Why Pray?

[Ken-1122]

Obviously you're not getting it. Your claim that you want me to answer to is apart of your analogy, so to answer your question your analogy is very relevant.

No it is not! You can totally ignore the analogy and simply answer the question. For some reason you are refusing to do that; is it because it is easier to attack the analogy than answer the question?

I don't understand why you were so bent on sticking to your analogy but now for some reason you want to "move past it"?

I was never "bent" on sticking to the analogy which is why I quickly abandoned it when I felt you were delibertly taking it out of context

Is it because you realize the weakness of the analogy?

It's because I wanted you to answer the question instead of trying to focus on the analogy.

I objected to your analogy, not your claim. If you cannot follow thus far I am wasting my time.

FINALLY!!! So are you admiting to ask someone who is doing as they please, to do as they please; is a waste of time?


Ken

PS first you claim my analogy is very revelant to the question I asked; now you appear able to separate the question from that analogy..... is your last statement contridicting your first?

 

[Hakan101]

Why are you still bringing up that analogy? We are past that already! I asked a specific question; are you going to answer it?
In case you forgot, you objected to my claim that asking a person to do what they have already decided to do, (weather we know they are going to do it or not) is a waste of time. I would like to know why you object to my claim.

How do you know their mind is already made up? How do you know they are not waiting for you to pray to them, that they may answer your call? If you just sit there saying nothing, then nothing's going to happen.

Assuming your God is ominscient; If a person has cancer, weather they live or not has already been decided. So why pray for them to live?

K

Because God responds to prayer. He does not respond to silence, or those who regard him as "a waste of time."

 

[elopez]

No it is not! You can totally ignore the analogy and simply answer the question. For some reason you are refusing to do that; is it because it is easier to attack the analogy than answer the question?

The analogy is apart of your question because you asked the question in regards to your analogy. As I am attacking the analogy the question is also attacked.

I was never "bent" on sticking to the analogy which is why I quickly abandoned it when I felt you were delibertly taking it out of context

How was I taking it out of context then? I was questioning the similarities or in this case lack of in the analogy and the real situation you were referring to.

It's because I wanted you to answer the question instead of trying to focus on the analogy.

I've already answered the question. Probably a couple pages ago. I said if we knew whether or not our prayer was going to happen or not, then it would be a waste of time. And then I said I do not believe this is the case, so no.

If we are simply asking someone to do something they are already going to do, yes, it's a waste of time. However that is not the same with God and prayer.

FINALLY!!! So are you admiting to ask someone who is doing as they please, to do as they please; is a waste of time?

Yes, but this is not comparable to God and prayer, so what is your point?

Ken

PS first you claim my analogy is very revelant to the question I asked; now you appear able to separate the question from that analogy..... is your last statement contridicting your first?

No. The question is related to your analogy. If I addressed your analogy I have addressed your question. Plus, I don't see how it would even be contradicting to say the question is relevant to your analogy and then just answer the question?

 

[Ken-1122]

How do you know their mind is already made up? How do you know they are not waiting for you to pray to them, that they may answer your call?

Because if God's mind isn’t made up, he is not omniscient. In order to be omniscient, he must know EVERYTHING including what he will do in the future.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

The analogy is apart of your question because you asked the question in regards to your analogy. As I am attacking the analogy the question is also attacked.

Okay I’m going to clear this up once and for all (hopefully). This is what I wrote in reference to the claim that you should pray “thy will be done” when praying to God.

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

Now the intention of that analogy was that praying “thy will be done” is asking God to do what he already intends on doing, which I believe is a waste of time.

Now the analogy was not worded perfectly, mine rarely are (I’m not perfect, go figure) But I didn’t expect you to spend 2 pages and 4 days picking apart an analogy and ignoring the question the analogy was in reference to.

Anyway…… I should have worded it so the person making the request was unaware if you were going to eat the hamburger or not; and ask you to only eat it if it was your intention, and refrain from eating it if it was not.

Now do you agree that asking a person to do whatever it is that they intend on doing, (AKA Thy will be done)is a waste of time?

Ken

 

[Hakan101]

Okay I’m going to clear this up once and for all (hopefully). This is what I wrote in reference to the claim that you should pray “thy will be done” when praying to God.

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

Now the intention of that analogy was that praying “thy will be done” is asking God to do what he already intends on doing, which I believe is a waste of time.

Now the analogy was not worded perfectly, mine rarely are (I’m not perfect, go figure) But I didn’t expect you to spend 2 pages and 4 days picking apart an analogy and ignoring the question the analogy was in reference to.

Anyway…… I should have worded it so the person making the request was unaware if you were going to eat the hamburger or not; and ask you to only eat it if it was your intention, and refrain from eating it if it was not.

Now do you agree that asking a person to do whatever it is that they intend on doing, (AKA Thy will be done)is a waste of time?

Ken

Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. No, acknowledging and submitting to God's will is not a waste of time. For instance, God is going to fulfill his plan on Earth whether people agree with him or not. It's going to be done, because he's made up his mind. Now, with that knowledge in mind, would you say it's a waste of time for a person to pray, "Father, you are Lord over all. Let your will be done, not my own."

This is not a useless act. Here a man is submitting to God, and honoring Him, which is what God wants us to do. God works through men to do his good, pleasing and perfect will. It does not glorify him when Christians sit around saying "Okay God you're in control, you've already made up your mind, I'm just gonna go off and do my own thing and not even bother praying to you because it would be a waste of time." That is not what a relationship with God is.

 

[elopez]

Okay I’m going to clear this up once and for all (hopefully). This is what I wrote in reference to the claim that you should pray “thy will be done” when praying to God.

I know what you wrote. I've responded to what you wrote and yet here we are right back at the beginning.

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

Now the intention of that analogy was that praying “thy will be done” is asking God to do what he already intends on doing, which I believe is a waste of time.

Again, if praying they will be done in regards to God means we ask Him what He already intends to do, we do not know what God is going to do and what He isn't going to do. We are not aware of what God is going to do. So, it's not a waste of time. One last time, your analogy is incomparable to God and prayer thus your question is invalid.

Now the analogy was not worded perfectly, mine rarely are (I’m not perfect, go figure) But I didn’t expect you to spend 2 pages and 4 days picking apart an analogy and ignoring the question the analogy was in reference to.

Anyway…… I should have worded it so the person making the request was unaware if you were going to eat the hamburger or not; and ask you to only eat it if it was your intention, and refrain from eating it if it was not.

The way the analogy was worded was not the issue. It's the false comparisons that was the issue. The thing about analogies is sometimes they aren't always comparable, and when they aren't it's on account of there being relevant dissimilarities between the analogy and the actual scenario. It's only taking this long because you refuse to see that I've answered your question and are not really at all responding to it.

Ignoring the question? I've already answered the question, it is you who is now ignoring the response. If we are with someone who is eating a hamburger it pretty much seems like no matter what we know they are going to get a hamburger. They would order it and we would be aware of what they ordered.

Now do you agree that asking a person to do whatever it is that they intend on doing, (AKA Thy will be done)is a waste of time?

I have already answered this. I'll state it one last time. Yes, asking a person to do what they are already going to do is a waste of time, but it is not the same with God so it doesn't seem like a waste of time.

 

[Ken-1122]

The way the analogy was worded was not the issue. It's the false comparisons that was the issue.

Really! So how is "eat the hamburger if it is your will" different than "heal this man of cancer if it is you will" in the context that you are asking someone to do what they have already decided to do?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Okay, I think I understand what you mean now. No, acknowledging and submitting to God's will is not a waste of time. For instance, God is going to fulfill his plan on Earth whether people agree with him or not. It's going to be done, because he's made up his mind. Now, with that knowledge in mind, would you say it's a waste of time for a person to pray, "Father, you are Lord over all. Let your will be done, not my own."

I'm not talking about that kind of prayer; I'm talking about the type when they ask God to do this or do that; heal this person of cancer, cure that person's sickness, etc. then they claim they were cured as a result of intervention by God.
When a person attempts to communicate with God or thank God for what he has done, etc. that is effective if nothing more than it makes the person praying feel better.

Ken

 

[Hakan101]

I'm not talking about that kind of prayer; I'm talking about the type when they ask God to do this or do that; heal this person of cancer, cure that person's sickness, etc. then they claim they were cured as a result of intervention by God.
When a person attempts to communicate with God or thank God for what he has done, etc. that is effective if nothing more than it makes the person praying feel better.

Ken

Yes, you were talking about that kind of prayer.

Why would someone pray that God do what he has already decided to do? Isn't that a waste of time? If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is usless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

Those were your words, and I addressed them appropriately in my previous post.

Even for what you're saying right now, my previous post still applies. But you didn't address it. Here it is again.

This is not a useless act. Here a man is submitting to God, and honoring Him, which is what God wants us to do. God works through men to do his good, pleasing and perfect will. It does not glorify him when Christians sit around saying "Okay God you're in control, you've already made up your mind, I'm just gonna go off and do my own thing and not even bother praying to you because it would be a waste of time." That is not what a relationship with God is.

 

[elopez]

Really! So how is "eat the hamburger if it is your will" different than "heal this man of cancer if it is you will" in the context that you are asking someone to do what they have already decided to do?

Wow. This is exactly what I have been explaining...

There is no reason for me repeating myself after all this time. Go back and read my answer and if you cannot find it then I'll tell you yet again.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, you were talking about that kind of prayer.



Those were your words, and I addressed them appropriately in my previous post.

Even for what you're saying right now, my previous post still applies. But you didn't address it. Here it is again.

You are talking about the type of prayers when one submits to God and honor God. That is different than asking God to heal a person who is sick or dying of cancer. I am not talking about the type of prayer when one only honor's God, submit to God, thank's God, communicates to God, or any thing else other than asking God for a specific thing to get done.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Wow. This is exactly what I have been explaining...

There is no reason for me repeating myself after all this time. Go back and read my answer and if you cannot find it then I'll tell you yet again.

I disagree! All I can see you did was repeatly pick apart an analogy. If you did answer my question I can't find where you answered it, so if you would be so kind as to answer it one more time it would be greatly appreciated

Ken

 

[Hakan101]

You are talking about the type of prayers when one submits to God and honor God. That is different than asking God to heal a person who is sick or dying of cancer. I am not talking about the type of prayer when one only honor's God, submit to God, thank's God, communicates to God, or any thing else other than asking God for a specific thing to get done.

Ken

I fail to see the difference. Any type of prayer is submission and honoring God, even "asking him for a specific thing to get done." It is acknowledging that one needs God for what they desire, asking him to see it through, and honoring his will to be done over their own. There is no relationship when a man ignores God in all his endeavors.

So again, where is the waste of time here?

 

[elopez]

I disagree! All I can see you did was repeatly pick apart an analogy. If you did answer my question I can't find where you answered it, so if you would be so kind as to answer it one more time it would be greatly appreciated

I'll try try to explain this again then. Your analogy was this: "If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is useless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

An analogy does have both similarities and dissimilarities, but depending on the relevancy as to each, an analogy can be either sound or weak. If there are relevant similarities the analogy is sound, and if there are relevant dissimilarities then the analogy is weak and thus invalid.

You are comparing us to the one who is asking the other, compared to God, to eat the cheeseburger, which is comparable to our prayer. You then ask if our request is useless, which I have answered no, as this is not comparable to God and prayer.

I have been saying for the longest now that your analogy is incomparable to God, us, and prayer as we do not know what God is going to do, whereas in your analogy it is assumed we would, since we know that the one is going to eat the burger.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'll try try to explain this again then. Your analogy was this: "If I see you are about to eat a hamburger, so I ask you to please eat that hamburger, my request is useless right? So why would someone do that with God?"

An analogy does have both similarities and dissimilarities, but depending on the relevancy as to each, an analogy can be either sound or weak. If there are relevant similarities the analogy is sound, and if there are relevant dissimilarities then the analogy is weak and thus invalid.

You are comparing us to the one who is asking the other, compared to God, to eat the cheeseburger, which is comparable to our prayer. You then ask if our request is useless, which I have answered no, as this is not comparable to God and prayer.

I have been saying for the longest now that your analogy is incomparable to God, us, and prayer as we do not know what God is going to do, whereas in your analogy it is assumed we would, since we know that the one is going to eat the burger.

for the ump-teenth time; PLEASE IGNORE THE ANALOGY!!!! I have already told you the analogy had it's flaws! Why are you still bringing it up? The analogy may be flawed but the question stands on it's own. Can you answer the question please?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I fail to see the difference. Any type of prayer is submission and honoring God, even "asking him for a specific thing to get done." It is acknowledging that one needs God for what they desire, asking him to see it through, and honoring his will to be done over their own. There is no relationship when a man ignores God in all his endeavors.

So again, where is the waste of time here?

I understand in the process of the type of prayer I was talking about, you may communicate with your God, submit to him etc. But the waste of time is when you ask him to do something like cure someone's illness, pray for a safe trip home, etc. asking for something that has already been decided is a waste of time.

Ken

 

[Hakan101]

I understand in the process of the type of prayer I was talking about, you may communicate with your God, submit to him etc. But the waste of time is when you ask him to do something like cure someone's illness, pray for a safe trip home, etc. asking for something that has already been decided is a waste of time.

Ken

I see how you as an Atheist would consider it a waste of time. But in the context of our faith, it certainly isn't a waste at all. These are the things God tells us to do, to ask him for blessings. He is eager to oblige. Surely you have heard "Ask, and you shall receive." This suggests you will not receive if you don't ask. There is importance on the asking from us, to God. He wants our participation.

 

[Ken-1122]

I see how you as an Atheist would consider it a waste of time. But in the context of our faith, it certainly isn't a waste at all. These are the things God tells us to do, to ask him for blessings. He is eager to oblige. Surely you have heard "Ask, and you shall receive." This suggests you will not receive if you don't ask. There is importance on the asking from us, to God. He wants our participation.

I understand what you are saying. If the verse "Ask and you shall recieve" was mentioned in the context of praying for things, I would say it contridicts the part of the bible that claims God is omniscient.
As an atheist I am convinced the bible is full of contridictions; and this is just one of many. I am sure yourself as a christian would see things differently, anyway thanks for your imput

Ken

 

[Hakan101]

I understand what you are saying. If the verse "Ask and you shall recieve" was mentioned in the context of praying for things, I would say it contridicts the part of the bible that claims God is omniscient.
As an atheist I am convinced the bible is full of contridictions; and this is just one of many. I am sure yourself as a christian would see things differently, anyway thanks for your imput

Ken

It doesn't contradict God's omniscience at all. I think I said this from the start, but the purpose of prayer isn't to tell God anything new. God knows our needs, yet he tells us to ask him for them. Again, this is a relationship with the Lord, not a one-sided deal.