Scottish Independence

[lismore]

At least the Scottish government is giving their people a referendum, which is more than the English parliament is giving their people on Europe!

 

[genestealerbroodlord]

I would be fine with Scotland becoming an independent state in the EU, but only once the EU is more united. It still a few decades away because the EU if fully united.

My view is that in order for Europe to become more united, it needs more countries to take steps towards that. If everyone just waits till it's more united before they do anything, then it will never happen. We need countries to be brave and just do it, accept that there is going to be hard times at the start, rather than reaping the rewards when all the hard work is done.

 

[theFijian]

But if there is one economy I would assume the money would be shared more, so it doesn't matter if one country makes less than another. Each individual state could still be fairly free with its economy.

Oh yes it does matter is one economy makes less than another, why are strong economies like Germany bailing out all the failing southern economies like Greece and Portugal.

If a united Europe is such a great idea why has the Euro failed so miserably?

 

[Montalban]

If a united Europe is such a great idea why has the Euro failed so miserably?

Greece is the word

 

[Paradoxum]

My view is that in order for Europe to become more united, it needs more countries to take steps towards that. If everyone just waits till it's more united before they do anything, then it will never happen. We need countries to be brave and just do it, accept that there is going to be hard times at the start, rather than reaping the rewards when all the hard work is done.

I agree that we should take steps towards unity, but I don't see why an independent Scotland would help that.

If a united Europe is such a great idea why has the Euro failed so miserably?

If capitalism is such a good idea why has it failed to miserably? Shall we all become communists because of the financial crisis?

 

[theFijian]

If capitalism is such a good idea why has it failed to miserably? Shall we all become communists because of the financial crisis?

Did I say anything about capitalism? No I didn't and to bring it up is a complete red herring so you can just go ahead and answer the question; if a united Europe is such a great idea why has the Euro failed so miserably? Why is Germany in the position of having to prop up economies like those of Greece and Portugal?

 

[Paradoxum]

Did I say anything about capitalism? No I didn't and to bring it up is a complete red herring so you can just go ahead and answer the question; if a united Europe is such a great idea why has the Euro failed so miserably? Why is Germany in the position of having to prop up economies like those of Greece and Portugal?

I did answer your question, but with another question, but it appears I have to explain why that explains it.

In a similar way to your question I is capitalism has failed because of the financial crisis and various recessions throughout the years. Or has the US or the UK failed because it choose to be part of capitalism? The answer is clear no. The problem isn't with capitalism or the country's existence, it is with how capitalism is currently being run.

Similarly, the problem isn't with Europe integration but with the current way capitalism (and the euro) is working in the EU. Problems don't equal the failure of a concept.

I don't answer your question directly because I don't know enough about the economy to give details. But to give a short answer, I think the problem is that some countries didn't keep the rules and so everyone got screwed over. If everyone was force to keep the rules it wouldn't happen, so integration is actually safer.

 

[theFijian]

I did answer your question, but with another question, but it appears I have to explain why that explains it.
...
I don't answer your question directly because I don't know enough about the economy to give details.

You were closer the second time. The reason the Euro failed is really because of this; the Eurozone incorporated economies which were simply far too diverse for it to ever possibly succeed. The stronger northern european manufacturing lead economies like Germany (where astonishingly they make stuff people actually want to buy) were being governed by the same rules as the low production high service and public sector economies of the southern european nations.

But to give a short answer, I think the problem is that some countries didn't keep the rules and so everyone got screwed over. If everyone was force to keep the rules it wouldn't happen, so integration is actually safer.

No everyone got screwed over because of the collective notion across Europe that public money simply poofed into existance out of thin air, that we, and our government, could keep racking up debts without any day of reckoning. Consider that in the developing economies where they were borrowing money (and saving money!) to invest in their industry and in their own futures while we in the western economies were borrowing money simply to consume it, there was no enough of a balance between production and consumption. We were spending money we simply hadn't earned.

If our governments hadn't already been so indebted they might have been better placed to handle bailing out the banks which failed (which they should have broken up long before that anyway). And Capitalism does not equal greed, there is no inherent evil in Capitalism but there is inherent evil in human beings where we twist perfectly adequate economic and socio-political systems to suit our own selfish ends. The banks which failed did so mainly because of rampant greed. But then if capitalism is so inherently bad why did the Australian banks not fail, were they not also 'capitalist'? Well one reason is that they stayed away from the sub-prime market which did for the big american banks, another is that they did not over stretch themselves through over ambitious aquisitions. Our current modified system of capitalism is simply the least worst way of generating and distributing wealth. Socialist coutries like Spain are in a far far worse state than we are, where unemployment in the under 25 age bracket is almost at 50%.

Greater integration merely weds the likes of Germany and France even closer to the baket case economies like Greece, Portugal and Spain. Imagine you are Angela Merkel trying to tell german VW workers that they will have to work past their current retirement age and pay higher taxes so that they can pay for the pensions of Greek bus drivers who will still be retiring at 58 and not bothering to pay their taxes at all. The Euro is totemic of the failure of european integration, greater intergration will simply lead to greater disaster. By all means lets make trade easier, but lets not pretend that Europe is one big homogenous mass where rules that apply in Spain or Italy will automatically work in the Netherlands or Belgium. The 'rules' such as they were would never have saved the Euro in the long run.

Like you I used to think that a wider unified europe and economic integration would bring in some kind of utopia where we'd all be happier, more prosperous and live longer. It was great for a while where Ireland and Spain were getting all manner of handouts (the motorways in Spain are far better than ours yet it wasn't the Spanish who paid for them) and we all thought it would just continue like this for ever. Then reality bit.

 

[underheaven]

You were closer the second time. The reason the Euro failed is really because of this; the Eurozone incorporated economies which were simply far too diverse for it to ever possibly succeed. The stronger northern european manufacturing lead economies like Germany (where astonishingly they make stuff people actually want to buy) were being governed by the same rules as the low production high service and public sector economies of the southern european nations.



No everyone got screwed over because of the collective notion across Europe that public money simply poofed into existance out of thin air, that we, and our government, could keep racking up debts without any day of reckoning. Consider that in the developing economies where they were borrowing money (and saving money!) to invest in their industry and in their own futures while we in the western economies were borrowing money simply to consume it, there was no enough of a balance between production and consumption. We were spending money we simply hadn't earned.

If our governments hadn't already been so indebted they might have been better placed to handle bailing out the banks which failed (which they should have broken up long before that anyway). And Capitalism does not equal greed, there is no inherent evil in Capitalism but there is inherent evil in human beings where we twist perfectly adequate economic and socio-political systems to suit our own selfish ends. The banks which failed did so because of rampant greed, bu then if capitalism is so inherently bad why did the Australian banks not fail for example, were they not also 'capitalist'? Well one reason is that they stayed away from the sub-prime market which did for the big american banks, another is that they did not over stretch themselves through over ambitious aquisitions. Our current modified system of capitalism is simply the least worst way of generating and distributing wealth. Socialist coutries like Spain are in a far far worse state than we are, where unemployment in the under 25 age bracket is almost at 50%.

Greater integration merely weds the likes of Germany and Franc even closer to the baket case economies like Greece, Portugal and Spain. Imagine you are Angela Merkel trying to tell german VW workers that they will have to work past their current retirement age and pay higher taxes so that they can pay for the pensions of Greek bus drivers who will still be retiring at 58 and not bothering to pay their taxes at all. The Euro is totemic of the failure of european integration, greater intergration will simply lead to greater disaster. By all means lets make trade easier, but lets not pretend that Europe is one big homogenous mass where rules that apply in Spain or Italy will automatically work in the Netherlands or Belgium. The 'rules' such as they were would never have saved the Euro in the long run. Like you I used to think that a wider unified europe and economic integration would be

An excellent post .Clear and nett for a non economist ,who is interested in politics.

 

[GeminiMoon]

So come on guys, what do you honestly think the outcome of the 2014 referendum will be?

 

[lismore]

So come on guys, what do you honestly think the outcome of the 2014 referendum will be?

About thirty odd per cent for each of the three questions.

 

[Nabobalis]

About thirty odd per cent for each of the three questions.

Thus forcing a second referendum.

 

[lismore]

Thus forcing a second referendum.

In that case it would be a referendum to decide between independence and 'devolution max'.

 

[Dragons87]

This is completely off-topic, but does anyone else think "Devo Max" sounds like some cough syrup from Boots?

 

[lismore]

This is completely off-topic, but does anyone else think "Devo Max" sounds like some cough syrup from Boots?

It sounds a bit like the Irish Free State before they declared a Republic.

Of course Ireland voted for Independence in elections and Britain ignored them. Ireland declared Indepdence in 1916 and the British shot the signatories on the declaration of Independence, including a bedridden man.

So I think the SNP will rightly be wary of dealing with Westminster given their poor track record on democracy.

One positive note is that the Tory scallywags and their Liberal hirelings have absolutely no authority in Scotland. The Tories hold only one seat in Scotland and have no mandate for any say in any decisions here.

 

[Dragons87]

It sounds a bit like the Irish Free State before they declared a Republic.

Of course Ireland voted for Independence and Britain ignored them. Ireland declared Indepdence in 1916 and the British shot the signatories on the declaration of Independence, including a bedridden man.

So I think the SNP will rightly be wary of dealing with Westminster.

I fail to see how this relates to my post... =.=

Oh come. I can hardly foresee London sending troops to Edinburgh to quell the rebellious Scots (any more)! In 1916 women haven't even had the vote yet...

 

[lismore]

I fail to see how this relates to my post... =.=

Oh come. I can hardly foresee London sending troops to Edinburgh to quell the rebellious Scots (any more)! In 1916 women haven't even had the vote yet...

London ignored Ireland when they voted for independence, they might well ignore Scotland when they do.

The results of the 1918 general election in Ireland:

Sinn Fein 73 seats
Unionist 22 seats
Irish Parliamentary 6

Even the English establishment could not be dumb enough to think Ireland still wanted to stay in the Union after that result.

Sinn Fein was so anti-Union it would not even send it's MPs to the parliament in London.

 

[lismore]

I fail to see how this relates to my post... =.=

I don't know of any cough syrup called devolution..........

 

[Genersis]

Lucky we live in an age where people are a lot less xenophobic and are more likely to treat people of other lands LIKE people and have issues with killing them, eh Lismore?
Mainly thanks to the information age i'd guess.
Fear of the unknown and what not.

 

[Dragons87]

London ignored Ireland when they voted for independence, they might well ignore Scotland when they do.

The results of the 1918 general election in Ireland:

Sinn Fein 73 seats
Unionist 22 seats
Irish Parliamentary 6

Even the English establishment could not be dumb enough to think Ireland still wanted to stay in the Union after that result.

Sinn Fein was so anti-Union it would not even send it's MPs to the parliament in London.

Yes. But this was in 1916. A lot has changed since then.