Christian Only

[Avodat]

I am a Messianic Believer, I do not use the word Gentile when I talk about myself because I have left the Gentile ways (trying too).There is probably still somethings I do that are still Gentile to a Jew if he were to visit me.
There are Christians that call themselves Messianic that do not keep kosher or Sabbath, but they believe that the Torah is valid but it still does not apply to them. Which for me is confusing they aren't Messianic they are still Christians.
To me a Messianic is someone who believes:
1. Yeshua is the Son of God (which Christians believe)
2. The Torah is Valid (something they don't believe)
3. We are encouraged to Keep Torah (something they think is impossible)
I don't believe God expects those of us from a Gentile background to walk in His Torah the instant we are saved. But we are to Listen and Obey. And if we have questions about a certain commandment we need to ask someone who knows about it.

de·nom·i·na·tion   [dih-nom-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect: the Lutheran denomination.

We are still to small of a group to be a denomination as quoted from dictionary(dot)com. We are still a "sect".

There are Baptists and Nazarenes in every city, town and county in the USA. However, there is not a Messianic congregation in all cities and towns "yet". We can only hope that one day we will be a Denomination and it is not a bad thing, words are words. There are different 'denominations' of Jews. Reform, Conservative, Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox.

Okay, I think I am done rambling.

Saying that Messianics will be a denomination is like saying that Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc are each a denomination. It cannot become a denomination of Christianity, nor of Judaism because it contains elements that neither would accept - mutual exclusivity reigns hard and fast!

Messianic is not a denomination, but it has groups within it that may become denominations. 'Messianic Judaism' is a misnomer which causes considerable confusion.

 

[Roni999]

Your a Christian

Thanks Tishri1,
I know I am a Christian but I feel that maybe they don't think I am. but what they think can prohibit me from posting in those "Christian Only" forums. So the topic continues.
I know what they think should not matter because what matters is what God thinks about my walk with Him.
Oh and LOVE your Sig!! "I am not talking about Twitter, I literally want you to follow me". Just to good!!

 

[AngeliaBell]

As for the dispensationalist problem mentioned, I have found that many Messianics are very influenced by dispensationalism, so that in itself is not really a core difference between the other Christians and the Messianics here. Like replacement theology, its really a minority thing that Christians on all sides of the spectrum will struggle with within the community at large.

Eh, I am going to agree and disagree with your statement. I absolutely agree that dispensationalism influences Messianics because of their church history. It is a very difficult concept to get shod of since it colors everything.

But in straight Messianic theory, dispensationalism doesn't exist. (I'm speaking of a dispensation of law and a dispensation of grace dividing the "new" and "old" "testaments")

So Messianics shouldn't be influenced by dispensationalism but it takes a while to locate all the places it is hiding.

But more often than not, when I am discussing theology with a Christian, it doesn't take long before we come to the root of why we cannot agree on so many theological differences and that root is dispensationalism.

 

[xDenax]

I am a Messianic Believer, I do not use the word Gentile when I talk about myself because I have left the Gentile ways (trying too).There is probably still somethings I do that are still Gentile to a Jew if he were to visit me.

I think you misunderstand the term "gentile".

 

[pilgrim13]

Saying that Messianics will be a denomination is like saying that Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc are each a denomination. It cannot become a denomination of Christianity, nor of Judaism because it contains elements that neither would accept - mutual exclusivity reigns hard and fast!

Messianic is not a denomination, but it has groups within it that may become denominations. 'Messianic Judaism' is a misnomer which causes considerable confusion.

If you could state how Messianic Judaism and Christianity are mutually exclusive, I would appreciate it.

 

[ContraMundum]

Eh, I am going to agree and disagree with your statement. I absolutely agree that dispensationalism influences Messianics because of their church history. It is a very difficult concept to get shod of since it colors everything.

OK.

But in straight Messianic theory, dispensationalism doesn't exist. (I'm speaking of a dispensation of law and a dispensation of grace dividing the "new" and "old" "testaments")

So Messianics shouldn't be influenced by dispensationalism but it takes a while to locate all the places it is hiding.

But more often than not, when I am discussing theology with a Christian, it doesn't take long before we come to the root of why we cannot agree on so many theological differences and that root is dispensationalism.

Proper Dispensationalism goes further than the imaginary division between so-called dispensations of grace and law, but has far more immediate influence in eschatology, in which Messianics are clearly on the Dispensational side most of the time.

 

[Roni999]

That is where the problem begins. Christ or Messiah? The Hebrew Messiah who came to lead us back to the father and Torah, or the Greek Christ who did away with the law so we could eat ham and worship like pagans?

Pat you have a point, from a Jewish standpoint and I am going to say if a Jew was to enter the Church any one would do, they would see the "Greek Christ".
Now the Church would not say that their "Christ" was Greek but by their teachings He might as well be a Greek. The Church misses the point of being set apart from the world.

 

[yedida]

OK.



Proper Dispensationalism goes further than the imaginary division between so-called dispensations of grace and law, but has far more immediate influence in eschatology, in which Messianics are clearly on the Dispensational side most of the time.

Contra, do you mean the belief of rapture, 7 year trib., big bad conflicl, return of rapturees, millennium, another big bad conflict, final judgment, eternity? I used to believe that when I was in interdenominational church, not now. I haven't noticed too many MJs that believe this way, either.

 

[Roni999]

I think you misunderstand the term "gentile".

gen·tile   [jen-tahyl] Show IPA
adjective ( sometimes initial capital letter )
1.
of or pertaining to any people not Jewish.
2.
Christian, as distinguished from Jewish.
3.
Mormon Church . not Mormon.
4.
heathen or pagan.
5.
(of a linguistic expression) expressing nationality or local origins.

I know the term of Gentile. Pagan someone that is not Jewish. Now I don't know how the Mormons got into the definition Dictionary(dot) com wrote it. But A Gentile is someone that does NOT live according to God's Word. Aka Heathen or pagan.

 

[AngeliaBell]

I think you misunderstand the term "gentile".

The term throughout the Bible:
Gentile, when used to religiously identify people, means heathen. Gentile when used to identify nationality means everyone in the world.

Later, the term identified anyone who wasn't a Jew (which by the first century was both a religion and nationality.) And thus we have Jew and Gentile which is a manmade designation and separation. The term, as the Jews used it, meant holy and unholy. To become holy according to Jewish understanding and law, one must go through their defined process to gain that "title". It was through the wonderful teachings of Paul where he clarified the intent of the Torah that there is no reason to "become a Jew". Salvation is by faith, not by rituals.

Jews and Gentiles alike needed to be born again and grafted into the vine of Israel. So spiritually my nation is Israel, religiously I am not a heathen, but physically I am an American. I have absolutely no compulsion to refer to myself as a Gentile in the 21st Century.

 

[xDenax]

But A Gentile is someone that does NOT live according to God's Word. Aka Heathen or pagan.

That is not how the word is used. It really doesn't matter what you do, you are technically a Gentile. I don't use the word (I generally say Non-Jew) but you brought it up.

Were you born in Israel? Do you currently live in Israel? I ask because your profile lists Israel and the United States. It's a bit confusing.

 

[Roni999]

The term throughout the Bible:
Gentile, when used to religiously identify people, means heathen. Gentile when used to identify nationality means everyone in the world.

Later, the term identified anyone who wasn't a Jew (which by the first century was both a religion and nationality.) And thus we have Jew and Gentile which is a manmade designation and separation. The term, as the Jews used it, meant holy and unholy. To become holy according to Jewish understanding and law, one must go through their defined process to gain that "title". It was through the wonderful teachings of Paul where he clarified the intent of the Torah that there is no reason to "become a Jew". Salvation is by faith, not by rituals.

Jews and Gentiles alike needed to be born again and grafted into the vine of Israel. So spiritually my nation is Israel, religiously I am not a heathen, but physically I am an American. I have absolutely no compulsion to refer to myself as a Gentile in the 21st Century.

Yeah!

 

[ContraMundum]

Pat you have a point, from a Jewish standpoint and I am going to say if a Jew was to enter the Church any one would do, they would see the "Greek Christ".
Now the Church would not say that their "Christ" was Greek but by their teachings He might as well be a Greek. The Church misses the point of being set apart from the world.

I don't think that is really an issue in the real world. I know it preaches good to some ears but as a Jew who entered the Church I never saw a Greek Jesus, and according to your stereotype, I belong to a so-called "Greek" Church. After entering the Church, I then studied in two seminaries, and still never met or was taught a Greek Jesus. I have served now as pastor for over 10 years, and still have not met this Greek Jesus in the church which according to this prejudice is a so-called "Greek mindset" Church.

The only place I hear of the Greek Jesus is in poorly written books or teachings by so-called Hebrew roots teachers, who denigrate the Jewish Yeshua into a mere Law-follower with a bit of subordinate divinity for the atonement and nothing more. They invented the notion of a Greek Jesus to raise up their own faulty ideas of Yeshua.

The fact is that over-emphasis of the Jewishness of Yeshua is an overemphasis of merely one aspect of His humanity. He is in essence not merely a Jew, but in essence is God incarnate. The Jewishness of His flesh is not nearly as important as is the fact that He became flesh. The Messiah had to be Jewish, but also God. Hence, to reduce Him to the "Jewish Yeshua" is just as much of an error as to reduce Him to a merely human Messiah. Christology is about getting the balance right. Open the NT and you will not find this so-called Greek Jesus, and even the Greek Orthodox Church teaches a very Jewish Jesus. It's all in the head of a few mis-informed and prejudicial teachers.

 

[Roni999]

Were you born in Israel? Do you currently live in Israel? I ask because your profile lists Israel and the United States. It's a bit confusing.

I was trying to get the Israel flag glad you caught that I will fix it. I am American wish I lived in Israel, would be easier to support the people and live a more Biblical Lifestyle, I would think.

 

[xDenax]

The term, as the Jews used it, meant holy and unholy. To become holy according to Jewish understanding and law, one must go through their defined process to gain that "title".

I have never in my life heard such a thing?

I have absolutely no compulsion to refer to myself as a Gentile in the 21st Century.

And that's fine. But I see no reason to act like it's a dirty word or that Jews go around thinking "my goodness, those people do such Gentile things".

Gentile, Non-Jew, no big deal.

 

[xDenax]

I was trying to get the Israel flag glad you caught that I will fix it. I am American wish I lived in Israel, would be easier to support the people and live a more Biblical Lifestyle, I would think.

Some say it's difficult to be a Christian (even Messianic) in Israel. I don't know since I'm neither Messianic nor living in Israel.

 

[ContraMundum]

The term throughout the Bible:
Gentile, when used to religiously identify people, means heathen. Gentile when used to identify nationality means everyone in the world.

Umm....no. Not "throughout the Bible". We meet many righteous God-fearing Gentiles in the Bible.

 

[Roni999]

I don't think that is really an issue in the real world. I know it preaches good to some ears but as a Jew who entered the Church I never saw a Greek Jesus, and according to your stereotype, I belong to a so-called "Greek" Church. After entering the Church, I then studied in two seminaries, and still never met or was taught a Greek Jesus. I have served now as pastor for over 10 years, and still have not met this Greek Jesus in the church which according to this prejudice is a so-called "Greek mindset" Church.

The only place I hear of the Greek Jesus is in poorly written books or teachings by so-called Hebrew roots teachers, who denigrate the Jewish Yeshua into a mere Law-follower with a bit of subordinate divinity for the atonement and nothing more. They invented the notion of a Greek Jesus to raise up their own faulty ideas of Yeshua.

The fact is that over-emphasis of the Jewishness of Yeshua is an overemphasis of merely one aspect of His humanity. He is in essence not merely a Jew, but in essence is God incarnate. The Jewishness of His flesh is not nearly as important as is the fact that He became flesh. The Messiah had to be Jewish, but also God. Hence, to reduce Him to the "Jewish Yeshua" is just as much of an error as to reduce Him to a merely human Messiah. Christology is about getting the balance right. Open the NT and you will not find this so-called Greek Jesus, and even the Greek Orthodox Church teaches a very Jewish Jesus. It's all in the head of a few mis-informed and prejudicial teachers.

I am going to answer you but I need time to think about how to answer and I am going to start it up in a new thread. The OP has been lost of late due to the rabbit trails we start because of a sentence or two.

 

[Avodat]

If you could state how Messianic Judaism and Christianity are mutually exclusive, I would appreciate it.

Go to the sticky list at the top of the page and look in the book list - there you will find plenty of books about Messianic beliefs and theology. David Stern, Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Dan Coln-Sherbock, Richard Harvey, Stan Telchin etc etc - all shed light on this matter in varying degrees.

 

[anisavta]

I am American wish I lived in Israel, would be easier to support the people and live a more Biblical Lifestyle, I would think.

It's not as glamorous as you might think. You can support Israel just as easy from America - in fact better. Buy Israeli products either online or at your local stores. Living in Israel is expensive and hard. How do you mean "living a Biblical lifestyle?"