When does legitimate appreciation of women's beauty turn into sinful lust? Is there a difference? You know, like when we look in people magazine's 'Most Beautiful People' issue, and we go, oh wow, she's gorgeous. That's not considered pornography, so where's the dividing line?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Appreciation=lust?
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dayhiker
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Generally people when thinking about lust go to Jesus' comment in Mat.5:28. I recommend people do a word study on the Greek word there for lust. Some highlights of what I found. The Greek word is used of good desires and bad. But Jesus and good angels are said to have lusted.
But the thing that was most interesting to me is that they Greek word is used by Paul when he talks about the commandment not to covet your neighbor's things, including his wife. Then think about how that relates to the topic Jesus is talking about: adultery.
But the thing that was most interesting to me is that they Greek word is used by Paul when he talks about the commandment not to covet your neighbor's things, including his wife. Then think about how that relates to the topic Jesus is talking about: adultery.
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The lexicons say that the word has a range of meanings, and cite cases where it's a morally neutral desire. But most commonly it means a desire to do something inappropriate. Not necessarily sexual, e.g. "do not covet" would use the same word. The consensus is that the meaning in Mat 5:28 is that "covet" kind of desire. TEV translates "look at a women to possess her", probably on the basis that the meaning is basically "covet." I'm inclined to agree that this is the best translation. The traditional "lust" seems to be based on a similar understanding. In English we don't normally (except maybe in jest) use lust for a morally neutral desire.
I'd say that like most of Jesus teaching the issue is intent. Admiring someone's beauty is surely not what Jesus was thinking of. (In fact that's not quite desire even by a broad definition.) Planning how to get them into bed with you surely is. In the middle it gets gray. But rather than trying to microanalyse your type of desire, it's probably better simply to make sure your feelings and intentions towards women are appropriate. Someone who respects women, and always want to treat them right is unlikely to be violating Mat 5:28, even if he occasionally wonders what it would like to be with his favorite movie star. At least I'd say that's true for young teens. (I teach Sunday School at that level, so I've thought about it from their perspective.) For a married person, there are more considerations. Not being married I'm probably not the best person to comment, but from what I read by married people, it's best to be more careful.
I'd say that like most of Jesus teaching the issue is intent. Admiring someone's beauty is surely not what Jesus was thinking of. (In fact that's not quite desire even by a broad definition.) Planning how to get them into bed with you surely is. In the middle it gets gray. But rather than trying to microanalyse your type of desire, it's probably better simply to make sure your feelings and intentions towards women are appropriate. Someone who respects women, and always want to treat them right is unlikely to be violating Mat 5:28, even if he occasionally wonders what it would like to be with his favorite movie star. At least I'd say that's true for young teens. (I teach Sunday School at that level, so I've thought about it from their perspective.) For a married person, there are more considerations. Not being married I'm probably not the best person to comment, but from what I read by married people, it's best to be more careful.
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juvenissun
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Don't struggle and don't try to justify it. You can not win.
So, either don't look,
or, admit that you are sinning.
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A
Afire
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Treat the beauty of women like looking at the sun. By all means appreciate their beauty and praise God for it, but if you try to possess such experiences, you cross the line.
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Afire
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If a person stares at the sun, they will do serious damage to their eyes.
In other words, if you would not ogle and openly lust after a woman face to face, but instead only risk the briefest glance at her shapely curves, and turn away with honour should she be caught in a compromising position, then you should do exactly the same thing with a woman's image.
In other words, if you would not ogle and openly lust after a woman face to face, but instead only risk the briefest glance at her shapely curves, and turn away with honour should she be caught in a compromising position, then you should do exactly the same thing with a woman's image.
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It becomes lust when you find yourself having fantasies about them. Even a thought about a body part that is sexual would be lust. It also depends on the persons control of the flesh not every one can do this well. As for me I enjoy looking at beautiful women they are a blessing. If your flesh is under control you can visit a nudist colony without lust. I have worked in them several times, I found it to be very disturbing to the point of being gross and repulsive. Our TV sets can be lust machines if you don't refrain from vulgar programs. We can lust and sin from our easy chair. Legal churches try to impose dress code to keep from temptation, most is silly no shorts on property no shoulders exposed no jeans. If your going to lust your flesh will find a way whatever they have on. Churches should teach control over flesh instead of control over dress.
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Romanseight2005
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Why does it have to be either or? Why can't church teach to dress modestly, and control your clothing, and control your thought life and practice self control by taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ?
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Because its not for the church to decide what is in someones heart. Not speaking of the body of christ but the local preacher who finds knee caps to be sin full. What do you consider modestly? Our church doesn't debate dress code and guess what haven't had any thongs in church yet. We could just cover women with parkas and make them ware veils. For your icon being one of the most profound in the bible you seem to comment just the opposite. I think you simply enjoy the contest of bantering.
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Romanseight2005
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Actually, I wasn't bantering at all, and for someone who thinks it's wrong to judge a person's heart, it's ironic that you just did that to me.
I actually agree with you that setting the specific parameters isn't the churches job, and that does get legalistic. What I was saying is that each of us is accountable for what we choose to wear, and each of us is accountable for our thoughts, so it really isn't a matter of which focus to have, because we are responsible for both.
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