Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

[Timothew]

Let those reading the thread arguing with you decide if you are preaching/teaching annihilationism or not.

That's what I always do.

 

[Timothew]

No problem.

Some do. I object to it when they do.


I explained twice now what I believe it means. Here's the third time. I'll give more detail

When Adam sinned he allowed corruption into the world. One of the results of this is death - which is not natural (insofar as God wanted us to have everlasting life)

The whole point is that we're not what we are meant to be.

We're meant to be joined to God and have everlasting life. Life in this sense means to exist in that state which is what God wants for us. It doesn't necessarily mean that we will have a pulse, or bleed, or whatever living people do.

For those that choose to separate themselves from God (doing this by sinning) they choose death. And in 'death' this means to live an existence that is not what God wants for us, but will allow because he respects our right to choose.

You've mentioned God only speaking in parables. He doesn't have to, but can still speak figuratively.

The Bible is full of examples. For e.g. in the Book of Genesis it says that God breathed life into Adam. Does that mean God had a mouth and lungs? I don't believe we need to believe that this is literally so. I believe it simply without understanding it.

As I noted several times the Jews, in translating their books into Greek chose "Hades" rather than a word meaning 'pit'.

They chose the word that most represented their understanding of the after-world.

We do the same when we chose the Germanic word "Hell" (Hel) which also denotes a place where people are aware.

Now when it comes to addressing what people write, I've mentioned 'death' as I understand it to mean two times before. Neither time was it addressed.

I mentioned "Hades" before and got the mistake where you assumed the Greeks chose the word. They didn't. The Jews did.

Add to this I've asked how you reconcile the verses that speak of torment, etc. And no response has addressed this.

The only response is to repeat a passage and say it means death.

Now for argument's sake I could be wrong. Simply not addressing what I've said and repeating an assertion is not a discussion.

But it seems that all of this assumes that death is not really death. I don't think we should just assume that death is not death. If a huge guy with a machete says "I'm going to kill you," I don't assume that death isn't really death.

 

[Robban]

The only NT I have handy is a Swedish edition, just read the passage about Lazaros, there is stacks of important stuff there.
First, It talks about a beggar by the name of Lazaros, covered in scabs, which dogs came and licked for him, (can mean something else)
A very rich and wealthy person, who lived in luxury, lacked nothing.
The rich man was fully aware of the beggar, but did not give him even a crumb.
So what happens, the beggar goes out of time, angels come and carry him off to Abrahams side.
The rich man also goes out of time and is laid in a grave, which by the way Lazaros would not have had the money to buy anyway.
My first observation is, nothing is mentioned of either of them having a particular "faith", rather it illustrates actions determining ones "end" than proffessing of the lips.

 

[singapito]

figuratively yes there is hell, Jesus spoke about it and in Revelation we know of judgement

 

[Montalban]

But it seems that all of this assumes that death is not really death. I don't think we should just assume that death is not death. If a huge guy with a machete says "I'm going to kill you," I don't assume that death isn't really death.

*sigh*

Why not? In other posts you insisted that verses were parables.

 

[Zaac]

Well, my mom died when I was 15. I suppose since you know everything, you are going to tell me she has been burning alive being tortured in hell for the past 32 years, and she will continue to burn alive in torture for the next billion centuries.

I'm sorry about the loss of your mother. But if your mother was not a Christian, yes in accordance with GOD's word, not Zaac's, she will spend eternity separated from Him first in hell and then the Lake of Fire.

The truth doesn't change. I'd be required of God to preach the same truth if I were sitting here talking about my mother.

Talk about that, since you don't want to talk about scriptures at all.

I spoke about Scripture and your teaching that it says something it does not.

Scripture plainly says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus out Lord. Since my mom received the gift of eternal life, she will be resurrected and live forever with God.

If she was a Christian, she will live forever with God. If she wasn't she will live forever separated from God in the Lake of Fire.

But you want to make the scriptures say something else.

Scripture says what it says. You're the one trying to annihilate folks to keep them from being eternally responsible for their eternal unforgiven sin.

 

[good brother]

But it seems that all of this assumes that death is not really death. I don't think we should just assume that death is not death. If a huge guy with a machete says "I'm going to kill you," I don't assume that death isn't really death.

We need to remember that there is a huge difference between "physical death" and "spiritual death". If I said that my career is dead, does that mean that it literally died- that I put it into a coffin- that I had a ceremony for it that ended at the graveyard with a guy playing Amazing Grace on the bag pipes- does it mean that? No. Does it mean that I can never take up that career again? Not at all, I certainly could do that job again.

Does that make any sense? That the word "death" can take on different meanings and not always be limited to "The stopping of one's heart and one's breath"?

Spiritual death is not the stopping of one's heart or one's breath but the stopping of having any communion with God. You see, even those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior still enjoy some of His blessings in this world. However, if they die (a physical death) without knowing Him as Savior will lead them to an eternal spiritual death that will cut them off from the blessings of God. The complete separation from God is the spiritual death that the Bible speaks of.

In Christ, GB

 

[Robban]

I'm sorry about the loss of your mother. But if your mother was not a Christian, yes in accordance with GOD's word, not Zaac's, she will spend eternity separated from Him first in hell and then the Lake of Fire.

The truth doesn't change. I'd be required of God to preach the same truth if I were sitting here talking about my mother.



I spoke about Scripture and your teaching that it says something it does not.



If she was a Christian, she will live forever with God. If she wasn't she will live forever separated from God in the Lake of Fire.



Scripture says what it says. You're the one trying to annihilate folks to keep them from being eternally responsible for their eternal unforgiven sin.

What is so magical about calling one,s self "Christian".
As a matter of fact I believe it will be the opposite.
Those that have taken big words in their mouths and condemned others, will be judged after their own words.
What goes around comes around. Have you not noticed already in the here and now?

 

[Montalban]

What is so magical about calling one,s self "Christian".
As a matter of fact I believe it will be the opposite.
Those that have taken big words in their mouths and condemned others, will be judged after their own words.
What goes around comes around. Have you not noticed already in the here and now?

He's not saying that she is in a lake of fire. It's conditional.

I myself don't speculate on such matters - God's will be done.

 

[Montalban]

We need to remember that there is a huge difference between "physical death" and "spiritual death".

Absolutely, just as some are (re-)born by the spirit.

 

[Robban]

He's not saying that she is in a lake of fire. It's conditional.

I myself don't speculate on such matters - God's will be done.

I know you don,t Montalban, that I have noticed about you.
I was awoken by a storm outside, when I read the post by Zaac, I wondered if I was dreaming.

 

[Timothew]

*sigh*

Why not? In other posts you insisted that verses were parables.

Because the machete is not a parable, it a huge sharp knife.

 

[Zaac]

What is so magical about calling one,s self "Christian".

Absolutely nothing. The majority(by far, close to 80%) of Americans identify themselves as Christians( imagine that). But we know that is not true.

As a matter of fact I believe it will be the opposite.
Those that have taken big words in their mouths and condemned others, will be judged after their own words.

Who has condemned anyone? Folks confuse preaching God's truth with condemnation. People condemn themselves by rejecting Christ. And those who have died while rejecting Christ ARE right now in hell.

What goes around comes around. Have you not noticed already in the here and now?

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why God's word says 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

There are a lot of folks presuming to teach based upon what they "think, feel, or believe" instead of what GOD SAYS.

 

[ThankGod]

He's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ right. The Bible talks about hell. Many people cannot see past the Bible's seemingly condemnation of people, and get to God's love. Once you truly experience God's and Jesus' love for yourself, and know/understand that God is ALL around you, you won't even fear hell.

In fact, you won't fear anything but not following God's rules. God's awesome.

 

[Timothew]

He's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ right. The Bible talks about hell. Many people cannot see past the Bible's seemingly condemnation of people, and get to God's love. Once you truly experience God's and Jesus' love for yourself, and know/understand that God is ALL around you, you won't even fear hell.

In fact, you won't fear anything but not following God's rules. God's awesome.

He isn't right. I posted scripture after scripture that shows that there is no hell of eternal torture, but since they disagree with Zaac's established religious position, he disregards them.

Do you know that the word "hell" isn't even in the scriptures? In the original languages, the words that are translated as "hell" are Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna. Hell wasn't introduced until the dark ages.

 

[Timothew]

There are a lot of folks presuming to teach based upon what they "think, feel, or believe" instead of what GOD SAYS.

God says (through the apostle Paul) that the wages of sin is death. But there are a lot of folks who teach based on what they "think, feel, or believe" or based on their religious indoctrination, that this is not true. They falsely teach that the wages of sin is something other than death. They teach that the wages of sin is to be tormented alive in hell forever, directly contradicting the scriptures which say that the wages of sin is death. They jump through hoops trying to say that Romans 6:23 doesn't really mean that the wages of sin is death. Then they claim that anyone who quotes the scripture is just what they "think, feel, or believe."

 

[Tariki]

There are a lot of folks presuming to teach based upon what they "think, feel, or believe" instead of what GOD SAYS.

Zaac, I find it absolutely astonishing that many witness JUST AS YOU DO, each claiming they merely witness to WHAT GOD SAYS.

And you all contradict each other.

Now I know that you are not responsible for THEM, but if you are unable to see the point being made then I will conclude that in fact you are a human being afraid to confront your own doubts.

 

[Robban]

He's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ right. The Bible talks about hell. Many people cannot see past the Bible's seemingly condemnation of people, and get to God's love. Once you truly experience God's and Jesus' love for yourself, and know/understand that God is ALL around you, you won't even fear hell.

In fact, you won't fear anything but not following God's rules. God's awesome.

Really? Tip of the day, Forget it, it,s not going to happen.
I have this feeling that I,m trying oppress, by trying to see it as you and others see it. The whole 2 billion can yell and shout as much they like. it,s not going to happen. The last NT that I have will go the same way as the others I have had.
Go the extra yard? Sure, why not?
Become a doormat? No way.

 

[Zaac]

He isn't right. I posted scripture after scripture that shows that there is no hell of eternal torture, but since they disagree with Zaac's established religious position, he disregards them.

I'm not right because I(Zaac) doesn't have a word. GOD is right and your teaching is in direct opposition to what the word of God says. And thus, for sure it is disregarded because God doesn't give discernment that authors confusion about His truth. And God doesn't set folks out to teach the opposite of the truth that He has given.

The teaching that you are doing is in direct opposition of God's word and SHOULD be disregarded by all.

Like I said before, when folks start trying to rewrite Scripture about hell, it's generally because they are scared that someone they love died and went to hell. And to assuage THEIR feelings, they have to try to establish their own idea of what hell is.

And it just doesn't work that way. The truth is what GOD says it is. And GOD has established that the punishment received in separation from Him IS eternal.

Do you know that the word "hell" isn't even in the scriptures? In the original languages, the words that are translated as "hell" are Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna. Hell wasn't introduced until the dark ages.

Do you know that I read the Bible in ENGLISH and that picking and choosing one word to translate back to the original language in order to make God's word say aomething else makes for errant theology?

 

[Zaac]

Zaac, I find it absolutely astonishing that many witness JUST AS YOU DO, each claiming they merely witness to WHAT GOD SAYS.

Tariki, you're a Buddhist. And I can tell you from experience that most Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, etc, find it astonishing that I preach God's word as "God says it, end of story". They want waffle room to open the door for the possibility of something else.

There is nothing else. It's God's way or eternal punishment. The world doesn't have to like it. The world doesn't have to agree with it. But God is God ALONE and man gets no say so.

So Timothew and 6,999,999,998 billion people can assert otherwise and I'm STILL gonna preach the absolute truth of God's word as given by HIM.

And you all contradict each other.

Now I know that you are not responsible for THEM, but if you are unable to see the point being made then I will conclude that in fact you are a human being afraid to confront your own doubts.

You feel free to conclude what you wish. Your concluding has led you to not trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So at this point, your conclusions simply don't carry much weight when it comes to the things of Christ. And that's not meant to be offensive. It is again, simply the way things are.