Question about Hell from another thread.

[Timothew]

When does God ever torture anyone? Ever?

He doesn't. I thought you were saying he does, or he will.

The purple bear was directed at "everyone else says it, so it can't be true."

oh

My College English professor used that defense on me once. He said "Although I have accepted a lot of papers like this in the past, now I've decided that I won't. Rewrite it." My answer should have been, "Since you've accepted papers like this in past, the precident has been set and you should accept this one also. Give me the same grade you gave them."

 

[razeontherock]

As non-believers aren't allowed to post in other threads here, I'm forced to create a new one. Anyway, in this thread Raze says this;

Later in the thread someone else says this;

Which of these is true?

Ok, the term false dichotomy doesn't really apply here, but you are making a distinction and positing it must be either / or, when that's not really the case.

I didn't remain in hell forever, so what God showed me about hell is not necessarily opposed to what Timothew believes.

Confused yet?

Either we have a hell, as per Raze's "vision", or Timothew is right in his assertion that God could not be a sadistic torturer.

Nope. Timothew and I aren't pitted against each other. We met long ago on that topic, and I don't recall how long it took us to realize this, but ... we're not.

Both our conceptions can be simultaneously true! You'll notice I didn't see anyone doing any torturing; not for a moment, let alone for eternity. Besides I'm still not that old!

For that matter, I'm quite curious Raze; why did God show you hell? Have you seen heaven?

No I have not seen heaven itself, nor any representation of it. You'll also notice a total lack of discussing that on my part

G-d has shown me a lot of things, esp about things I've asked Him about. I don't recall asking Him to take me to hell,not to explain what it was, or anything like that. I do remember getting the burns though, and that they were very slight. I escaped as almost lit ablaze, singed up past my knees, and smelling like foul smoke. (In addition to the *wonderful* smell of burning human hair, and almost cooked skin)

To say it was deeply troubling would be an understatement! And yet I was not left there any longer than it took for the reality of utter hopelessness to sink in, then WHOOSH! Raised straight UP and out of there. And yes I did physically leave the ground. And yes, said ground was physically burned up for over 40 feet in every direction. This was (to me) a unique combination of Spiritual enlightenment and physical reality, that hasn't been repeated.

WHY? It sure didn't sink in right away. I was disgusted at myself that i didn't change my life in any meaningful way, directly following this. So when unbelievers ask for evidence, I do indeed understand Jesus' words that even if someone returns from hell we won't believe them if we don't believe what the Bible says.

And I find there is still more for me to learn from this experience, which was in May or June of 1984.

G-d was showing me my relationship with Him wasn't about avoiding hell, which was at that point a given. He hasn't stopped wooing me since!

 

[razeontherock]

Trying to get an atheist to hold an intellectual debate without acting nasty and snobby might be futile.

I keep trying! Sometimes it even works. GOM and I have had some very good exchanges. (Just as one relevant example)

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

G-d was showing me my relationship with Him wasn't about avoiding hell, which was at that point a given. He hasn't stopped wooing me since!

God took you to hell to show you that your relationship wasn't about avoiding hell? I'm not quite sure I can accept that.

I'm also not sure what to make of the rest of your vision. As I said somewhere else in this thread, visions are a pretty standard phenomenon in many religions, and I know people personally who claim to have visions. None of the prophetic visions I've heard about from the people I know have ever come true. I'm not sure why this is, but these people I know do still believe in the efficacy of visions.

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I believe you believe in what you saw. I'm just saying that your vision isn't evidence that God is real. Furthermore, if your vision is true, then it presents a problem in that hell is real and God likes to torture people (whether eternally or not is debatable).

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Furthermore, if your vision is true, then it presents a problem in that hell is real and God likes to torture people (whether eternally or not is debatable).

I don't think it's correct to say God likes to punish, as if he gets some diabolical pleasure out of it. God executes justice according to God's standard. This is offensive to atheist because it doesn't measure up to their ideas of what is good verse evil, and what the correct punishment is. But the created is not in a position to correct the creator!

 

[Timothew]

I'm still waiting to see the proof that torture can be good somehow.
I don't buy the argument that torture is bad unless God does it.

 

[Timothew]

Genesis 18:25
Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?

 

[Soothfish]

OK. Whatever dude. At least I got you out of this thread so I can get some real answers now.

I apologize for being overly critical. I have witnessed many horrors throughout the world and this makes it very difficult for me to be non-judgmental towards many different people. Memories tend to resurface quickly.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I don't think it's correct to say God likes to punish, as if he gets some diabolical pleasure out of it. God executes justice according to God's standard. This is offensive to atheist because it doesn't measure up to their ideas of what is good verse evil, and what the correct punishment is. But the created is not in a position to correct the creator!

The problem atheists such as myself have with God's punishments is that they are never proportional to the crime. Adam and Eve sinned, so God punished the entire human race - he cursed the ground for men, and gave ALL women pain in childbirth. Do you believe that is proportional justice? Everywhere you look in the Bible, God's punishments are excessive and often bizarre with no sense to them. Sorry, but when I read the Bible it just seems like Yahweh is a God of senseless violence.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I apologize for being overly critical. I have witnessed many horrors throughout the world and this makes it very difficult for me to be non-judgmental towards many different people. Memories tend to resurface quickly.

Thank you for the apology. If you felt I was excessively angry towards you, then I, too, offer my own apology.

 

[razeontherock]

God took you to hell to show you that your relationship wasn't about avoiding hell? I'm not quite sure I can accept that.

Yeah well that part didn't sink in for quite some time. Like 25+ years?

I'm also not sure what to make of the rest of your vision. As I said somewhere else in this thread, visions are a pretty standard phenomenon in many religions, and I know people personally who claim to have visions. None of the prophetic visions I've heard about from the people I know have ever come true.

You'll notice this wasn't prophetic. Also, I've never had a "prophetic vision." I will point out though, that it was prophesied that I would be given a "tour of the Spirit," which did indeed happen. Those were unique circumstances, over a year afterwards.

I'm just saying that your vision isn't evidence that God is real.

Not for you it isn't, no. Never said it would be. I'm the one that points out that what Jesus said is true, that even if someone were to die and come back from hell, you wouldn't believe him if you don't believe the Scriptures.

Furthermore, if your vision is true, then it presents a problem in that hell is real and God likes to torture people

That doesn't flow logically at all. Where do you get either:

torturing people, or
liking it?

For that matter, does the vision state that hell is real? I certainly took it that way, but then wouldn't you think that would be a life-changing experience? It wasn't. It was part of a process leading up to that, though. By 5 months later, in conjunction with many other things, I was radically different.

 

[razeontherock]

The problem atheists such as myself have with God's punishments is that they are never proportional to the crime. Everywhere you look in the Bible, God's punishments are excessive and often bizarre with no sense to them. Sorry, but when I read the Bible it just seems like Yahweh is a God of senseless violence.

Did it ever occur to you that there might be a purpose for this? That maybe part of that is it was written to a different culture, in which things would have had a specific meaning, not at all apparent to us? Take a current newspaper headline: "Seahawks beat Lions." 3500 years from now, people will say "huh?"

Hermeneutics unravel such mysteries, but are usually not perfect.

Then there's the whole bit of being challenged by God's Justice. What's He really saying, or doing? What IS the point? Admitting that we missed it is only a first step. Having that be our last step makes us just like the rich young ruler, who got His answer from Jesus, only to walk away sorrowful.

And for all that, there's still this:

(Romans 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Did it ever occur to you that there might be a purpose for this? That maybe part of that is it was written to a different culture, in which things would have had a specific meaning, not at all apparent to us? Take a current newspaper headline: "Seahawks beat Lions." 3500 years from now, people will say "huh?"

Hermeneutics unravel such mysteries, but are usually not perfect.

Then there's the whole bit of being challenged by God's Justice. What's He really saying, or doing? What IS the point? Admitting that we missed it is only a first step. Having that be our last step makes us just like the rich young ruler, who got His answer from Jesus, only to walk away sorrowful.

I suppose the biggest issue is whether one reads the stories in the Bible as literal-historical events, or as allegory. However, when God commands the Hebrews to slaughter men, women and children, and livestock from other nations I'm not really sure what moral highlights can be gained from that, whether you read it literally or allegorically. In a cultural context, and the context of its own time, these stories make sense in some way; that's were humans were at right then, morally speaking. However, I've argued before that God did nothing, in delivering his commandments, to better society.

My point still stands though. God's sense of justice is disproportional. There are very few occurrences in the Bible where the punishment fits the crime. If one person sins in the OT, God will wipe out the entire family. If a few men sin, God tells Moses to slaughter as many men as he can. In the case of David's adultery, God decided to kill David's son (I've debated that one on this forum too, and all of the replies I got said how the Christians thought this was a fair punishment). Then there's the story of Job, which is not so much a punishment as just God and Satan both having fun destroying an innocent man's life, all for a bet.

 

[razeontherock]

I suppose the biggest issue is whether one reads the stories in the Bible as literal-historical events, or as allegory. However, when God commands the Hebrews to slaughter men, women and children, and livestock from other nations I'm not really sure what moral highlights can be gained from that, whether you read it literally or allegorically.

I am. None of it's simple, but undertaking a fool's errand anyway:

it's all about sin. How we conquer it, within. Each name and place has specific meaning. And G-d doesn't like any of it. We are to be merciless in our destruction of our own sin. Add to that the fact that archaeology says none of this ever happened, and it's easy to arrive at "myth with moral."

Another way of looking at it is what Jews teach, as well as many Christian denoms; that G-d never commanded any of it. People just got it wrong. I haven't found any way to reconcile both these approaches, but either solves your dilemma. I prefer the first because of the word pictures it paints.

My point still stands though. God's sense of justice is disproportional. There are very few occurrences in the Bible where the punishment fits the crime.

And yet Scripture makes a point of saying that His Judgments are righteous, true, etc. Apparently He has access to info that we don't. Ultimately we're all placed in real-life situations where we really don't understand, and we either trust Him, or we don't.

If one person sins in the OT, God will wipe out the entire family. If a few men sin, God tells Moses to slaughter as many men as he can. In the case of David's adultery, God decided to kill David's son (I've debated that one on this forum too, and all of the replies I got said how the Christians thought this was a fair punishment). Then there's the story of Job, which is not so much a punishment as just God and Satan both having fun destroying an innocent man's life, all for a bet.

So much distortion here too! I'm pretty sure you and I have been down the road of Job not being a "bet." I'm not sure what you might call it, but "bet" isn't it. If you disagree, go ahead and establish that point.

David was punished, yes. He's still called "a man after G-d's own heart."

I don't see your first 2 sentences here as being true. What about the time G-d would've spared the whole city for the sake of 10 righteous? You have a bias showing here; I'd like to see that leveled out a little.

 

[unique101]

Why does God, being a righteous Judge and all, make Him sadistic? Why are His punishments "evil?" By what standard are we judging God? Where does that standard come from? Are we fit to judge Him?

As per Hell, I believe it's only torment because by definition, it's the absence of God's presence (of course He's omnipresent, but He doesn't associate or show Himself to anyone there). That would mean it's void of love, joy, peace, righteousness, purity, etc. so logically that leaves...

We would not know God if HE did not introduce HIMSELF to us through HIS revelation to man. HE tells us how we can know HIM and that is through his signs. The questions we should ask ourselves is WHY DID GOD CREATE US THE FIRST PLACE AND WHY ARE WE HERE? Once we have answers to those two questions then we can start commenting about HIS justice.

The Seeker of Truth

 

[ChristianT]

We would not know God if HE did not introduce HIMSELF to us through HIS revelation to man. HE tells us how we can know HIM and that is through his signs. The questions we should ask ourselves is WHY DID GOD CREATE US THE FIRST PLACE AND WHY ARE WE HERE? Once we have answers to those two questions then we can start commenting about HIS justice.

The Seeker of Truth

Yes? I agree with everything you said in this quote. Anything else?

 

[drich0150]

As non-believers aren't allowed to post in other threads here, I'm forced to create a new one. Anyway, in this thread Raze says this;



Later in the thread someone else says this;



Which of these is true? Either we have a hell, as per Raze's "vision", or Timothew is right in his assertion that God could not be a sadistic torturer.

For that matter, I'm quite curious Raze; why did God show you hell? Have you seen heaven?

There are those who do not know how to incorporate the Hell described in the bible into their understanding of God, and then there are some who get to go. Why? I suspect it is to help balance out the notion that Love and righteousness can not coexist with in the same God.

 

[Timothew]

There are those who do not know how to incorporate the Hell described in the bible into their understanding of God, and then there are some who get to go. Why? I suspect it is to help balance out the notion that Love and righteousness can not coexist with in the same God.

No, it is because I read the bible, understanding what kind of literature each section is. I don't read allegorical passages literally and I don't read literal passages figuratively.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

From this verse I understand that some perish and some have eternal life. The ones who perish do not have eternal life being tortured in hell.

 

[Soothfish]

I suppose the biggest issue is whether one reads the stories in the Bible as literal-historical events, or as allegory. However, when God commands the Hebrews to slaughter men, women and children, and livestock from other nations I'm not really sure what moral highlights can be gained from that, whether you read it literally or allegorically.

The Bible never says that God is pleased or delighted with the slaughter of men, women, and children. Although he is pleased with the removal of a corrupt social system or when evil men are simply defeated in their quest for conquest or when humans are simply allowed to sow and then reap. He allows evil even to the point of making it sound like a command. God is the ultimate 'libertarian' so to speak. If a nation turns to cruelty and/or conquest, then he will do nothing to stop another nation from destroying them in the worst way. This includes the Hebrews fighting another nation. This doesn't mean that there is no sin being done by the Hebrews, only that there are no special physical protections for the targeted nation. It also went the other way around. God allowed other nations to crush the Hebrews when the Hebrews turned from him.

God grants freedom at a level that even allows non-combatant women and children to get killed in horrible ways. He allows people to do any evil they want except when it might impact the ultimate plan of covering the sins of the deceased and raising them from the dead (i.e by protecting the prophets of Israel). If they are going to get resurrected then all the atrocities in history are little more than a blip in time compared to eternity. In the end, everyone who chose that evil will be judged accordingly. Even Moses was a terrible sinner who would need to be covered by Christ.

None of this makes ANY sense at all without Christ and the resurrection. None. Without it, we just have women and children getting killed. If God didn't exist, then there was only women and children getting killed.

 

[anunbeliever]

For me the sticking point of hell is its eternal nature. Jesus talks about some being punished more harshly than others in the afterlife. So there is already a scale. However even mild punishment, for eternity, is an infinite punishment. How would a just God sentence anyone to infinite punishment for a finite sin? Even Hilter would not deserve to suffer for eternity.