Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

[Whisper of Hope]

I'm not right because I(Zaac) doesn't have a word. GOD is right and your teaching is in direct opposition to what the word of God says. And thus, for sure it is disregarded because God doesn't give discernment that authors confusion about His truth. And God doesn't set folks out to teach the opposite of the truth that He has given.

The teaching that you are doing is in direct opposition of God's word and SHOULD be disregarded by all.

Like I said before, when folks start trying to rewrite Scripture about hell, it's generally because they are scared that someone they love died and went to hell. And to assuage THEIR feelings, they have to try to establish their own idea of what hell is.

And it just doesn't work that way. The truth is what GOD says it is. And GOD has established that the punishment received in separation from Him IS eternal.



Do you know that I read the Bible in ENGLISH and that picking and choosing one word to translate back to the original language in order to make God's word say aomething else makes for errant theology?

Tariki, you're a Buddhist. And I can tell you from experience that most Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, etc, find it astonishing that I preach God's word as "God says it, end of story". They want waffle room to open the door for the possibility of something else.

There is nothing else. It's God's way or eternal punishment. The world doesn't have to like it. The world doesn't have to agree with it. But God is God ALONE and man gets no say so.

So Timothew and 6,999,999,998 billion people can assert otherwise and I'm STILL gonna preach the absolute truth of God's word as given by HIM.

You feel free to conclude what you wish. Your concluding has led you to not trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So at this point, your conclusions simply don't carry much weight when it comes to the things of Christ. And that's not meant to be offensive. It is again, simply the way things are.

Amen and Amen to what you have said in your posts, Zaac.

Keep preaching the Word of G-d with no compromise to its truth.

 

[Zaac]

God says (through the apostle Paul) that the wages of sin is death. But there are a lot of folks who teach based on what they "think, feel, or believe" or based on their religious indoctrination, that this is not true. They falsely teach that the wages of sin is something other than death.

ANd here you are again attempting to teach on death while still not having a grasp of what the Bible shows death to be.

They teach that the wages of sin is to be tormented alive in hell forever, directly contradicting the scriptures which say that the wages of sin is death.

This is the result of YOUR confusion, not the teachers. The wages of sin IS death. But in death, there is eternal punishment and that in no way contradicts what Scripture says.

They jump through hoops trying to say that Romans 6:23 doesn't really mean that the wages of sin is death. Then they claim that anyone who quotes the scripture is just what they "think, feel, or believe."

It apparently is what YOU "think , feel, believe" if you say there is not eternal punishment in death for those who have rejected Christ.

 

[Tariki]

Tariki, you're a Buddhist. And I can tell you from experience that most Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, etc, find it astonishing that I preach God's word as "God says it, end of story". They want waffle room to open the door for the possibility of something else.

There is nothing else. It's God's way or eternal punishment. The world doesn't have to like it. The world doesn't have to agree with it. But God is God ALONE and man gets no say so.

So Timothew and 6,999,999,998 billion people can assert otherwise and I'm STILL gonna preach the absolute truth of God's word as given by HIM.



You feel free to conclude what you wish. Your concluding has led you to not trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So at this point, your conclusions simply don't carry much weight when it comes to the things of Christ. And that's not meant to be offensive. It is again, simply the way things are.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Timothew]

ANd here you are again attempting to teach on death while still not having a grasp of what the Bible shows death to be.



This is the result of YOUR confusion, not the teachers. The wages of sin IS death. But in death, there is eternal punishment and that in no way contradicts what Scripture says.



It apparently is what YOU "think , feel, believe" if you say there is not eternal punishment in death for those who have rejected Christ.

Well, the bible says death, and you say otherwise.

I'll stick with what the bible says instead of what you say. Yes, Death is an eternal punishment. It is just not eternal living conscious punishment.
That's just what you think feel and believe due to your religious indoctrination.

I don't expect that you will ever agree with me, but I noticed that you are never able to refute what I say. That just looks like stubbornness to me.

 

[Timothew]

I'm not right because I(Zaac) doesn't have a word. GOD is right and your teaching is in direct opposition to what the word of God says. And thus, for sure it is disregarded because God doesn't give discernment that authors confusion about His truth. And God doesn't set folks out to teach the opposite of the truth that He has given.

The teaching that you are doing is in direct opposition of God's word and SHOULD be disregarded by all.

Like I said before, when folks start trying to rewrite Scripture about hell, it's generally because they are scared that someone they love died and went to hell. And to assuage THEIR feelings, they have to try to establish their own idea of what hell is.

And it just doesn't work that way. The truth is what GOD says it is. And GOD has established that the punishment received in separation from Him IS eternal.



Do you know that I read the Bible in ENGLISH and that picking and choosing one word to translate back to the original language in order to make God's word say aomething else makes for errant theology?

Do you know that I read the bible everyday, and I read the NT everyday in the original greek language?

What I am saying is in no way contradicting the word of God. In fact I quote the word of God and believe what it says. If you say that the wages of sin is not death, then you are the one contradicting the word of God based on your traditions.

Believing traditions over the scriptures makes for errant theology.

 

[Zaac]

Well, the bible says death, and you say otherwise.

The Bible also says 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. Genesis 3:4. You're confused about Biblical death and dying. And you're confused about the wages of sin and what takes place after the wages of sin.

So I'll just suggest again that folks stop attempting to teach on the subject if they are not gonna teach in alignment with what God's word says.

I know what some WANT it to say. But it says what it says.

I'll stick with what the bible says instead of what you say. Yes, Death is an eternal punishment.

The confusion is on display. Death is the wages of sin. The eternal punishment takes place in death( separation from God). SCripture tells what some of the ternal punishment is.

A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13).

A place of torments - "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

A place of Sorrows - "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

A place of everlasting destruction - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).

A place where men are tormented with fire and brimstone - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).


A place where fire is not quenched - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).


A bottomless pit - "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).


A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

It is ultimately a lake of fire - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

A place of hopeless of unsatisfied desires - "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24).

It is just not eternal living conscious punishment.

Again, no one has to think so if it makes them feel better about that loved one who may have died without Christ. But the eternal punishment for those who die without Christ is what HE says it is. Not what folks hope it to be.

That's just what you think feel and believe due to your religious indoctrination.

Remind me to give praise to God for His Holy Spirit and the indoctrinating of me to recognize God's truth and that which is against His truth.

I don't expect that you will ever agree with me, but I noticed that you are never able to refute what I say. That just looks like stubbornness to me.

You're a sinful man. I'm not called to be pleasing to you. As a preacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I am first and foremost called to be pleasing to HIM.

And I don't have to refute what you say. God's word does a right dandy job of that.

But this does give me cause to point out James 3:14-16 again. But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

 

[Zaac]

Do you know that I read the bible everyday, and I read the NT everyday in the original greek language?

Do you know that the words you are writing show up on the screen in English? As such, you could read them everyday in Swahili and it wouldn't mean a hill of beans if you're discussing it in English.

What I am saying is in no way contradicting the word of God.

Sure it is. You may need to put down the Greek New testament and the Hebrew Stuttgartensia and focus on a nice English translation because God's english translation is saying one thing and your English is contradicting what His says.

In fact I quote the word of God and believe what it says. If you say that the wages of sin is not death, then you are the one contradicting the word of God based on your traditions.

What are you talking about? Who said the wages of sin was not death? You're just confused about the wages of sin(death) and what eternal punishment takes place within death( separation from God).

Believing traditions over the scriptures makes for errant theology.

I'm not Catholic. Don't mistake my accepting what God's word says over man's "this is what I want God's word to say" as tradition.

 

[Timothew]

The Bible also says 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. Genesis 3:4. You're confused about Biblical death and dying. And you're confused about the wages of sin and what takes place after the wages of sin.

The Serpent said "You will not certainly die", that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying, that unless a person receives eternal life from Christ, they die in their sins. The wages of sin is death, but you say, No they will not certainly die, they will live forever in hell in torment. So the serpent said that "you will certainly not die," and coincidentally that is exactly what you say. Yet you say that what I'm saying is not in alignment with what God says. Remember that God said to Adam that if he sinned, he would die. That's what I say. That's what Paul says. The wages of sin is death. But not you. Your word is that the wages of sin is not death. So you agree with Satan, the serpent and you disagree with God's Word, and have the nerve to say (without proof) that I disagree with God's Word.
Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. You quote this, and quote the teaching of the serpent. Perhaps you should take this scripture to heart, your "wisdom" does not come down from heaven.

 

[Zaac]

Cymbals and beating drums.

Scripture STILL says what God says it says. He's right and your want for there to not be eternal punishment is wrong.

 

[good brother]

The Serpent said "You will not certainly die", that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying, that unless a person receives eternal life from Christ, they die in their sins. The wages of sin is death, but you say, No they will not certainly die, they will live forever in hell in torment. So the serpent said that "you will certainly not die," and coincidentally that is exactly what you say. Yet you say that what I'm saying is not in alignment with what God says. Remember that God said to Adam that if he sinned, he would die. That's what I say. That's what Paul says. The wages of sin is death. But not you. Your word is that the wages of sin is not death. So you agree with Satan, the serpent and you disagree with God's Word, and have the nerve to say (without proof) that I disagree with God's Word.
Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. You quote this, and quote the teaching of the serpent. Perhaps you should take this scripture to heart, your "wisdom" does not come down from heaven.

Tim, Can I call you Tim? Did you read my post about death way back on page 17 of this thread? You didn't respond to it and that is why I will post it again for you now.

Originally Posted by Timothew

But it seems that all of this assumes that death is not really death. I don't think we should just assume that death is not death. If a huge guy with a machete says "I'm going to kill you," I don't assume that death isn't really death.

We need to remember that there is a huge difference between physical death" and "spiritual death". If I said that my career is dead, does that mean that it literally died- that I put it into a coffin- that I had a ceremony for it that ended at the graveyard with a guy playing Amazing Grace on the bag pipes- does it mean that? No. Does it mean that I can never take up that career again? Not at all, I certainly could do that job again.

Does that make any sense? That the word "death" can take on different meanings and not always be limited to "The stopping of one's heart and one's breath"?

Spiritual death is not the stopping of one's heart or one's breath but the stopping of having any communion with God. You see, even those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior still enjoy some of His blessings in this world. However, if they die (a physical death) without knowing Him as Savior will lead them to an eternal spiritual death that will cut them off from the blessings of God. The complete separation from God is the spiritual death that the Bible speaks of.



​

In addition to what I already said above, you do know that we are born twice yet we do not enter our mother's womb twice? The Bible is very clear about us being reborn to enter into Heaven. If we can realize that "birth" does not always mean passing through the loins of a woman, then perhaps "death" does not always mean the ceasing of one's heart and breath. Study what God says about "birth" and "death". You will find that the two do not have concrete definitions as the ones we like to assign to them. They have multiple meanings.

Think about some other words.

If I resided in England and "wanted to smoke a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" it would be understood that I wanted a cigarette. If I were to make that same request here in the USA (which I would not say.The Bible is against homosexuality, but it is a case of love the sinner- hate the sin), I would be arrested for a hate crime.

Think about it.

In Christ, GB

 

[Timothew]

Cymbals and beating drums.

Scripture STILL says what God says it says. He's right and your want for there to not be eternal punishment is wrong.

Scripture says what God says it says and your wish for there to be eternal conscious punishment is wrong. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. Hold your fingers in your ears and say LaLaLa I can't hear you all you want. Why don't you just go away if you don't want to hear?

 

[Timothew]

Tim, Can I call you Tim? Did you read my post about death way back on page 17 of this thread? You didn't respond to it and that is why I will post it again for you now.

Originally Posted by Timothew

We need to remember that there is a huge difference between physical death" and "spiritual death". If I said that my career is dead, does that mean that it literally died- that I put it into a coffin- that I had a ceremony for it that ended at the graveyard with a guy playing Amazing Grace on the bag pipes- does it mean that? No. Does it mean that I can never take up that career again? Not at all, I certainly could do that job again.

Does that make any sense? That the word "death" can take on different meanings and not always be limited to "The stopping of one's heart and one's breath"?

Spiritual death is not the stopping of one's heart or one's breath but the stopping of having any communion with God. You see, even those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior still enjoy some of His blessings in this world. However, if they die (a physical death) without knowing Him as Savior will lead them to an eternal spiritual death that will cut them off from the blessings of God. The complete separation from God is the spiritual death that the Bible speaks of.



​

In addition to what I already said above, you do know that we are born twice yet we do not enter our mother's womb twice? The Bible is very clear about us being reborn to enter into Heaven. If we can realize that "birth" does not always mean passing through the loins of a woman, then perhaps "death" does not always mean the ceasing of one's heart and breath. Study what God says about "birth" and "death". You will find that the two do not have concrete definitions as the ones we like to assign to them. They have multiple meanings.

Think about some other words.

If I resided in England and "wanted to smoke a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" it would be understood that I wanted a cigarette. If I were to make that same request here in the USA (which I would not say.The Bible is against homosexuality, but it is a case of love the sinner- hate the sin), I would be arrested for a hate crime.

Think about it.

In Christ, GB

Death may have different meanings in different contexts, but one thing death can't mean is living forever in torment. Living forever is the complete opposite of death. If the idea of hell had never been invented, you would never think to interpret "death" as "never dying".

 

[good brother]

Death may have different meanings in different contexts, but one thing death can't mean is living forever in torment. Living forever is the complete opposite of death. If the idea of hell had never been invented, you would never think to interpret "death" as "never dying".

Think about this:

Mark 9:42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[d]
​

If spiritual death is, as you say just plain death, why would Jesus issue this warning about leading children astray? Jesus says that if someone misleads children, it would be better if they were drwoned in the sea than to face hell. If hell is non existent and spiritual death is just death, Jesus's words are nothing but hot air- void of any danger at all.

Jesus says that if one's hand causes one to stumble that they should cut it off from them because it is better to go into heaven with one hand than go to hell with two. If spiritual death is just death, it really doesn't matter at all how many hands one takes to the death.

Jesus said its better to enter heaven and be a cripple than to enter hell able to run (good brother paraphrase). He also said it's better to enter into heaven blind than to go hell with 20/20 vision. He ends with saying that hell is a place where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched. If spiritual death just means death, then who cares how many worms feast upon a body after he/she dies? And, if spiritual death just means death, then why would Jesus talk about an unqunching and unquenchable fire? I mean, hey if one's dead- cremate baby, cremate! Who would care about a threat of being burned if one was dead already and in that society burning bodies wasn't some unheard of practice.

But back to that first paragraph of mine after the verse. What threat would it be to say that it would be better to be drowned for leading one of God's little ones astray than to face spiritual death for that crime if spiritual death just meant physical death? If that were the case Jesus just said, "It would be better if you died for leading a little one astray than if you died." That doesn't make sense. Spiritual death and physical death don't mean the same thing.

In Christ, GB

 

[Timothew]

Think about this:

Mark 9:42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’[d]
​

If spiritual death is, as you say just plain death, why would Jesus issue this warning about leading children astray? Jesus says that if someone misleads children, it would be better if they were drwoned in the sea than to face hell. If hell is non existent and spiritual death is just death, Jesus's words are nothing but hot air- void of any danger at all.

Jesus says that if one's hand causes one to stumble that they should cut it off from them because it is better to go into heaven with one hand than go to hell with two. If spiritual death is just death, it really doesn't matter at all how many hands one takes to the death.

Jesus said its better to enter heaven and be a cripple than to enter hell able to run (good brother paraphrase). He also said it's better to enter into heaven blind than to go hell with 20/20 vision. He ends with saying that hell is a place where the worm doesn't die and the fire is not quenched. If spiritual death just means death, then who cares how many worms feast upon a body after he/she dies? And, if spiritual death just means death, then why would Jesus talk about an unqunching and unquenchable fire? I mean, hey if one's dead- cremate baby, cremate! Who would care about a threat of being burned if one was dead already and in that society burning bodies wasn't some unheard of practice.

But back to that first paragraph of mine after the verse. What threat would it be to say that it would be better to be drowned for leading one of God's little ones astray than to face spiritual death for that crime if spiritual death just meant physical death? If that were the case Jesus just said, "It would be better if you died for leading a little one astray than if you died." That doesn't make sense. Spiritual death and physical death don't mean the same thing.

In Christ, GB

Even in this, look at the verses you quoted. You say "enter into heaven blind", but that's not what Jesus said. Because of what you believe, you substituted in the words that you expected to see. This is actually very common. Jesus didn't say enter into heaven blind or with one hand. He said "enter into LIFE", which actually supports what I've been saying.

I KNOW that you believe that "Spiritual Death" and "Physical Death" are not the same thing. Now I'm going to challenge you to tell me why you believe this, using the bible for support. If there were a verse that said "Spiritual Death is not the same thing as Physical Death" that would go a long way in convincing me.

 

[good brother]

Even in this, look at the verses you quoted. You say "enter into heaven blind", but that's not what Jesus said. Because of what you believe, you substituted in the words that you expected to see. This is actually very common. Jesus didn't say enter into heaven blind or with one hand.

I am so sorry for not spelling it out for you, Jesus said, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye (Being literally blind in at least one eye) than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell" Oh, and Jesus most certainly did say something about the cut off hand. He said, "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell." He most certainly said that it's better to enter into life (that is everlasting life in His heaven) with one hand than it is to go to hell (eternal separation from Him in fiery darkness where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched) with both hands.

He said "enter into LIFE", which actually supports what I've been saying.

Actually, He said, "enter the KINGDOM OF GOD with one eye" (Read verse 47) and not "enter into LIFE" like you said He said. Because of what you believe, you substituted in the words that you expected to see. This is actually very common.

I KNOW that you believe that "Spiritual Death" and "Physical Death" are not the same thing. Now I'm going to challenge you to tell me why you believe this, using the bible for support. If there were a verse that said "Spiritual Death is not the same thing as Physical Death" that would go a long way in convincing me.

Here's a passage that speaks of the second, spiritual death.

Revelatio 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Said by Jesus who is God)

If the spiritual death is just a physical death, then this verse means nothing.

In Christ, GB

P.S. I love how you failed to even broach the subject of the passage I quoted and talked about. If spiritual death is just another physical death and not an everlasting thing, why in the world would Jesus say that it's better to be drowned in the sea than to -what exactly? Would it be better for them to die on land? Would it be better for them to die playing hopscotch? Why would death by drowning be better than any other death? and what about the rest of the passage? Why does Jesus rattle on about it being better to go to heaven blind, maimed, and crippled than to go to hell in one piece if there is no hell?

 

[Montalban]

Because the machete is not a parable, it a huge sharp knife.

Or, a short sword

Or, a Cavaquinho

Or, a recent film. Or, a character in said film.

Or, a wrestler.

Or, the title of several songs.

The word has many meanings.

However for your theory, it relies wholly on circular logic. It is something because it is, because it is, because it is.

Your posts still don't address most of what I wrote anyway, such as reconciling the 'torment' verses.

 

[Montalban]

Zaac, I find it absolutely astonishing that many witness JUST AS YOU DO, each claiming they merely witness to WHAT GOD SAYS.

And you all contradict each other.

Now I know that you are not responsible for THEM, but if you are unable to see the point being made then I will conclude that in fact you are a human being afraid to confront your own doubts.

Firstly, mututally exclusive claims do not make them all wrong.

Secondly (and I don't wish to derail the debate) but this is a problem when for the most part each individual is their own interpreter of the Bible.

 

[Timothew]

Or, a short sword

Or, a Cavaquinho

Or, a recent film. Or, a character in said film.

Or, a wrestler.

Or, the title of several songs.

The word has many meanings.

However for your theory, it relies wholly on circular logic. It is something because it is, because it is, because it is.

Your posts still don't address most of what I wrote anyway, such as reconciling the 'torment' verses.

In my parable, the man (let's call him Jimmy) didn't SAY that he had a machete. In my parable, Jimmy was holding a machete when he said that he would kill me. So the definition of machete is irrelevent. Perhaps Machete is a wrestler. Jimmy wasn't holding Machete the Wrestler in his hand, Jimmy was holding a great big knife.

(Hey, a parable with a proper name!)

 

[Montalban]

In my parable, the man (let's call him Jimmy) didn't SAY that he had a machete. In my parable, Jimmy was holding a machete when he said that he would kill me. So the definition of machete is irrelevent. Perhaps Machete is a wrestler. Jimmy wasn't holding Machete the Wrestler in his hand, Jimmy was holding a great big knife.

So your post of circular logic is based on circular logic!

That's no revelation.

 

[Montalban]

In case people don't follow this. One poster has said that one word has one meaning in the context of one verse.

Why? Because it does.

Why? Because it does.

Why? Because it does.

That's circular logic.

The only support for the assertion is the assertion itself repeated.

I have asked how this is reconciled with other verses and so far no reasons have been given.