I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[GuardianShua]

Orthodox Jews have strict Sabbath rulings dictated by their Rabbi's.

 

[Chaplain David]

Orthodox Jews have strict Sabbath rulings dictated by their Rabbi's.

This is probably perfectly clear to everyone except me. But would an Orthodox Jew be or could he/she be also MJ?

 

[ChavaK]

But would an Orthodox Jew be or could he/she be also MJ?

Depends on who you ask, I guess.
From an Orthodox POV, no, it's not possible.
From a Messianic one, probably yes.

 

[Henaynei]

Thank you Lulav. I've been largely away with the migraine thing but we're working on it and I'm trusting God and I have hope that all will turn out well.

Hello brothers and sisters, I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture? I had a couple of other questions but thought I'd stick to one at a time.

yes, G-d gave the Shabbat as a covenant sign to Israel and a remembrance of His personally delivering them from Egypt, not with Gentiles, Messianic or not. There is quite a lot that goes into properly keeping Shabbat. Most Messianic Gentiles are rather phlegmatic about Shabbat, picking and choosing that which they "feel led" to keep and covering that which they'd rather not keep with various "freedom" scriptures.

Orthodox Jews have strict Sabbath rulings dictated by their Rabbi's.

This is probably perfectly clear to everyone except me. But would an Orthodox Jew be or could he/she be also MJ?

the non-Messianic Jews on this board and Jewish leadership and anti-missionaries will unequivocally tell you "No, Messianic Jews can't be Orthodox Jews since through following Yeshua as Messiah they are now not Jews because they have chosen to follow another religion."
Messianic Judaism declares that Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah have Not converted to another religion. Jews that have accepted Yeshua have merely accept the Messiah promised to Israel since Avraham.

Truth is that most Jews who do accept Yeshua as Jewish Messiah usually become More observant of Torah, not less.

Among Messianic Jews there are those who could be classified as Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. The same divisions you will find in the Jewish community - and in most Christian denominations, for that matter.

As for

Orthodox Jews have strict Sabbath rulings dictated by their Rabbi's.

The rabbis make a geder, aka fence, around the various laws. The purpose of the geder is to be a hedge against the human propensity to wander "too close to the edge" when it comes to rules and regulations. It is like an alarm on your hen house fence. It sounds an alert Before the fox can get close enough to take a hen (violate a commandment).

Pastors, preachers, chaplains, yes, even Yeshua do/did this... "You have heard it said 'Do not murder.' But I say if you have anger in your heart toward another you have committed murder." See the rest of His drash/sermon.


b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

Depends on who you ask, I guess.
From an Orthodox POV, no, it's not possible.
From a Messianic one, probably yes.

Hello Brother ChavaK,

If I have read your icons correctly your are an Orthodox Jew, yes? If so, are you also an MJ?

In your second sentence bolded above, do you say that because for all intents and purposes, MJ's with all of the various stances adopt a variety of practices/observances/celebrations?

 

[Chaplain David]

yes, G-d gave the Shabbat as a covenant sign to Israel and a remembrance of His personally delivering them from Egypt, not with Gentiles, Messianic or not. There is quite a lot that goes into properly keeping Shabbat. Most Messianic Gentiles are rather phlegmatic about Shabbat, picking and choosing that which they "feel led" to keep and covering that which they'd rather not keep with various "freedom" scriptures.

the Jews on this board and Jewish leadership and anti-missionaries will unequivocally tell you "No, Messianic Jews can't be Orthodox Jews since through following Yeshua as Messiah they are now not Jews because they have chosen to follow another religion."
Messianic Judaism declares that Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah have Not converted to another religion. Jews that have accepted Yeshua have merely accept the Messiah promised to Israel since Avraham.

Truth is that most Jews who do accept Yeshua as Jewish Messiah usually become More observant of Torah, not less.

Among Messianic Jews there are those who could be classified as Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. The same divisions you will find in the Jewish community - and in most Christian denominations, for that matter.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Brother this is very helpful. You must be young with numble fingers to write all this from an ipod lol.

I asked some similar questions to Brother ChavaK. The perspective is good to know.

So MJ's tend to become more Torah Observant. Good. But they cannot technically be Orthodox Jews. So does that mean what is kept on Shabbat is largely an individual compilation that varies from outlook to outlook?

 

[Henaynei]

BTW
both Chavak and I are females LOL

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

So MJ's tend to become more Torah Observant. Good.

Yes, more Torah Observant than they were before accepting Yeshua.

But they cannot technically be Orthodox Jews.

True, according to non-Messianic Jewish leadership.
And true that many don't try to as observant as are the Orthodox Jews. However, that trend is slowly changing, that is, more and more Jewish Messianics are becoming more Orthodox in their observance as they become more comfortable with the wisdom from the millennia of honored rabbinical study and teaching.

So does that mean what is kept on Shabbat is largely an individual compilation that varies from outlook to outlook?

yes, this is largely true. Influenced by non-denominational and charismatic "free thinking" in regard to the scriptures, since it is largely from those houses that the roots of contemporary Messianic Judaism sprang, and since in a very real sense MJism is still formative, you find a lot of excuse making for each man doing what seems right in his own eyes, using the "freedom scriptures" to validate same.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

BTW
both Chavak and I are females LOL

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

My humble apologies ladies. But I know I have not been the first to switch genders on you. That's why we have gender icons but a lot of us look at the avatars and go from there. I think I will stick to the gender icons in the future so as not to embarrass myself or offend. Thanks for pointing this out so gently. I wish we just used real names lol.

I didn't tell you this story about a Jewish Businessman and myself. He was looking for a restaurant manager, salt of the earth he was and sharp as a tack. We were at the introduction stage and he asked me what my name was I said David ...... and he said ahhhh, good Jewish name. I said yes it is. He said, are you Jewish. I said, "no sir." He then said with a twinkle in his eye and smile on his face, "Why not?"

I did get the job too so I must have done something right. It was a long time ago.

 

[Henaynei]

My humble apologies ladies. But I know I have not been the first to switch genders on you. That's why we have gender icons but a lot of us look at the avatars and go from there. I think I will stick to the gender icons in the future so as not to embarrass myself or offend. Thanks for pointing this out so gently. I wish we just used real names lol.

. No offense taken here just figured it would be easier to hear from one or the other of us! :laughter:

I didn't tell you this story about a Jewish Businessman and myself. He was looking for a restaurant manager, salt of the earth he was and sharp as a tack. We were at the introduction stage and he asked me what my name was I said David ...... and he said ahhhh, good Jewish name. I said yes it is. He said, are you Jewish. I said, "no sir." He then said with a twinkle in his eye and smile on his face, "Why not?"

I did get the job too so I must have done something right. It was a long time ago.

sounds like a good fellow under which to be employed

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

goof

 

[ChavaK]

Hello Brother ChavaK

Hello back! I am a "she"

If I have read your icons correctly your are an Orthodox Jew, yes?

Yes.

If so, are you also an MJ?

No.

In your second sentence bolded above, do you say that because for all intents and purposes, MJ's with all of the various stances adopt a variety of practices/observances/celebrations?

I'm not Messisanic, and no one can speak for all people, but I would say that would be a fair assessment. Most Messianics I have spoken online with say that they do not follow rabbinic law. That would remove them from the realm of Orthodoxy. I have heard of a few (very few) Messianics that claim to be Orthodox and to follow rabbinic law.

 

[GuardianShua]

Hello back! I am a "she"

Are you sure?

 

[GuardianShua]

goof

Stop goofing around Hen.

 

[ChavaK]

Are you sure?

I've been called a "lady" before, which is debatable, but
I'm definitely a "she".

 

[Chaplain David]

Thanks everyone both ma'ams and sirs.

 

[Yahudim]

*snip*​

Hello brothers and sisters, I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture? I had a couple of other questions but thought I'd stick to one at a time.

Hi Sacerdote,

Blessing in Him. I hope that we are not a cause for your headaches and pray they soon subside completely.

Concerning Shabbat observance or any other observance for that matter, I don't believe it's a sacrilegious thing or because of any particular doctrine. I think it is more about non-Jews encroaching on or co-opting the Jewish cultural identity. I think it's about a three-millennia-long struggle against total assimilation.

There is the separate issues about how we observe Shabbat. On one hand, there is a certain amount of variation in Sabbath observance among the various sects of Judaism. On the other, no matter how well a non-Jew observes Sabbath, it still isn't Jewish, as there is the matter of subjecting oneself to Rabbinic authority. Most Messianics do not accept or are not accepted by the Rabbinic authority of the Jews. There is also the perception that Gentiles 'pick and choose' what they observe as opposed to doing what they know and learning as the go.

One of the main issues a play here is the hope of the Jewish people. It is the re-establishment of the Temple, a priesthood and a theocratic form of government that recognizes Torah as it's constitution. It is the establishment of Israel along the national boundaries set out in scripture. It is the fulfillment of the Messianic promise of a Davidic King that will rule all mankind from Jerusalem. It is the final and complete protection from an entire world full of people that have sought to rape and kill them, force them into slavery, force them to give up their faith, their culture, their identity and their hope in the promises of YHVH.

Because of this, there is the anti-gentile prejudice that is prevalent in most Jewish people, whether Messianic or not. This prejudice predates the advent of Messiah and is still prevalent today. Most of the Jews that have accepted Y'shua as Messiah only pay lip service to the concept 'one man' in Messiah. The rest of the Jewish people have a long history of abuse by gentiles to overcome and generally speaking, try to keep their distance both socially and religiously in varying degrees.

The end result is this: In Messianic circles, Hebrew Christians still view Gentiles as second class citizens, not worthy of following Torah or being acceptable to be grafted into the tree of of Israel, no matter the teaching of the Apostles or Torah. We are allowed a relation ship with Messiah, but not with Israel. Even the largest Messianic organizations have structured their membership to reflect this prejudice (for obvious reasons. They are evangelizing Jews after all). That is why many Messianics of Jewish birth insist on labels like 'Messianic Gentile', making a clear distinction between Jew and Gentile in contrast to the scriptural teaching concerning there being 'no longer a Jew of Gentile, but one man in Messiah' or that there is one law for Jew and Gentile.

I personally do not believe that this is the will of YHVH or Messiah, but it is what it is. We deal with it as best we can. If nothing else, it teaches me a little empathy (even if I do get a little frustrated from time to time).

Be Well,

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I know I have not been the first to switch genders on you. That's why we have gender icons but a lot of us look at the avatars and go from there.

Happens all the time, Bruh....though there's grace for it since many things can be misunderstood rather easily. Had it at one point where someone assumed I was a girl due to the way my name came off--and on some writing styles, I thought it may've sounded male when it was indeed female. Sometimes, names can seem to be of a certain gender, like Bobby or Jayme ...or even nicknames like "Truth Lover" and "Beautiful."

If a guy had a code name like "Bubbles" or "Precious", I can understand why the icons would be of a greater concern to notice..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

MJ's tend to become more Torah Observant. Good. But they cannot technically be Orthodox Jews. So does that mean what is kept on Shabbat is largely an individual compilation that varies from outlook to outlook?

There was actually a good discussion on the matter here in Guidance on Sabbath arguments.

For most Groups, Sabbath is not an issue. What is an issue is the extent of activities one can do, as many are of the mindset that NO activity can occur on the day---including fellowshipping with other Messianics or neighbors or having services (As they feel that the OT forbide others from even going outside to do activities)....while others are of the mindset that fellowship can occur as well as worship like what occurs in services on Satuday (i.e. liturgy, songs, torah reading, blessing, food/gathering, etc). Others are of the mindset that fellowship can also occur on other days BESIDES Saturday, as they do not feel that Saturday is the only day believers were to meet anyhow.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Sacerdote,

Just a quick clarification. In my post above I said:

The end result is this: In Messianic circles, Hebrew Christians still view Gentiles as second class citizens, not worthy of following Torah or being acceptable to be grafted into the tree of of Israel, no matter the teaching of the Apostles or Torah. We are allowed a relation ship with Messiah, but not with Israel. Even the largest Messianic organizations have structured their membership to reflect this prejudice (for obvious reasons. They are evangelizing Jews after all). That is why many Messianics of Jewish birth insist on labels like 'Messianic Gentile', making a clear distinction between Jew and Gentile in contrast to the scriptural teaching concerning there being 'no longer a Jew of Gentile, but one man in Messiah' or that there is one law for Jew and Gentile.

I took some time last night and visited some of these organization. The second-rate memberships for Gentiles were no longer apparent. Those I visited included MJAA and the UMJC. The UMJC page for individual membership had been taken down and has not been replaced yet. So perhaps the discussions that we have been having here at CF/Messianic Judaism are making a difference in the Messianic community as a whole. But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made. So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.