Different state past

[Tiberius]

Ice cores laid down? Well, if the flood waters were fast frozen in areas, would that not make a lot of ice fast? That is not being laid down as they now are exactly!

And you do realise that when water freezes quickly, it looks quite different to when it freezes slowly? For a start, the number of gas bubbles in the ice is different.

 

[dad]

So you're starting off with the old, "You can't prove I'm wrong, therefore I am right!" argument. Best friend of kindergarteners everywhere.

Before starting off with old age claims then, know what you are talking about. I do not need further proof of the countless ways that God's word has been shown right. I do need proof of claims that present nature was in place and rendering impossible the history we read though.

Okay, even if the Bible is 100% literal for these events, why not just say that God caused a miracle? Why the need to explain it by altering the fundamental laws of the universe?

Too many miracles are needed. A different nature would be the Occam way to go. Do you think pixies were needed for every day in the long lives of people to make em live 1000 years? What, millions of pixies per tree in each leaf and branch to make it grow as fast as it did?

Do you even know what a nuclear reaction is? You can't have one without the other, because they are the same thing! It's like saying that someone is moving, but they aren't changing their location.

Man doesn't know what a nuclear reaction is! Only a present state nuclear reaction. You see cold fusion may indeed be more of the type of reactions that occur in the different state for all we know.

First of all, we have seen Lava. Molten rock. It requires heat if it is to stay in a molten state. So when we see hot rocks coming out of the ground, we know there's heat down there.

Irrelevant!!! You are asking the wrong question, and getting your tenses mixed up. The question is not how does molten rock work now?! The question is how did it work when the molten rock was laid down?

Also, we have been able to measure the way seismic shock waves travel through the Earth's interior by measuring how long they take to get to the other side, and the way their direction is changed. The only model that explains what we see involves a very hot core surrounded by liquid rocks.

False!! The only present state law based models you mean! What if different state stuff of the one kind did not allow our waves to pass through? We could not know that, but would assume it was liquid, because that is all we know that the wave would not pass through up here! You really do not know.

Despite the fact that the aforementioned "locking" of the magnetic field into rocks indicates that this never took place?

Magnetic flux did take place, so? How does that help you?

The magnetic locking I've mentioned indicates that there was no sudden change at any point.

Well since you keep referring to this locking thing, explain it!? Show us some rocks from some real place where you claim something is locked...

Would you care to propose an alternative?

Not at this time.

Fail! In many cases the daughter materials also decay! If you are correct, then there would be no daughter material left!

False! It doesn't matter at all what they do now! Anything that we see any pattern like decay, that happens at a rate cannot be traced back into where we do not know the rate or even decay existed! All you can do is see how stuff now works.

Then how is it that we have millions of years worth of decay if it's only been going on for a few thousand years?

Easy. You imagine the times. The actual state of atoms and forces and laws doing what they now do is only projected mentally into the past. Nothing more. You are not dealing in real time. Sorry to have to break it to ya.

 

[dad]

And you do realise that when water freezes quickly, it looks quite different to when it freezes slowly? For a start, the number of gas bubbles in the ice is different.

Who cares how many tiny bubbles form when frozen fast in this state?? Focus. The issue is how many formed in the state when the ice formed!?

Now, can you show us a sample of ice at the very very bottom of any formation, with said bubbles? You wanna get down and dirty? Bring it.

 

[rambot]

I don't know if this is the appropriate fora for this topic (so move as needed mods).


Dad still seems unwilling to let go of his tight grip even though there is NO physical evidence for a different past state (at least none that he can himself provide).

It's all about Biblical evidence for a different state. So, I'm curious, what is the Biblical evidence for this theory? By that I mean, what is the Biblical evidence that calls into question every single known theory of the scientific machine?

I am a Christian and, while not a Biblical scholar, I can't begin to fathom why God would change every single law in the universe, but make no mention of it in His book meant to be a SPIRITUAL guide to leading the life he wants me to.


ps....in rereading the flood story to make sure there was no "bombshell" I hadn't seen before, I find it interesting that before the flood "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God"....and then after the flood, the first thing he does is plant a vineyard and get completely wasted.

 

[CabVet]

I don't know if this is the appropriate fora for this topic (so move as needed mods).


Dad still seems unwilling to let go of his tight grip even though there is NO physical evidence for a different past state (at least none that he can himself provide).

It's all about Biblical evidence for a different state. So, I'm curious, what is the Biblical evidence for this theory? By that I mean, what is the Biblical evidence that calls into question every single known theory of the scientific machine?

I am a Christian and, while not a Biblical scholar, I can't begin to fathom why God would change every single law in the universe, but make no mention of it in His book meant to be a SPIRITUAL guide to leading the life he wants me to.


ps....in rereading the flood story to make sure there was no "bombshell" I hadn't seen before, I find it interesting that before the flood "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God"....and then after the flood, the first thing he does is plant a vineyard and get completely wasted.

There is neither scientific nor Biblical support for this "theory".

 

[Tiberius]

Before starting off with old age claims then, know what you are talking about. I do not need further proof of the countless ways that God's word has been shown right. I do need proof of claims that present nature was in place and rendering impossible the history we read though.

Reality itself is proof.

Too many miracles are needed. A different nature would be the Occam way to go. Do you think pixies were needed for every day in the long lives of people to make em live 1000 years? What, millions of pixies per tree in each leaf and branch to make it grow as fast as it did?

Too many miracles? Ah, but rewriting the entire set of the fundamental laws of the universe in such a way that it left absolutely no evidence and looks just like we'd expect if the current laws had been operating for billions of years, now that's totally plausible!

Man doesn't know what a nuclear reaction is! Only a present state nuclear reaction. You see cold fusion may indeed be more of the type of reactions that occur in the different state for all we know.

I know a lot of physicists who would disagree with you. And you're just guessing, aren't you?

Irrelevant!!! You are asking the wrong question, and getting your tenses mixed up. The question is not how does molten rock work now?! The question is how did it work when the molten rock was laid down?

Okay, let's see if you can use your "different past state" idea to answer this question!

False!! The only present state law based models you mean! What if different state stuff of the one kind did not allow our waves to pass through? We could not know that, but would assume it was liquid, because that is all we know that the wave would not pass through up here! You really do not know.

Because it doesn't matter what it was like in the past. I'm telling you that in the HERE AND NOW, we know very well what the interior of the earth is like, despite your claims to the contrary.

Magnetic flux did take place, so? How does that help you?

because the Earth's magnetic field requires a molten core. Which you say is not possible.

Well since you keep referring to this locking thing, explain it!? Show us some rocks from some real place where you claim something is locked...

Mid-ocean ridge for a start. THIS school site also explains how it works. A SCHOOL, dad, this stuff is basic knowledge. You can read some more about it HERE, in an article written by a woman with a PhD in geology. This article also states that the earth's magnetic field requires a liquid outer core.

Not at this time.

You don't have one, do you? You have an idea which tells you absolutely nothing, gives you no way to test it and requires the complete dismissal of a great deal of verified scientific knowledge, and yet, YOU know better than the thousands of scientists who have studied this sort of thing all their professional lives.

I'm sorry, but you aren't convincing anyone.

False! It doesn't matter at all what they do now! Anything that we see any pattern like decay, that happens at a rate cannot be traced back into where we do not know the rate or even decay existed! All you can do is see how stuff now works.

So if the daughter materials didn't get here from the decay of the parent material, how did they get here?

Easy. You imagine the times. The actual state of atoms and forces and laws doing what they now do is only projected mentally into the past. Nothing more. You are not dealing in real time. Sorry to have to break it to ya.

What are you talking about?

When we look at the ratios of different materials in rocks, as we do when we use radio dating, we see that the only way to get those particular ratios is if they have been decaying for millions of years. This is not possible if radioactive decay has only been going on for a few thousand years.

It's like if you have a bucket filling up, drop by drop, one drop a second. It can have 50,000 drops in it, but if you say that this one drop a second has been going on for an hour, and before that, there were no drops, then something is wrong. This is the situation you are in now, and you can't explain it.

At the end of all of this, all you are doing, dad, is assuming that your interpretation of the Bible is true, then deciding that because you can't possibly be wrong, then everyone else who disagrees with you IS wrong. Then you make up a whole heap of speculation that allows you to be the hero, and then declare yourself to be correct.

I'll tell you what, dad.

I'll give this up and completely agree with you if you can give me one piece of testable evidence from reality that supports your claims. So no getting out your Bible and saying, "The Bible is true, therefore you are wrong," because that's not a piece of testable evidence." And don't tell me that I can't prove that you're wrong, because I have, and I'm asking you to show me something from reality that supports you, and your claims don't count as that.

Got it?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'll tell you what, dad.

I'll give this up and completely agree with you if you can give me one piece of testable evidence from reality that supports your claims. So no getting out your Bible and saying, "The Bible is true, therefore you are wrong," because that's not a piece of testable evidence." And don't tell me that I can't prove that you're wrong, because I have, and I'm asking you to show me something from reality that supports you, and your claims don't count as that.

Got it?

In other words, you want him to lay his offensive Weapon down (q.v. the armor of God a la Ephesians 6) and come at you basically unarmed?

 

[CabVet]

In other words, you want him to lay his offensive Weapon down (q.v. the armor of God a la Ephesians 6) and come at you basically unarmed?

He is not using the Bible as a weapon, there is no indication of a "different state past" (or embedded age) in the Bible. If he wanted to use the Bible he would say "God did it", and end there.

 

[AV1611VET]

He is not using the Bible as a weapon, there is no indication of a "different state past" (or embedded age) in the Bible. If he wanted to use the Bible he would say "God did it", and end there.

QV please:

So no getting out your Bible...

 

[Tiberius]

Who cares how many tiny bubbles form when frozen fast in this state?? Focus. The issue is how many formed in the state when the ice formed!?

Now, can you show us a sample of ice at the very very bottom of any formation, with said bubbles? You wanna get down and dirty? Bring it.

Do you even think about what I say?

If water freezes quickly, then there is not much time for any gas bubbles to dissipate, and the gas bubbles will be frozen into the ice.

If water freezes slowly, then the gas bubbles will have more time to dissipate, and there will be less gas frozen into the ice.

 

[Tiberius]

In other words, you want him to lay his offensive Weapon down (q.v. the armor of God a la Ephesians 6) and come at you basically unarmed?

The Bible is the best evidence he's got? I suppose you think reality can take a hike then?

All he's done is say, "My interpretation of the Bible says this, and reality disagrees with it. Therefore there was a different past state!"

All I'm asking him to do is give him something I can check for myself.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible is the best evidence he's got?

Evidently -- It's the one Thing you asked him not to bring.

But you'll certainly bring yours, won't you?

 

[rambot]

There is neither scientific nor Biblical support for this "theory".

No scientific support is a given.

I want to see how he pervert's God's word for his purposes.

 

[rambot]

Evidently -- It's the one Thing you asked him not to bring.

But you'll certainly bring yours, won't you?

For me personally, I'd welcome it if he wants to be made to look like a heretic.

 

[dad]

I don't know if this is the appropriate fora for this topic (so move as needed mods).


Dad still seems unwilling to let go of his tight grip even though there is NO physical evidence for a different past state (at least none that he can himself provide).

No evidence for heaven or the tribulation that is physical either. No evidence for your same state past either...so? The kind of evidence we do have you wave off.

It's all about Biblical evidence for a different state. So, I'm curious, what is the Biblical evidence for this theory? By that I mean, what is the Biblical evidence that calls into question every single known theory of the scientific machine?

Here is some idea...

http://splitmerge.webs.com/split.pdf

I am a Christian and, while not a Biblical scholar, I can't begin to fathom why God would change every single law in the universe, but make no mention of it in His book meant to be a SPIRITUAL guide to leading the life he wants me to.

There is mention of many things that happened that could not happen under our present nature...long lives for example.

ps....in rereading the flood story to make sure there was no "bombshell" I hadn't seen before, I find it interesting that before the flood "Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God"....and then after the flood, the first thing he does is plant a vineyard and get completely wasted.

Cheers. Guess that is not what makes a man righteous.

 

[dad]

There is neither scientific nor Biblical support for this "theory".

False. Your claim is also easy to refute. Try to either make a science case for a present nature in the past, or a bible case against one, and we all can see why real fast!!

 

[dad]

Before starting off with old age claims then, know what you are talking about. I do not need further proof of the countless ways that God's word has been shown right. I do need proof of claims that present nature was in place and rendering impossible the history we read though.

Reality itself is proof.

Our reality is here and now. Overruled.

Too many miracles? Ah, but rewriting the entire set of the fundamental laws of the universe in such a way that it left absolutely no evidence and looks just like we'd expect if the current laws had been operating for billions of years, now that's totally plausible!

Separating the spiritual would leave only the physical laws. The physical only laws are not fundamental to creation, heaven, the future, or the past! They are fundamental here. The fact that the tribulation and milenium will be different is obvious. Just as the new heavens will be. This same reasoning applies to the far past.

I know a lot of physicists who would disagree with you. And you're just guessing, aren't you?

Not guessing that the only reactions nuclear or otherwise that a physicist knows are present state!

Okay, let's see if you can use your "different past state" idea to answer this question!

Yes. I can. The temperature was lower for molten rock! Otherwise we would all be dead long ago.

Because it doesn't matter what it was like in the past. I'm telling you that in the HERE AND NOW, we know very well what the interior of the earth is like, despite your claims to the contrary.

That is laughably totally wrong. Not even close. Try to post silliness elsewhere.

because the Earth's magnetic field requires a molten core. Which you say is not possible.

False! I merely say that the field is not due to one...and never was!

Mid-ocean ridge for a start. THIS school site also explains how it works. A SCHOOL, dad, this stuff is basic knowledge.

The pattern of magnetic reversals is better explained by a state change and rapid separation. I thought you had some secret point and evidence that might be worthy of thought! You toss out the old ridge reversal stuff? Come on now.

You don't have one, do you? You have an idea which tells you absolutely nothing, gives you no way to test it and requires the complete dismissal of a great deal of verified scientific knowledge, and yet, YOU know better than the thousands of scientists who have studied this sort of thing all their professional lives.

I don't need a model of how the different state interior and it's forces and laws work to affect the earth and the magnetic field. We just need to know what is KNOWN. Your hot core nonsense is not known.

So if the daughter materials didn't get here from the decay of the parent material, how did they get here?

They were here already at the start of this state. What was created and what was involved in the former atomic processes need not be known. That is above your pay grade.

What are you talking about?

When we look at the ratios of different materials in rocks, as we do when we use radio dating, we see that the only way to get those particular ratios is if they have been decaying for millions of years. This is not possible if radioactive decay has only been going on for a few thousand years.

No. You see amounts of materials, and what they are now doing. Then you imagine that they always were and that all we see got here in this state.

It's like if you have a bucket filling up, drop by drop, one drop a second. It can have 50,000 drops in it, but if you say that this one drop a second has been going on for an hour, and before that, there were no drops, then something is wrong. This is the situation you are in now, and you can't explain it.

No. The bucket was created. It also had most of the water in it. All you have done is to look at a few drops falling, and assume it all got there that way!

At the end of all of this, all you are doing, dad, is assuming that your interpretation of the Bible is true, then deciding that because you can't possibly be wrong, then everyone else who disagrees with you IS wrong. Then you make up a whole heap of speculation that allows you to be the hero, and then declare yourself to be correct.

Using the clues God gave is better than blindly following the blind leaders of the blind!

I 'll tell you what, dad.

I'll give this up and completely agree with you if you can give me one piece of testable evidence from reality that supports your claims. So no getting out your Bible and saying, "The Bible is true, therefore you are wrong," because that's not a piece of testable evidence." And don't tell me that I can't prove that you're wrong, because I have, and I'm asking you to show me something from reality that supports you, and your claims don't count as that.

Got it?

You don't make the rules! God does. He gave enough evidence of His words to man. I say only a fool or a truly uniformed person could disagree.

 

[dad]

Do you even think about what I say?

If water freezes quickly, then there is not much time for any gas bubbles to dissipate, and the gas bubbles will be frozen into the ice.

In this state, yes. Now, look at the earliest layer of ice...oh wait you claim it is gone! So how can we check your bubble claim?

If water freezes slowly, then the gas bubbles will have more time to dissipate, and there will be less gas frozen into the ice.

Does that apply to water that came from space or the center of earth? How many bubbles of gas are in there? Come on now.

 

[Tiberius]

Evidently -- It's the one Thing you asked him not to bring.

But you'll certainly bring yours, won't you?

We both bring reality, because it can be checked.

I don't expect you to understand the benefit of being able to actually VERIFY something, not when you go to such lengths to explain why it can't be verified.

 

[Tiberius]

Our reality is here and now. Overruled.

And you have failed totally to provide anything in the here and now that supports your position.

Separating the spiritual would leave only the physical laws. The physical only laws are not fundamental to creation, heaven, the future, or the past! They are fundamental here. The fact that the tribulation and milenium will be different is obvious. Just as the new heavens will be. This same reasoning applies to the far past.

Assumptions.

Not guessing that the only reactions nuclear or otherwise that a physicist knows are present state!

No, you're guessing that there are others for which there are no evidence.

Your entire idea seems to be nothing but guesses.

Yes. I can. The temperature was lower for molten rock! Otherwise we would all be dead long ago.

We'd all be dead if the temperature of molten rock was as high as it is today, we'd all be dead? Wow, it's a good thing that the temperature of molten rock isn't as high as it is today, or... Wait, it IS as high as it is today! And there are no people dying from it either!

That is laughably totally wrong. Not even close. Try to post silliness elsewhere.

You claim that the idea that we can measure seismic waves traveling through the Earth to learn what the interior of the Earth is like... is silly?

False! I merely say that the field is not due to one...and never was!

Then what causes it?

The pattern of magnetic reversals is better explained by a state change and rapid separation. I thought you had some secret point and evidence that might be worthy of thought! You toss out the old ridge reversal stuff? Come on now.

I'm sorry, I thought you said that the state has changed only once. How many times has the state changed, dad?

I don't need a model of how the different state interior and it's forces and laws work to affect the earth and the magnetic field. We just need to know what is KNOWN. Your hot core nonsense is not known.

Yes it is.

They were here already at the start of this state. What was created and what was involved in the former atomic processes need not be known. That is above your pay grade.

Then they'd only show a few thousand years of decay, wouldn't they? They'd only show the decay that occurred since the beginning of the present state.

No. You see amounts of materials, and what they are now doing. Then you imagine that they always were and that all we see got here in this state.

And you imagine that they were different. Do you have any evidence that what you propose is possible?

No. The bucket was created. It also had most of the water in it. All you have done is to look at a few drops falling, and assume it all got there that way!

Then if the rate of the drips has always been one drip per second, and the dripping has only been going on for an hour, how exactly would the bucket be full?

Using the clues God gave is better than blindly following the blind leaders of the blind!

God gave us this wonderful thing called reality. Why do you not look at that?

You don't make the rules! God does. He gave enough evidence of His words to man. I say only a fool or a truly uniformed person could disagree.

In other words, you can't. You can't provide a single shred of even the flimsiest evidence for your position.

Also, you are at risk of hellfire for calling me a fool, as per Matthew 5:22.

In this state, yes. Now, look at the earliest layer of ice...oh wait you claim it is gone! So how can we check your bubble claim?

Excuse me? You've really gotta stop reading what you want to read and instead read what is actually there. Where did I ever say that the earliest ice layers are gone? We have ice layers that go back to about 800,000 years.

Does that apply to water that came from space or the center of earth? How many bubbles of gas are in there? Come on now.

It applies to any water that was in a liquid state and then froze while on the surface of the Earth.