Why Pray?

[Ken-1122]

Yes, God may know what we ask for prior to us asking but prayer does not serve the purpose of changing God's mind as God does not change His mind. We ought to be praying in accordance with God's will,

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?

that God's will is done on earth which only suggests that God's will is not totally completed on earth which in turn only further suggests that God does not control every single thing in our lives. For example, God does not control in the sense of coercion that people sin, so if I pray that He assist one to sin less or much less realize his sin, it may come about.

Doesn't that take away from God's ominiscience? If prior to your prayer God knew how much the person would sin; then that number changes as a result of your prayer, that would mean God was wrong initially right?

So, if it is God's will that one does not sin and I pray for such, then that is not me expecting to change God's will at all.

But if it were God's will for the person doesn't sin as much, that will be accomplished weather you pray or not! Right?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

The “way God knows” can be information sent back to him from him in the future through a wormhole. The result of a healing might be directly related to our decision to pray. God can “work it out” with the person being healed or not being healed, for the best given our decision.

But the decision has been already been made since the beginning of time, and it can never change; without taking away from God's ominscience.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

What I was trying to say is if you work on your relationship long enough then there will not be much you will want done outside of the model of prayer Christ taught.

Bu t as you know, a lot of people are praying outside the model of prayer Christ taught.


Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

God lives outside of time, meaning He's already made His decision. But it also means that He's already heard your prayer. You could even pray for things that have already happened but you haven't received news of yet.

Also, the point isn't to change God's mind. The most important part of The Lord's Prayer, I believe, is the part that says "Your will be done."

Why would someone pray that God does what he already has decided to do? As mentioned before, that's like noticing someone is about to eat a hamburger, than asking that person to eat the hamburger! Doesn't make any sense does it?

Ken

 

[elopez]

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?

You're under the assumption that we know what God is going to do; we don't. If we already had knowledge that God was going to accomplish what we are asking for, then I could see it as being a waste of time but again this is not the case. With your analogy you have already asked to eat the hamburger, but with God He would not ask us or reveal that He wants us to do it.

Doesn't that take away from God's omniscience? If prior to your prayer God knew how much the person would sin; then that number changes as a result of your prayer, that would mean God was wrong initially right?

Does what take away from God's omniscience? That His will is not done on earth, or that God does not force people to do things? It's unclear what you're getting at there. Our prayer does not conflict with God's will, again it is in accordance with God's will. If God knows how much a person will sin when we pray we are not praying that they sin less by 20 sins let's say, we are just praying that they sin less in general and that they realize they are indeed sinning.

But if it were God's will for the person doesn't sin as much, that will be accomplished weather you pray or not! Right?

Like I had said earlier understanding the nature of prayer has much to do with understanding the will of God, which can obviously only be to an extent. God's sovereign will is going to come about no matter what and there is nothing we can to do either change or divert it. However the revealed will of God implies there are things that God wants but doesn't necessarily get, like for example people stealing or murdering. God doesn't want those things to happen but He isn't going to force someone to obey Him, so it's possible for people to steal and murder. If we pray specifically in regards to the revealed will of God it could be effective.

 

[Girder of Loins]

God had a master plan. Jesus to die for our sins, one of Jesus' disciples betray Him, etc... But man's free will fills in the rest. So God directs His creation towards a certain goal, but who shows up is up to man. Judas was never pre-chosen specifically, but generically. His choices made Him betray Jesus. The same is true for people who are sick or dying. We pray for them in hopes that God will be able to save them without infringing upon His master plan. We decide a lot of the things in this world, we were given dominion. But God still has a spiritual plan, which can infringe upon man's dominion. So we pray that certain things happen in our dominion, but God's dominion supersedes our dominion. If something spiritual needs to happen that infringes upon man's dominion, the spiritual side takes importance.

 

[Ken-1122]

You're under the assumption that we know what God is going to do; we don't.

No you’re misunderstanding me. My analogy is about asking someone to do what they already intend on doing (your will be done) weather we know what the person is going to do or not, it is still a waste of time because they were going to do it anyway.

Does what take away from God's omniscience? That His will is not done on earth, or that God does not force people to do things? It's unclear what you're getting at there.

Okay; let me put it this way. Let’s say on Monday I am scheduled to commit l million acts of sin between now and the rest of my life and God knows this. If because of your prayers God changes my mind on Wednesday so I only commit ½ million acts of sin between then and the rest of my life, that would mean what God thought on Monday was wrong. So he might be omniscience now, but he was not on Monday.

Like I had said earlier understanding the nature of prayer has much to do with understanding the will of God, which can obviously only be to an extent. God's sovereign will is going to come about no matter what and there is nothing we can to do either change or divert it. However the revealed will of God implies there are things that God wants but doesn't necessarily get, like for example people stealing or murdering. God doesn't want those things to happen but He isn't going to force someone to obey Him, so it's possible for people to steal and murder. If we pray specifically in regards to the revealed will of God it could be effective.

Let’s say a person is dying of cancer. How are you going to know the revealed will of God concerning if this person is going to live or die? And if you don’t know the revealed will of God concerning this issue, does that mean you won’t pray for the person

K

 

[elopez]

No you’re misunderstanding me. My analogy is about asking someone to do what they already intend on doing (your will be done) weather we know what the person is going to do or not, it is still a waste of time because they were going to do it anyway.

And your analogy is still incomparable: God doesn't ask us to pray for anything. Also, if we are asking someone to do something we obviously know what the person is going to do.

Okay; let me put it this way. Let’s say on Monday I am scheduled to commit l million acts of sin between now and the rest of my life and God knows this. If because of your prayers God changes my mind on Wednesday so I only commit ½ million acts of sin between then and the rest of my life, that would mean what God thought on Monday was wrong. So he might be omniscience now, but he was not on Monday.

If I pray for you to sin less, it could be said that God also foreknows of that and will change your mind to do so, which means He wouldn't have foreknown you to sin 1 million times but only the 1/2 million times. Thus, God remains omniscience from now until forever.

Let’s say a person is dying of cancer. How are you going to know the revealed will of God concerning if this person is going to live or die? And if you don’t know the revealed will of God concerning this issue, does that mean you won’t pray for the person

Unless God personally reveals to me that that person is going to live or die, then I cannot know. This means that this specific case is probably not something God is going to reveal to me, but that doesn't mean I cannot pray for that person anyway.

 

[Ken-1122]

And your analogy is still incomparable: God doesn't ask us to pray for anything. Also, if we are asking someone to do something we obviously know what the person is going to do.

No! If you ask the person to do whatever it is that he wants to do, (thy will be done) you may not know what that person is going to do

If I pray for you to sin less, it could be said that God also foreknows of that and will change your mind to do so, which means He wouldn't have foreknown you to sin 1 million times but only the 1/2 million times. Thus, God remains omniscience from now until forever.

Yes which means you would have only sinned ½ million times anyway! This makes your request to sin less usless.

Unless God personally reveals to me that that person is going to live or die, then I cannot know. This means that this specific case is probably not something God is going to reveal to me, but that doesn't mean I cannot pray for that person anyway.

True! Go ahead and pray if you wish; just realize your prayers aren’t helping the person survive, and if the person does survive, don’t go around claiming he was healed as a result of your prayers or an intervention by God.

K

 

[elopez]

No! If you ask the person to do whatever it is that he wants to do, (thy will be done) you may not know what that person is going to do

Well according to your analogy we already are aware of what the person is going to do, which is eat the burger. You said if you see me about to eat a burger, which more than implies you already know I am going to eat it, does it not?

Yes which means you would have only sinned ½ million times anyway! This makes your request to sin less usless.

Yes but you're missing the point: we are not aware of how many times one will sin, thus praying for one to sin less is not useless. Again if we had the knowledge of how many times one would sin I could see prayer as meaning nothing, but that's just not the case.

True! Go ahead and pray if you wish; just realize your prayers aren’t helping the person survive, and if the person does survive, don’t go around claiming he was healed as a result of your prayers or an intervention by God.

If the person survives and I have prayed for that, I don't see how claiming God or my prayer couldn't be said to be a factor. Even though it may not have been, it's still possible.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well according to your analogy we already are aware of what the person is going to do, which is eat the burger. You said if you see me about to eat a burger, which more than implies you already know I am going to eat it, does it not?

My analogy is about asking a person to do what they want to do; that is useless. A request is only effective when you wish to change a person’s mind or actions.

Yes but you're missing the point: we are not aware of how many times one will sin, thus praying for one to sin less is not useless. Again if we had the knowledge of how many times one would sin I could see prayer as meaning nothing, but that's just not the case.

Knowing how much a person is going to sin is irrelevant! The point is praying for such a thing is not going to change anything

If the person survives and I have prayed for that, I don't see how claiming God or my prayer couldn't be said to be a factor. Even though it may not have been, it's still possible.

You can’t say God knows all in one breath then claim he is constantly changing his mind at the request of humans in another. You gotta pick one or the other; either everything has already been decided and God knows all, or God doesn’t know all because he will occasionally change things at the request of humans in a way he was unaware of before.

Ken

 

[elopez]

My analogy is about asking a person to do what they want to do; that is useless. A request is only effective when you wish to change a person’s mind or actions.

Your analogy also suggests that the one who is asking the other to do something is already aware they are going to do it, which again, is incomparable to God and prayer as we are not aware of what God is going to do. Your analogy is therefore false.

Knowing how much a person is going to sin is irrelevant! The point is praying for such a thing is not going to change anything

It's irrelevant because we cannot know, which means we don't know if it's going to change anything or not.

You can’t say God knows all in one breath then claim he is constantly changing his mind at the request of humans in another. You gotta pick one or the other; either everything has already been decided and God knows all, or God doesn’t know all because he will occasionally change things at the request of humans in a way he was unaware of before.

I have never claimed God changes His mind, in fact I have only claimed the opposite. God knowing all does not imply everything has been decided by God -- knowledge is not a casual relation as such.

 

[Ken-1122]

Your analogy also suggests that the one who is asking the other to do something is already aware they are going to do it, which again, is incomparable to God and prayer as we are not aware of what God is going to do. Your analogy is therefore false.

If you don't like the analogy, that's fine. My point is, to ask someone to do whatever it is that they have already decided to do (thy will be done) is a usless request because they were going to do it anyway.

It's irrelevant because we cannot know, which means we don't know if it's going to change anything or not.

If God changes his mind as a result of your request, that would mean there was a point in history (before you made the request) where God was unaware of an event thus he was not omniscient.

I have never claimed God changes His mind, in fact I have only claimed the opposite. God knowing all does not imply everything has been decided by God -- knowledge is not a casual relation as such.

If God knows all, then everything has already been decided; weather by God or someone else. Now if God does not know all, then your point stands.

K

 

[elopez]

If you don't like the analogy, that's fine. My point is, to ask someone to do whatever it is that they have already decided to do (thy will be done) is a usless request because they were going to do it anyway.

All I'm saying is that your analogy does not compare to the situation with God and prayer. What I'm saying is your point is invalid on account of your false analogy.

If God changes his mind as a result of your request, that would mean there was a point in history (before you made the request) where God was unaware of an event thus he was not omniscient.

God doesn't change His mind.

If God knows all, then everything has already been decided; weather by God or someone else. Now if God does not know all, then your point stands.

My point is that knowledge does not make us act how we act; we act how we want to based on our desires and needs. God influences some of our decisions in things related to salvation, but I believe the rest is up to us and God is merely aware of what we are going to do.

 

[98cwitr]

My analogy is about asking a person to do what they want to do; that is useless. A request is only effective when you wish to change a person’s mind or actions.

Knowing how much a person is going to sin is irrelevant! The point is praying for such a thing is not going to change anything
You can’t say God knows all in one breath then claim he is constantly changing his mind at the request of humans in another. You gotta pick one or the other; either everything has already been decided and God knows all, or God doesn’t know all because he will occasionally change things at the request of humans in a way he was unaware of before.

Ken

Hey Ken,

As an agnostic for 22 years and labelled as a heretical "calvinist" here on CF, I can completely identify with what you are asking and saying.

Might I direct your attention though to the Lord's Prayer...or more specifically how Christ tells us to pray:


This must be dissected:

Matthew 6:9-15

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven, Acknowledgement the Father
hallowed be your name, Show of respect and admiration.
10 your kingdom come, Show of yearning for Him and His Kingdom to be on Earth
your will be done, Which it will be!
on earth as it is in heaven. Wanting for Christ's return
11 Give us today our daily bread. Necessity
12 And forgive us our debts, Our sins or trespasses is meant by debts
as we also have forgiven our debtors. Oooo...big one here, we ask God to only forgive us as we are willing to forgive others!
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] James 1:13 says that God does not tempt!
but deliver us from the evil one.’ So save us from the Devil's snares

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


My comments in italics. So what's the point of this? Why even say these things? It's not for God to hear and then act...it's to change our heart. For if what we say is sincere here, then the Spirit has moved in us. It's a reminder for us to not be hypocrites. It is a message to ourselves, more so than it is to God...for this prayer outlines the Will of God for His elect.

 

[Ken-1122]

All I'm saying is that your analogy does not compare to the situation with God and prayer. What I'm saying is your point is invalid on account of your false analogy.

Forget about the analogy; what is it about my point that you say is invalid?

God doesn't change his mind

If God doesn't change his mind, why pray?

My point is that knowledge does not make us act how we act; we act how we want to based on our desires and needs. God influences some of our decisions in things related to salvation, but I believe the rest is up to us and God is merely aware of what we are going to do.

You are missing the point! I am saying if God knows everything, he knows how we are going to act in the future. If we act different than God thought we would act, weather it is because of our prayers, or a decision that God made, that would mean at one point God was not omniscient.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Hey Ken,

As an agnostic for 22 years and labelled as a heretical "calvinist" here on CF, I can completely identify with what you are asking and saying.

Might I direct your attention though to the Lord's Prayer...or more specifically how Christ tells us to pray:


This must be dissected:

Matthew 6:9-15

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven, Acknowledgement the Father
hallowed be your name, Show of respect and admiration.
10 your kingdom come, Show of yearning for Him and His Kingdom to be on Earth
your will be done, Which it will be!
on earth as it is in heaven. Wanting for Christ's return
11 Give us today our daily bread. Necessity
12 And forgive us our debts, Our sins or trespasses is meant by debts
as we also have forgiven our debtors. Oooo...big one here, we ask God to only forgive us as we are willing to forgive others!
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] James 1:13 says that God does not tempt!
but deliver us from the evil one.’ So save us from the Devil's snares

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


My comments in italics. So what's the point of this? Why even say these things? It's not for God to hear and then act...it's to change our heart. For if what we say is sincere here, then the Spirit has moved in us. It's a reminder for us to not be hypocrites. It is a message to ourselves, more so than it is to God...for this prayer outlines the Will of God for His elect.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread and several times since, I wasn't talking about the type of prayers like this one, I was refering to the type where people expect God to hear the prayers then act on behalf of the prayers.

Ken

 

[elopez]

Forget about the analogy; what is it about my point that you say is invalid?

Did you read anything in my previous post? To show how your point is invalid the analogy you gave is most essential. Again, your analogy is incomparable to God and prayer which is what makes your point invalid.

Tell me, are you aware of what the fallacy of a false analogy is?

If God doesn't change his mind, why pray?

Prayer isn't meant to serve the purpose of God changing His mind. Prayer is not meant to affect God but rather us.

You are missing the point! I am saying if God knows everything, he knows how we are going to act in the future. If we act different than God thought we would act, weather it is because of our prayers, or a decision that God made, that would mean at one point God was not omniscient.

The point is hardly being missed. I am saying that if our prayer affects another then God has foreknown of that. Nothing is different than what God foreknows.

 

[Ken-1122]

Did you read anything in my previous post? To show how your point is invalid the analogy you gave is most essential. Again, your analogy is incomparable to God and prayer which is what makes your point invalid.

Tell me, are you aware of what the fallacy of a false analogy is?

Why are you still bringing up that analogy? We are past that already! I asked a specific question; are you going to answer it?
In case you forgot, you objected to my claim that asking a person to do what they have already decided to do, (weather we know they are going to do it or not) is a waste of time. I would like to know why you object to my claim.

Prayer isn't meant to serve the purpose of God changing His mind. Prayer is not meant to affect God but rather us.

Asuming your God is ominscient; If a person has cancer, weather they live or not has already been decided. So why pray for them to live?


K

 

[elopez]

Why are you still bringing up that analogy? We are past that already! I asked a specific question; are you going to answer it? In case you forgot, you objected to my claim that asking a person to do what they have already decided to do, (weather we know they are going to do it or not) is a waste of time. I would like to know why you object to my claim.

Obviously you're not getting it. Your claim that you want me to answer to is apart of your analogy, so to answer your question your analogy is very relevant. I don't understand why you were so bent on sticking to your analogy but now for some reason you want to "move past it"? Is it because you realize the weakness of the analogy?

I objected to your analogy, not your claim. If you cannot follow thus far I am wasting my time.

Asuming your God is ominscient; If a person has cancer, weather they live or not has already been decided. So why pray for them to live?

Again, knowledge is not a casual relation, so that God is omniscient has nothing to do with whether the person is going to live or die.