feeling Good, Acting Good — AOLFF


Yes, this is about parenting- however, it is just as much about how we should relate to others on forums. It is a whole other environment where people treat each other positively rather than negatively and punitively all the time.

I see this as a wholly workable solution, though it would certainly have kinks to iron out, and every poster would need a little help to see it happen. But, it could be done. It's not a pie in the sky solution, nor a "let's make another pidgeon hole" solution either.