I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[Chaplain David]

Praying for those migraines David

Thank you for the prayers Debi as well as those from other members here. Yesterday was a fair day and I'm hoping today will be as well. I would like to read all of the posts in this thread. I am praying the best for everyone here and your families.

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom sacerdote,

If you have read some of the threads that have focused on this question, you will quickly see that we are divided and mainly into two camps. Both of us see the origins Christianity as a part of Judaism. But over time, there has developed a pronounced division between these two belief systems.

The majority of Messianics believe that the first century congregations were Jewish in doctrine and theology, save for the obvious changes that the advent of Messiah and the destruction of the Temple brought. We see Messianic Judaism as a subset and sect of Judaism as defined by Messiah. We are Torah observant, believing that we are grafted into the covenant of Israel - the covenant itself being defined by Torah. It is the opinion of this group that you cannot be adopted under the covenant of Israel without being responsible to the terms of the covenant with Israel as it applies to the individual in the place and circumstance that they live. These too are addressed in Torah and by Messiah Y'shua.

The second camp, whether Jew of Gentile, is mainly populated with believers that think that Torah has been done away with and that they are not responsible to the statutes, commandments and precepts of the covenant of Israel. Most of this group follows the leading of the 'grace only' Christian organizations formed to evangelize the Jewish people.

In my personal perspective, this is the main difference between these two groups, though there are many more minor difference in doctrine and observance, much like modern Christianity. In closing, the Rabbinic Jews do not believe that Gentiles should follow Torah at all. They do not recognize the 'adoption', despite the teaching of Torah and Tanakh (Old Testament). They also strongly discourage Gentiles from converting.

Not at all comprehensive, but I hope that this helps.

Shalom Talmidim,

I thought I would be able to get through a few more posts before questions started coming but here I am at the 3rd and my hand is going up the way it did in school when I was a boy.

Please forgive me in advance everyone, if I say something incorrect. I am not here to offend. If you point it out to me I will say thank you and apologize.

OK, based on the thread above I am seeing some divisions in Messianic Judaism: two basic and probably a lot more branches. The more traditional for lack of a better word is the Torah following MJ's. The other is the non Torah following. The non Torah following appear to lean heavily toward the teaching in the new testament which we will summarize by (grace) and leave behind at least some if not all of what we call Mosaic Law.

Do the Torah believing MJ's discount or not believe those things written in the new testament stating that those who follow Christ are under grace, not the law; Christ's new commandments that some say top off and other's say supercede the 10 commandments; and anything else in the new testament that would enlighten me? I've heard something for example of some MJ's who do not believe the writings of the Apostle Paul.

I'd better stop with this. I know there are more branches of MJ that have sprung forth in modern times but these two appear to be the basic with Torah being the first.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Shalom Talmidim,

I thought I would be able to get through a few more posts before questions started coming but here I am at the 3rd and my hand is going up the way it did in school when I was a boy.

Please forgive me in advance everyone, if I say something incorrect. I am not here to offend. If you point it out to me I will say thank you and apologize.

OK, based on the thread above I am seeing some divisions in Messianic Judaism: two basic and probably a lot more branches. The more traditional for lack of a better word is the Torah following MJ's. The other is the non Torah following. The non Torah following appear to lean heavily toward the teaching in the new testament which we will summarize by (grace) and leave behind at least some if not all of what we call Mosaic Law.

Do the Torah believing MJ's discount or not believe those things written in the new testament stating that those who follow Christ are under grace, not the law; Christ's new commandments that some say top off and other's say supercede the 10 commandments; and anything else in the new testament that would enlighten me? I've heard something for example of some MJ's who do not believe the writings of the Apostle Paul.

I'd better stop with this. I know there are more branches of MJ that have sprung forth in modern times but these two appear to be the basic with Torah being the first.

I posted something in What's it take to be a Messianic, it's my last post it might answer your question. I'll post it again:

I think the question should be is there a differentiation between a Messianic Jewish congregation and a reform/conservative synagogue. It's no accident that the likes of the MJAA and UMJC have affiliated synagogue's located in Jewish communities that also have reform/ conservative/ orthodox synagogue's. Mostly located in the big metros where there is more population of Jews.[bless and do not curse]

Why? Because WE the Messianic synagogue are part of the same community as YOU the reform/conservative synagogue.[bless and do not curse]

What's it take to involved in a Messianic Jewish community? The better question is 'what's it take not to be involved/ associated with a Messianic Jewish synagogue?' I see it all the time online. When you disassociate with the Jewish community you disassociate with both [bless and do not curse]Messianic Judaism and Judaism, in other words you disassociate with the communities at a whole. By doing this, this is how you get a lot of funky doctrines primary from Hebrew Roots entities or splinter groups. I think the cause is not being socialized with the Jewish communities by choice or by location. I see a lot of these splinter groups are not located in Jewish communities because of location. Yes it's not their fault. FFOZ prior to their changing beliefs served believers who weren't located and/ not socialized in Jewish communities with study's, teachings etc that were very in line with Messianic Judaism.[bless and do not curse]

In closing 'we the Messianic synagogue are part of the same community as you the reform/ conservative etc synagogue. This can apply even if you're not by physical location. That what it takes to be a Messianic Judaism.[bless and do not curse]

 

[Gxg (G²)]

by no accident Messianic congregations are located in the same community as our brethren in the flesh because we are part of the Jewish community.

In alot of places indeed...

 

[Henaynei]

OK, based on the thread above I am seeing some divisions in Messianic Judaism: two basic and probably a lot more branches. The more traditional for lack of a better word is the Torah following MJ's. The other is the non Torah following. The non Torah following appear to lean heavily toward the teaching in the new testament which we will summarize by (grace) and leave behind at least some if not all of what we call Mosaic Law.

you have a fairly good basic understanding of the two major divisions along that doctrinal line

Do the Torah believing MJ's discount or not believe those things written in the new testament stating that those who follow Christ are under grace, not the law; Christ's new commandments that some say top off and other's say supercede the 10 commandments; and anything else in the new testament that would enlighten me? I've heard something for example of some MJ's who do not believe the writings of the Apostle Paul.

I speak as an adherent of the Torah positive or observant group.

For ALL MJs "salvation is by grace (purchased by Messiah Yeshua's sacrifice) through faith.

For the Torah positive group James/Yaakov says it well. We believe that faith without works "is dead, being alone." Thus "you show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works." But be VERY clear. The works are evidence of faith, works DOES NOT earn or purchase salvation. Rather it is evidence of a true salvific relationship with G-d.

Now, our definition of "works" is obedience to the Instructions of G-d. "Instruction" is a more accurate definition of Torah, than is ""Law.

1 Yaakov 3:4 says "sin is transgression of the Law/Torah."

Among the Torah positive group there are 2 main groups: those who believe all of Torah applicable outside of Israel is required of all believers, and those who believe only Jewish believers are required to keep Torah but Gentile believers are required only to keep those laws specifically mentioned in the Ketuvi Shaleakhim/Apostolic Writings aka New Testament. Generally they see that as most of the 10 commandments and various moral laws such as those mentioned in Romans. Gentile believers are invited to learn more of Torah and even to apply more to their lives, but it is not required of them.

Among the Torah positive group that believes that Torah obedience is required of all believers there are 2 more divisions: those who believe that Torah keeping Gentiles are in essence Jews with all the privileges and obligations of Jews (and that if this distinction is denied them they are being treated as undermenchen or 2nd class citizens), and those who while keeping Torah would never claim to be Jews, just Gentiles drawn by G-d to stand with, dwell with and defend our Jewish brothers, believers and non-believers.

Believe it or not the above is a very simplified explanation and has many unfilled holes.

 

[Chaplain David]

If I do not reply after every reply from you it is not because I am ignoring you. It is because I am trying to keep the thread in order. I do thank every one of you and have appreciated my warm welcome here. I am starting to feel like I am beginning to understand better. This is all quite interesting. I've always been interested in the way others believe and worship. I was speaking with a friend of mine last night and she told me about going to Synagogue. If we had one here I would visit.

 

[mishkan]

I thought I would be able to get through a few more posts before questions started coming but here I am at the 3rd and my hand is going up the way it did in school when I was a boy.

Don't feel bad. I tell all my adult students to find themselves Jewish children's books in order to start learning the basics of culture and language.

Please forgive me in advance everyone, if I say something incorrect. I am not here to offend. If you point it out to me I will say thank you and apologize.

With that attitude, it will be very difficult to offend most of us.

OK, based on the thread above I am seeing some divisions in Messianic Judaism: two basic and probably a lot more branches. The more traditional for lack of a better word is the Torah following MJ's. The other is the non Torah following. The non Torah following appear to lean heavily toward the teaching in the new testament which we will summarize by (grace) and leave behind at least some if not all of what we call Mosaic Law.

Do the Torah believing MJ's discount or not believe those things written in the new testament stating that those who follow Christ are under grace, not the law; Christ's new commandments that some say top off and other's say supercede the 10 commandments; and anything else in the new testament that would enlighten me? I've heard something for example of some MJ's who do not believe the writings of the Apostle Paul.

That's a pretty astute observation. Yes, those who profess to be Messianic tend to fall into one of two main categories, defined by the role of the Mosaic Torah (usually translated "law", but better understood as "instruction").

Modern MJ, in its earlier phases several decades ago, began as a missionary movement of the Christian church. It was a way to "bring Jews to Jesus" and make them into "Christians". Those who held/hold this view generally also adopt the traditional Christian stance that the Torah has been somehow invalidated, and is of no significance to us today.

Since the late 1980's and early 1990's, however, there has been a growing trend among Messianics that is different (not necessarily mutually exclusive--just different). This part of the community holds that Torah remains the core of the Divine Instruction, and should be followed to the degree that it is possible today in our circumstances. This segment of the community believes Yeshua/Jesus did not do away with the Torah, but merely corrected the hypocritical observance and legalism that had become prevalent among Jewish leaders.

Although somewhat more recent, the Torah Observant participants would be regarded as "more traditional" is the context of a Jewish community. The first group would be more acceptable to a Christian Church community.

With few exceptions, all Messianics accept the writings of Paul and the other early Messianic leaders as authoritative and binding. The difference lies in the understanding of a few key words (like "nomos", usually translated "law), and the back-story we believe provides the context for the letters we read today.

Over the past few years, I have written several articles that address some of the verses that sit at the core of the debate regarding Paul's stance on Torah observance. If you're interested, you can find them at Study Series « Mishkan David, under "Defining Messianic".

 

[Chaplain David]

Well, there's no way I am going to be able to have only one question going at the same time so at least it will exercise our minds, right? I've been reading from websites about MJ.

I just read this Association of Messianic Congregations - What We Believe and it states:

The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life. Both Jewish and non-Jewish believers have the freedom in Messiah to maintain any aspects of the Law of Moses which do not violate the entirety of the rest of scripture. (Acts 21:24-26; Romans 6:14;8:2;10:4;14:1-23; 1 Corinthians 9:20; 2 Corinthians 3:1- 11; Galatians 3:3,3:10-13;6:2; Ephesians 2:14 )

QUESTION: Is this view of the Law of Moses progressive or liberal, as opposed to being unequivocally Torah observant and more conservative? (Hope I’m phrasing this right).

 

[yedida]

What will oftentimes come off as anti-paul (speaking for myself anyway) is when mainstream will take a few of his passages and use them to refute what Messianics believe. It comes off as anti-paul because, usually these are misappropriated passages used as prooftext and thus they cannot be validated by any other author except Paul, and they fly in the face of what Yeshua Himself spoke and what God through Moses spoke in Torah.
Maybe someone better with words, like David or Philip, can say it better. We are not really anti-paul, we are anti-misinterpretation?

 

[mishkan]

I just read this Association of Messianic Congregations - What We Believe and it states:

That group formed about 8 or 10 years ago, if I recall correctly. They have the support of a well-known Hebrew-Christian teacher named Arnold Fruchtenbaum. A good friend of mine is one of their officers.

The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life. Both Jewish and non-Jewish believers have the freedom in Messiah to maintain any aspects of the Law of Moses which do not violate the entirety of the rest of scripture. (Acts 21:24-26; Romans 6:14;8:2;10:4;14:1-23; 1 Corinthians 9:20; 2 Corinthians 3:1- 11; Galatians 3:3,3:10-13;6:2; Ephesians 2:14 )

QUESTION: Is this view of the Law of Moses progressive or liberal, as opposed to being unequivocally Torah observant and more conservative? (Hope I’m phrasing this right).

Let's see... How best to respond...

As I see it, that paragraph is one big contradiction, written by men who are trying to reconcile their anti-Torah position with the fact that the Torah is a direct revelation from God.

We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation.

Here, we see the concept that "fulfilled" is being used to mean "nullified". If there is no more obligation to obey the direct instructions of the Almighty Creator, then what's the point? But the approach they have inherited from their Christian theology is that the Law is the Big, Bad Wolf that had to be eliminated in order for us to have eternal life.

While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life.

Now that they have de-clawed the wolf, they have to throw a bone to those who still maintain that the Torah is God's instruction, and offers blessings to those who obey. They would rather shoot the wolf, and completely ignore the Torah, but they wouldn't be accepted by Messianics, then.

Both Jewish and non-Jewish believers have the freedom in Messiah to maintain any aspects of the Law of Moses which do not violate the entirety of the rest of scripture.

Here's the clincher... note the implication that there is some aspect of Torah observance that might be contrary to "the rest of Scripture". I take this to mean they are saying, "You can keep those parts of the Torah that don't run contrary to our notions of 'grace apart from works', just the way Luther said." As if any part of the Torah--the very core and foundation of all Biblical revelation--could be contrary to the rest of Scripture.

The guys in the AMC are lovely people, and I always enjoy talking with my friend there... but I think their theology is whack because it is based on a shakey foundation of anti-Torah assumptions.

 

[yedida]

Well, there's no way I am going to be able to have only one question going at the same time so at least it will exercise our minds, right? I've been reading from websites about MJ.

I just read this Association of Messianic Congregations - What We Believe and it states:

The Believer and the Law of Moses
We believe the Law of Moses as a rule of life has been fulfilled in the Messiah and therefore believers are no longer under its' obligation or condemnation. While the Law of Moses is no longer obligatory for believers, the Law has much to teach us regarding a joyfully Jewish way of life. Both Jewish and non-Jewish believers have the freedom in Messiah to maintain any aspects of the Law of Moses which do not violate the entirety of the rest of scripture. (Acts 21:24-26; Romans 6:14;8:2;10:4;14:1-23; 1 Corinthians 9:20; 2 Corinthians 3:1- 11; Galatians 3:3,3:10-13;6:2; Ephesians 2:14 )

QUESTION: Is this view of the Law of Moses progressive or liberal, as opposed to being unequivocally Torah observant and more conservative? (Hope I’m phrasing this right).

That would cover a large portion of Messianics - FFoZ's newer stance of Divine Invitation. Some would say it's more than an invitation, more of a responsibility, though not salvific. But, yes, that for the one who believes that the penalty of death, the condemnation, is what was abrogated (for them) in the death and resurrection of Yeshua, the Torah remains God's standard of right-living, set-apart living for the ransomed believer.

 

[Chaplain David]

That group formed about 8 or 10 years ago, if I recall correctly. They have the support of a well-known Hebrew-Christian teacher named Arnold Fruchtenbaum. A good friend of mine is one of their officers.


Let's see... How best to respond...

As I see it, that paragraph is one big contradiction, written by men who are trying to reconcile their anti-Torah position with the fact that the Torah is a direct revelation from God.


Here, we see the concept that "fulfilled" is being used to mean "nullified". If there is no more obligation to obey the direct instructions of the Almighty Creator, then what's the point? But the approach they have inherited from their Christian theology is that the Law is the Big, Bad Wolf that had to be eliminated in order for us to have eternal life.


Now that they have de-clawed the wolf, they have to throw a bone to those who still maintain that the Torah is God's instruction, and offers blessings to those who obey. They would rather shoot the wolf, and completely ignore the Torah, but they wouldn't be accepted by Messianics, then.


Here's the clincher... note the implication that there is some aspect of Torah observance that might be contrary to "the rest of Scripture". I take this to mean they are saying, "You can keep those parts of the Torah that don't run contrary to our notions of 'grace apart from works', just the way Luther said." As if any part of the Torah--the very core and foundation of all Biblical revelation--could be contrary to the rest of Scripture.

The guys in the AMC are lovely people, and I always enjoy talking with my friend there... but I think their theology is whack because it is based on a shakey foundation of anti-Torah assumptions.

So I'm not crazy this is an anti-Torah position. OK. I'm beginning to learn to recognize different doctrines. Thank you.

 

[yedida]

I knew David would say it better, he usually does.

 

[Henaynei]

That group formed about 8 or 10 years ago, if I recall correctly. They have the support of a well-known Hebrew-Christian teacher named Arnold Fruchtenbaum. A good friend of mine is one of their officers.

Let's see... How best to respond...

As I see it, that paragraph is one big contradiction, written by men who are trying to reconcile their anti-Torah position with the fact that the Torah is a direct revelation from God.

Here, we see the concept that "fulfilled" is being used to mean "nullified". If there is no more obligation to obey the direct instructions of the Almighty Creator, then what's the point? But the approach they have inherited from their Christian theology is that the Law is the Big, Bad Wolf that had to be eliminated in order for us to have eternal life.

Now that they have de-clawed the wolf, they have to throw a bone to those who still maintain that the Torah is God's instruction, and offers blessings to those who obey. They would rather shoot the wolf, and completely ignore the Torah, but they wouldn't be accepted by Messianics, then.

Here's the clincher... note the implication that there is some aspect of Torah observance that might be contrary to "the rest of Scripture". I take this to mean they are saying, "You can keep those parts of the Torah that don't run contrary to our notions of 'grace apart from works', just the way Luther said." As if any part of the Torah--the very core and foundation of all Biblical revelation--could be contrary to the rest of Scripture.

The guys in the AMC are lovely people, and I always enjoy talking with my friend there... but I think their theology is whack because it is based on a shakey foundation of anti-Torah assumptions.

Very well laid out and quite true.

 

[Chaplain David]

I am gratified that you are bearing with me as I search for more knowledge and understanding of Messianic Judaism. Thank you very much.

 

[Yahudim]

*snip*​

QUESTION: Is this view of the Law of Moses progressive or liberal, as opposed to being unequivocally Torah observant and more conservative? (Hope I’m phrasing this right).

Shalom Brother,

If I haven't said it yet, I very much appreciate your open attempts to understand what we believe. Thank you.

It is my understanding that any scripture that is interpreted to mean anything contrary to the divine utterances of the Most Holy One, then it is the interpretation that is suspect, not the word of Elohim. So rather than tell you how I view their position, let me reference the Master and His view of their theology.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I am sure that you are familiar with Hebrew parallelism as a poetry form and therefore a tool for interpreting scripture. I have emphasized some elements in this passage to consider in your analysis. Notice how, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" and "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me" build on the same idea? The same can be said of the actions enumerated in v22; A) they prophesied, B) they cast out demons, C) they did wonderful works - and all of these were done 'in His name'.

So what are the basic ideas here? The first is who will and who will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They are qualified as A) he that doeth the will of my Father and the antithetical parallelism B) ye that work iniquity. Since iniquity is synonymous with lawlessness and the only law of the Father is Torah, this more than implies Torah obedience. It practically screams it.

So this leads to the second major idea conveyed in this passage. This example begs the question:

1. Who are the believers in YHVH,
2. that call on the name of Y'shua to do miracles,
3. but also that do not do the will of the Father?

Because in this example, Messiah clearly states that those people will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. He personally will turn them away.

So who are the people described above that call on the name of Y'shua? What are they called? Do the Rabbinic Jews call on the name of Y'shua? Do the adherent to Islam call on the name of Y'shua? So who is it that Messiah was speaking to in this passage?

Where do we find the will of the Father if not in His Torah and in His Son that walked Torah perfectly?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I am gratified that you are bearing with me as I search for more knowledge and understanding of Messianic Judaism. Thank you very much.

It's pleasent to interact with believers who sincerely are seeking an understanding. David has the knowledge on Messianic Judaism. And yes there are splinter groups. The AMC is a much newer organization. Messianic Judaism was born from Hebrew Christianity as a result of having a home for Jewish believers and being part of the Jewish communities. I would say that the focus on the 'movement' isn't Torah observance which doesn't mean no Torah observance. It's more like a movement emphasizing and helping to usher in the Messiah to Jews because Israel plays a VERY important role in eschatology. Our congregation is involved and friendly with Christian churches which understand the important role in the salvation of Israel. It also serves as a home for believing Jews where they are comfortable where non Jews are also members sharing as one body in this movement.

We believe in Messianic Judaism that the 'church' isn't that believing Jews joined a totally separate entity/body of believers but that non Jews were added to an already existing body as equal fellow heirs of the promise in Christ as it's written;

Eph 3:6: This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

 

[mishkan]

Messianic Judaism was born from Hebrew Christianity as a result of having a home for Jewish believers and being part of the Jewish communities.

Good thumbnail sketch.

I would say that the focus on the 'movement' isn't Torah observance which doesn't mean no Torah observance. It's more like a movement emphasizing and helping to usher in the Messiah to Jews because Israel plays a VERY important role in eschatology.

I would even take this farther. My description of my own view turned into a fairly lengthy post, so I made a new thread of it.

We believe in Messianic Judaism that the 'church' isn't that believing Jews joined a totally separate entity/body of believers but that non Jews were added to an already existing body as equal fellow heirs of the promise in Christ as it's written;

Eph 3:6: This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Good man! Good to see when somebody "gets it". I love Ephesians. Every discussion seems to go back to Ephesians, somehow. And that third chapter clarifies just what Paul thought he was doing--going against the traditional posture, and freely bringing Gentiles into the community of Israel on the basis of their oath of allegiance to Yeshua, the heir to the Israeli throne.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Good man! Good to see when somebody "gets it". I love Ephesians. Every discussion seems to go back to Ephesians, somehow. And that third chapter clarifies just what Paul thought he was doing--going against the traditional posture, and freely bringing Gentiles into the community of Israel on the basis of their oath of allegiance to Yeshua, the heir to the Israeli throne.

Mark Nanos puts it well I think, 'the beginning of the dawning of the age...'

 

[Chaplain David]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

We have a guest here people, and he has very kindly asked to understand Messianic Judaism. What are we showing him here? does he have to change this thread to a MJ only one? Aren't there enough threads on the forum going right now to bally this subject ad nauseum?

I for one am frankly sick of every thread I go into to find the same thing going on.

It's no issue, except Gentiles should not keep shabbat as Jews do. Not a problem as most Gentiles don't.

Thank you Lulav. I've been largely away with the migraine thing but we're working on it and I'm trusting God and I have hope that all will turn out well.

Hello brothers and sisters, I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture? I had a couple of other questions but thought I'd stick to one at a time.