Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

[Henaynei]

Let me ask you, if you only eat 'biblical kosher' then how do you determine if the fish you eat is Kosher?

Did you know that pork fat and broth can be classified on a label as 'natural flavors'? Or that some foods contain civet, which comes from cats, things such as flavoring for beverages, ice cream, ices, candy, baked goods and chewing gum?

Or what about your breakfast, do you use Maple syrup on your pancakes? waffles? does it have a hecksher? why would it need one? Did you know that lard is used on the equipment to keep the syrup flowing, and is called a release agent, but is not required to be put on the label and it's label can read '100% maple syrup'.

Speaking of Breakfast, Is your toast kosher? do you think it only contains, wheat, eggs, milk, water, baking powder, salt? Did you know that most commercial baked goods contain a product from human hair called l-cysteine, and not only that but much of that hair is obtained from religious sacrifices? L-cysteine is an amino acid, the name amino actually comes from a pagan deity.

Do you ever eat sushi? wrapped in seaweed? Did you know that the seaweed is kosher, but that it may contain almost microscopic seahorses, which are not kosher?

The list of examples can go on and on, I trust someone who is bound by the Torah to keep it and help others to keep it to the best of their abilities.

Well put

 

[pat34lee]

Let me ask you, if you only eat 'biblical kosher' then how do you determine if the fish you eat is Kosher?

Did you......etc, etc.?

It's a wonder Jews are still around, since kosher certification on anything but meat started less than 100 years ago. One would think they would have starved, not knowing what was safe to eat without a rabbi to tell them.

 

[xDenax]

It's a wonder Jews are still around, since kosher certification on anything but meat started less than 100 years ago. One would think they would have starved, not knowing what was safe to eat without a rabbi to tell them.

You're kinda rude, you know that?

 

[pat34lee]

You're kinda rude, you know that?

I'm not the one who is trying to claim that it's impossible to eat clean unless you buy only kosher certified food. True, it's getting harder to find, but it is still available. Still, I should have added the caveat, "If kosher certification is the only way to ensure clean food, then..."

 

[jcpro]

You're kinda rude, you know that?

I'm not too sure what's the issue here beside anti Rabbinical rethoric. The Goyim can do whatever they want and are not bound by our rules. Live and let live-eat whatever you like. As you said, no need to be rude. If they(non Jews) don't like our labels-ignore them. Kosher labels are only for us, anyway.

 

[Lulav]

It's a wonder Jews are still around, since kosher certification on anything but meat started less than 100 years ago. One would think they would have starved, not knowing what was safe to eat without a rabbi to tell them.

It came with the industrial age where we no longer grow our own food.

But now that you mention it, keeping kosher has kept the Jews alive despite the nations trying to kill us. Take the devastating plaques throughout Europe and around the Mediterranean. Practices of Passover, keeping food contained so no rodents could get into it as well as hand washing rituals all helped to keep them healthier then their Christian neighbors.

 

[yedida]

There you go.

 

[pat34lee]

It came with the industrial age where we no longer grow our own food.

But now that you mention it, keeping kosher has kept the Jews alive despite the nations trying to kill us. Take the devastating plaques throughout Europe and around the Mediterranean. Practices of Passover, keeping food contained so no rodents could get into it as well as hand washing rituals all helped to keep them healthier then their Christian neighbors.

That is probably true to an extent, though don't you think YHWH could have kept the plagues away as he did in Egypt regardless of their traditions? I did not start this to bash kosher, just to say that it is still possible to eat clean even with products not labeled kosher.

 

[Henaynei]

That is probably true to an extent, though don't you think YHWH could have kept the plagues away as he did in Egypt regardless of their traditions? I did not start this to bash kosher, just to say that it is still possible to eat clean even with products not labeled kosher.

Only if you make everything truly from scratch. Nothing premade bagged, canned or boxed. And you grow your own meat and veggies or get it locally enough that you know how it was grown.
And still the meat would not be kosher because it would not have been slaughtered "in the way I have shown you" because no where in scripture does it explain what He showed them. That has been transmitted verbally from Moshe to the Great men of the Assembly to the Rabbis until Mishnah was codified by Judah HaNassi.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Please forgive my ignorance; How is game meat viewed? ...for the hunters out there?

 

[MessianicMommy]

IIRC, it has to be caught and slaughtered without having been shot first.

 

[yedida]

IIRC, it has to be caught and slaughtered without having been shot first.

Next time you hear someone say that we Messianics would rather "earn" our salvation by following Torah than receive it for free, think of what you've read in this thread. Then you can honestly shake your head in amazement as you tell them they're crazy!! Nobody would go through all this when we know salvation is free to all who believe. (We're not all on the levels that Ani and Henaynei and others are on but many of us are on a forward move toward it.)

 

[Henaynei]

Please forgive my ignorance; How is game meat viewed? ...for the hunters out there?

IIRC, it has to be caught and slaughtered without having been shot first.

I'm not sure that is entirely true according to scripture.
Esau took bow/arrow to get venison for Yitzkakh.

Scripture actually tells us that we have to drain the blood and then cover the blood with earth when we hunt. That is more information than is given about domestic slaughter.


Bible Verses about Hunting


Genesis 27:3 ESV
Now then, take your weapons, your quiver and your bow, and go out to the field and hunt game for me,

Genesis 27:5 ESV
Now Rebekah was listening when Isaac spoke to his son Esau. So when Esau went to the field to hunt for game and bring it,

Genesis 27:33 ESV
Then Isaac trembled very violently and said, "Who was it then that hunted game and brought it to me, and I ate it all before you came, and I have blessed him? Yes, and he shall be blessed."


Genesis 10:9 ESV
He was a mighty hunter before the L-rd. Therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod a mighty hunter before the L-rd."


Genesis 21:20 ESV
And G-d was with the boy (David), and he grew up. He lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow.


Leviticus 17:13 ESV
"Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth.


1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that G-d created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by G-d is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of G-d and prayer.

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I have worked with wild hoof stock. Are you aware that hunters are killed by them every year? Are you aware that it is their hooves that kill more than their antlers? It is like street fighting a fellow with four thrashing long sharp blades.
One can not safely "catch and slaughter without shooting." A frightened or defensive deer or elk or sheep or goat or buffalo is an extremely dangerous animal. You can't just walk to them and say "excuse me, but I'm going to cut your throat now."
Above are some scriptures that show that bow and arrow were used for hunting. Also the Leviticus 17 where G-d says what is done after you hunt your game.
Snares, nets, traps were used by the fowler to catch birds - see Psalms and Proverbs.
In this day and age very few Jewish people have to depend on wild game for there meat. And for many who want game meats there are now farmed deer and other hoof stock.
But when moving West in the 1800's or when for centuries they lived in wild unsettled areas - such as when living in the desert, Jewish people have hunted and they used weapons to hunt.

 

[pat34lee]

Only if you make everything truly from scratch. Nothing premade bagged, canned or boxed. And you grow your own meat and veggies or get it locally enough that you know how it was grown.
And still the meat would not be kosher because it would not have been slaughtered "in the way I have shown you" because no where in scripture does it explain what He showed them. That has been transmitted verbally from Moshe to the Great men of the Assembly to the Rabbis until Mishnah was codified by Judah HaNassi.

No part of the talmud is older than the Babylonian captivity. The only link from it to Moses was in the minds of the Pharisees who wanted their post-temple grab for power to appear legitimate. The Pharisees themselves did not exist as a sect prior to the revolt of the Maccabees.

I don't know if you are gentile or Jewish, but if you're a gentile, you do know that as soon as you open a kosher food, it is no longer kosher?

Edit: I had to find the verse you mentioned, which is Deut. 12:21. It is speaking of what he just said in v. 15-16, not some unknown instructions.

 

[MessianicMommy]

Henaynei, I was quoting something I had read some time back when looking into the kosher legalities of hunting.

Kosher slaughter
Animals must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish ritual by a shohet (kosher slaugterer) with a precise understanding of the complex laws governing shehitah (slaughtering) in order to qualify as kosher. The kill must be made by slicing across the esophagus and jugular with a perfectly smooth blade in order to cause instant death without pain to the animal. For this reason, animals killed by hunting are not acceptable. Thus, while a deer may be kosher if raised on a farm, it is not permissable to eat a deer that has been killed while hunting.

Keeping It Kosher - The Basics - What Should You Know About Kosher Cuisine? - Epinions.com

Judaism has no outright prohibition on hunting, but kosher dietary laws make it difficult to kill an animal in the wild, said Rabbi Ilan Emmanuel of Lincoln’s Congregation B’nai Jeshurun (South Street Temple).
“Animals have to be slaughtered in a particular way, and hunting isn’t it,” he said. An animal is to be killed by slitting its throat in a ritual manner, killing it quickly and allowing the blood to drain out, he said. It would be nearly impossible for a hunter with a gun or bow and arrow to fulfill that requirement.
“Jewish tradition isn’t particularly keen on hunting,” he added. “It’s certainly not a big Jewish cultural thing. It’s not so much a love of animals, but the belief that we shouldn’t enjoy killing creatures for sport.”
Rabbi Royi Shaffin of Tiffereth Israel Synagogue noted that the only way a hunter could properly follow kosher rules would be to trap an animal without harming it, then have a rabbi ritually slaughter the creature.
“I do know some hunters who are Jewish,” he said. “But they definitely are not following Jewish tradition and Jewish law.”

Read more: Religions differ on attitudes toward hunting
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...hunting and trapping for legitimate needs is permissible only when it is done in the least painful way possible.

Judaism 101: Treatment of Animals

The Torah does not forbid hunting, and specifically refers to hunting wild animals for food (Leviticus 17:13, Living Torah translation): "If any man, whether of the family of Israel or a proselyte who joins them, traps an animal or bird that may be eaten and spills its blood, he must cover [the blood] with earth." But note that the verse is careful to specify that the prey is an animal that may be eaten; even in this case, the animal must not be killed by the hunt but rather must be ritually slaughtered like a domesticated animal.

The Jewish Ethicist: Judaism and Hunting

Kosher slaughter comes up often in politics here in Europe, and there are so few places one can get kosher meat here, most of it being imported since kosher slaughter was outlawed 70+ years ago and the law was never repealed. So mostly what we get is out of France, the UK, or Israel. There aren't heschers on everything - unless it's the imported stuff going only to the Jewish community. Most are in and around very large cities (Frankfurt am Main, Berlin, München (Munich), Worms...) and only those cities.

So the thing that comes up when discussing kashrut is that some versions of halal allows for the animals to be stunned (bolt or otherwise) when slaughtered, but Kashrut never, ever does (it's considered tearing the meat) - which is one reason why "we don't go hunting".

Last year the big news was whether or not to stop Halal and Kosher slaughter in the UK due to those modes of slaughter being "cruelty to animals" despite research that suggests our ways of slaughter are actually better and less cruel when done properly. (as evidenced by research that monitored heart rate and animal reactions while being slaughtered)

They ended up never outlawing either, and it kind of being swept under the rug for the time being.

I recall a conversation a few years back while I was still under my old handle that also came to the conclusion that hunting (for sport or food) wasn't able to be done kosher due to the fact the animal would be shot (torn) prior to shechita.

I'm a little familiar with deer and elk (due to the fact they're huge and have been where I last lived and where I live now) and the fact they can be dangerous in rutting season or when they cross the road. I wouldn't want to tangle with one tbh.

 

[Henaynei]

MM,
You are right about current halakah on hunting.
I was merely point out that the halakah was different in the past due to circumstances.
Maybe today Jewish hunters could use tranquilizers to put the animal down safely and then slaughter... But that would make very sleepy dinner guests due to getting their dose from the meat
Perhaps halakah would be different for observant folk living where wild was their only source of good protein

 

[Jerushabelle]

I'm not too sure what's the issue here beside anti Rabbinical rethoric. The Goyim can do whatever they want and are not bound by our rules. Live and let live-eat whatever you like. As you said, no need to be rude. If they(non Jews) don't like our labels-ignore them. Kosher labels are only for us, anyway.

Kosher has a place in the life of a Torah observant Christian. Is it salvific?...No.
So, we eat something inadvertently that is not Kosher or we eat what is labeled Kosher when indeed it is not. Who bears the responsiblity for that, in light of our salvation through Yeshua, us? No. God judges our hearts not by what we eat but by our heartfelt desire to be obedient.

 

[visionary]

I would like to see Messianics have their own halacha, with their own label on foods that not only exceed the current Judaism standards, but also take into consideration Monsanto's manipulations, organic food, and health issues of today's population.

 

[pat34lee]

I would like to see Messianics have their own halacha, with their own label on foods that not only exceed the current Judaism standards, but also take into consideration Monsanto's manipulations, organic food, and health issues of today's population.

What would work also is a food co-op, where messianics and others wanting clean food can get with farmers, ranchers, etc. as a group to buy directly. The problem is that the FDA doesn't want us to have the choice of totally natural foods, particularly raw (unpasteurized) milk and items made from it.
FDA Issues Second Armed Raid on California Food Co-op | West | United States | Epoch Times

 

[visionary]

What would work also is a food co-op, where messianics and others wanting clean food can get with farmers, ranchers, etc. as a group to buy directly. The problem is that the FDA doesn't want us to have the choice of totally natural foods, particularly raw (unpasteurized) milk and items made from it.
FDA Issues Second Armed Raid on California Food Co-op | West | United States | Epoch Times

And many people don't know of this war going on right here in the USA. sad and scary