What scriptures support praying to the saints?

[Chany]

The first 2 refer to saints on earth. Saints are the believers in Christ (I Cor.1:2 KJV); i.e., Christians, not dead RCs canonized by the Rome. The context is an allegorical vision; not a good 'proof text.' And it says nothing about saints in heaven.

I don't see where it says we can't pray to those who've left this world.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I dont see where Jesus teaches to pray to any other then the Father.

They ask "teach us how to pray"... he says when you pray "say Our Father"

Other nations were known to pray to other gods, so folks can chose to pray to whomever they want.

Its just not how Jesus taught

 

[Thekla]

I dont see where Jesus teaches to pray to any other then the Father.

They ask "teach us how to pray"... he says when you pray "say Our Father"

Other nations were known to pray to other gods, so folks can chose to pray to whomever they want.

Its just not how Jesus taught

I don't know if I'll make any sense, but this seems to be a translating problem.

Christ, when He teaches us to pray, uses a Greek term that is (almost ?) always used with God. "Proseuxe" is translated "pray". (It means "pros/towards" and "euxomai/boast/assert/profess/pray/beseech/vow".)

But there are (iirc) five other Greek words that can be translated "pray".

In older forms of English, the term "pray" just meant "ask". When people say they "pray to the Saints or the saints", they are using the older (polite) English meaning of "ask".

It would be more accurate to say "ask the Saints or the saints", but the term "pray" still gets used.

Hope that helps ...

 

[Standing Up]

I dont see where Jesus teaches to pray to any other then the Father.

They ask "teach us how to pray"... he says when you pray "say Our Father"

Other nations were known to pray to other gods, so folks can chose to pray to whomever they want.

Its just not how Jesus taught

Right.

Two on earth.

Ask those on earth to pray with us.

Nothing about petitioning the deceased. It's a tradition that arose apart from apostles.

 

[Thekla]

Right.

Two on earth.

Ask those on earth to pray with us.

Nothing about petitioning the deceased. It's a tradition that arose apart from apostles.

Actually, it was long practiced in Judaism (since the Joseph was carried captive into Egypt), and never stopped (nor corrected by Christ, nor the apostles).

Further, Christ says the Holy Spirit will be among us, and that those who live in Him will never die. The body of Christ is not separated, and all parts of the body of Christ are needful (Paul).

 

[Standing Up]

Actually, it was long practiced in Judaism (since the Joseph was carried captive into Egypt), and never stopped (nor corrected by Christ, nor the apostles).

-snip-

Last I checked we were Christians, not practicing Judaism.

 

[jackmt]

Actually, it was long practiced in Judaism (since the Joseph was carried captive into Egypt), and never stopped (nor corrected by Christ, nor the apostles).

Further, Christ says the Holy Spirit will be among us, and that those who live in Him will never die. The body of Christ is not separated, and all parts of the body of Christ are needful (Paul).

Was it practiced Scripturally in Judaism? Are you referring to the Maccabees? Thet were not priests and so sacrificed contrary to the law. They also prayed for the dead, which goes against Scripture. (II Sam.12:21-23) This is why Jews and non RCs reject the books, among other reasons.

 

[jackmt]

I don't see where it says we can't pray to those who've left this world.

Arguing from silence of the Scriptures we can prove nearly anything, Scriptural or not.

 

[Thekla]

Last I checked we were Christians, not practicing Judaism.

We don't practice Judaism, that is correct.

But we have inherited a great deal of value from Judaism; God willed the pre-eternal Logos to be incarnated and born a Jew, and to fill the throne of David. From Judaism we inherit the Scriptures, and their teachings which prepare for Christ.

Christ promised that those who believe in Him will never die. Paul taught that those who believe in Christ are His body, and that all parts of the body of Christ are needful. Paul taught that to die is to be with Christ, and that not even death can separate us from the love of God. Does God love death ? How can He Who is life and the author of life be the body of death ?

I believe the teachings of Christ and His apostle, Paul.

What about you ?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Thanks for trying Thelka but you know I just dont see the teaching of Jesus Christ or the apostles reflected in all of that.

I do know you can pray to or ask the Father, and he speaks of where two on earth agree it will be done for them by my Father in heaven

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.


1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

So both asking and praying (as in prayers) are shown

And it shows two words for pray

Pray proseuchomai
1) to offer prayers, to pray

pray 83, make prayer 3, pray for 1

pray deomai
1) to want, lack
2) to desire, long for
3) to ask, beg
a) the thing asked for
b) to pray, make supplications

pray 12, beseech 9, make request 1

Both of which apply to the Father but the second I have found in relation to others, like when he says I "pray thee" its not the same word.

Either way, Jesus taught them how to ask the Father, and how to pray saying "Our Father". And he adds I say NOT to you that I will pray the Father for you but continues to say the Father Himself loves you because you believe I have come from God. He gave no other instruction or alternatives but to pray the Father in His name. Afterall its by Him we come to God. However he does say its fine that the two of you ON EARTH agree (and he did specify on earth)

And as we can see (as we have the apostles for our examples) of them asking the brethren (on earth) to pray for them. But you never hear of them mentioning praying to anyone else in heaven.

 

[Thekla]

Was it practiced Scripturally in Judaism? Are you referring to the Maccabees? Thet were not priests and so sacrificed contrary to the law. They also prayed for the dead, which goes against Scripture. (II Sam.12:21-23) This is why Jews and non RCs reject the books, among other reasons.

I do not understand what you are getting at re:

21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Where does it state in Scripture not to pray for those who are alive in Christ ?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Right.

Two on earth.

Ask those on earth to pray with us.

Nothing about petitioning the deceased. It's a tradition that arose apart from apostles.

I agree I do not see it as being after Christ. Its neither the teaching of Jesus Christ nor in the teaching of His Apostles.

 

[Thekla]

Thanks for trying Thelka but you know I just dont see the teaching of Jesus Christ or the apostles reflected in all of that.

I do know you can pray to or ask the Father, and he speaks of where two on earth agree it will be done for them by my Father in heaven

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.


1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

So both asking and praying (as in prayers) are shown

And it shows two words for pray

Pray proseuchomai
1) to offer prayers, to pray

pray 83, make prayer 3, pray for 1

pray deomai
1) to want, lack
2) to desire, long for
3) to ask, beg
a) the thing asked for
b) to pray, make supplications

pray 12, beseech 9, make request 1

Both of which apply to the Father but the second I have found in relation to others, like when he says I "pray thee" its not the same word.

Either way, Jesus taught them how to ask the Father, and how to pray saying "Our Father". And he adds I say NOT to you that I will pray the Father for you but continues to say the Father Himself loves you because you believe I have come from God. He gave no other instruction or alternatives but to pray the Father in His name. Afterall its by Him we come to God. However he does say its fine that the two of you ON EARTH agree (and he did specify on earth)

And as we can see (as we have the apostles for our examples) of them asking the brethren (on earth) to pray for them. But you never hear of them mentioning praying to anyone else in heaven.

To ask = to pray.

This is not the same as prayer as worship.

Paraklesis, eratw, euchomai, aiteo, entynchano, hyperentynchano. But again, the term "pray" can mean to ask:

pray |prā|
verb [ intrans. ]
address a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity or other object of worship : the whole family is praying for Michael | [ trans. ] pray God this is true.
• wish or hope strongly for a particular outcome or situation : after several days of rain, we were praying for sun | [with clause ] I prayed that James wouldn't notice.
adverb formal or archaic
used as a preface to polite requests or instructions : pray continue.
• used as a way of adding ironic or sarcastic emphasis to a question : and what, pray, was the purpose of that?
ORIGIN Middle English (in the sense [ask earnestly] ): from Old French preier, from late Latin precare, alteration of Latin precari ‘entreat.’

Is the body of Christ separated, or not ?

But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Do we cease to be of Christ at death ? Do we cease to be part of His body then, or ever ?

Christ promised that those who believe in Him will never die.

I agree with Christ

 

[Standing Up]

We don't practice Judaism, that is correct.-snip-

May I therefore suggest, if you start to not practice Judaism and instead practice Christianity, you'll have to find a different reason to support your "old" judaistic practice.

 

[Standing Up]

I agree I do not see it as being after Christ. Its neither the teaching of Jesus Christ nor in the teaching of His Apostles.

Right. Thekla insists the practice has come out of Judaism. IIRC 1 Maccabees supports the notion. Some do not even consider Macc to be God-breathed.

If the apostles wanted us to practice Judaism, they'd have taught us the law of Moses. Not sure why there's such a disconnect between the two judaistic practices.

 

[Standing Up]

Is the body of Christ separated, or not ?

Christ and the apostles certainly knew what they were saying. Christ said two "on earth" agree. Paul said to the living on earth to pray. There is no where in the NT the notion of invoking the deceased. They had two perfect examples in James and Stephen by which to teach this tradition. They didn't. Nor do we.

 

[Thekla]

May I therefore suggest, if you start to not practice Judaism and instead practice Christianity, you'll have to find a different reason to support your "old" judaistic practice.

I've described the teachings of the NT (beyond where the *snip* is in your quote).

Which part of Christ do you not love ?

Which part of the body of Christ is dead ?

 

[Thekla]

Right. Thekla insists the practice has come out of Judaism. IIRC 1 Maccabees supports the notion. Some do not even consider Macc to be God-breathed.

If the apostles wanted us to practice Judaism, they'd have taught us the law of Moses. Not sure why there's such a disconnect between the two judaistic practices.

Where is the instruction against asking Rachel and others to pray for us ?

 

[Fireinfolding]

May I therefore suggest, if you start to not practice Judaism and instead practice Christianity, you'll have to find a different reason to support your "old" judaistic practice.

Even Jesus speaks of their traditions and the apostles of Jewish fables and to give no heed to them.

Jesus didnt teach it and the apostles didnt teach it and I regard it as another doctrine.

We disagree Thelks

 

[jackmt]

I do not understand what you are getting at re:



Where does it state in Scripture not to pray for those who are alive in Christ ?

In this passage is is as explicit as can be without being explicit. While the child was alive, David prayed for him. As soon as the child died, his prayers no longer had any efficacy.

Where in Scripture does it specifically advocate prayers to or for the dead?