Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

[Zaac]

I asked you to give scriptural support for your statement that the dead live somewhere as spirits. None of these references say that.

Naah what you asked was

OK, corpses then. That's the same thing.
The spirit lives eternally somewhere? Chapter and Verse, please.

And the Scripture supplied testify to the eternalness of the soul/spirit once a person dies.

Are you saying that nobody is allowed to disagree with you, that if anyone disagrees with what YOU believe they are "authoring confusion"?

Nope. Scripture says one thing. You and others try to make it say something else. So I always ask why? Why would a person who says he follows Christ start authoring confusion about something God's word CLEARLY says?

And it's ALWAYS personal just as it has historically been.
So was it a mother?father?sister?brother?child?grandma?grandpa?best friend?wife?

Whomever it was or whomever a person may think to not be saved( and thus to assuage their own feelings about said person's eternity they start trying to reconstruct Scripture to give them hope about the lost loved ones eternity), it doesn't fly.

So there is ALWAYS a reason behind folks holding so tightly to something they are trying to make Scripture say when it OBVIOUSLY says otherwise.

Who died and made you Pope?

Silly. I'm a Baptist. They wouldn't make me Pope cause I'd put on that mitre and start telling them to repent and place their trust in Jesus, not in men.

The scriptures are not confusing. The wages of sin is death. Shall I say to you that you are "Authoring Confusion" if you dare disagree with me?

You say what you like. I am saying you are authoring confusion that is not of God about something His word clearly says. Why?

Or can we have a bible study instead, and discuss what we each believe the scriptures mean.

I don't care what you or anyone THINKS Scripture means. I care what Scripture says and the discernment that the Holy Spirit gives of God's word.

And the second someone starts authoring confusion about what the words on the pages of Scripture says it is very obvious that it is because they are speaking of their OPINION and not God's absolute truth.

This calling into question what God's word says is the same foolishness the serpent used in the garden. And the Holy Spirit in the remnant ain't falling for it.

 

[Timothew]

Naah what you asked was



And the Scripture supplied testify to the eternalness of the soul/spirit once a person dies.



Nope. Scripture says one thing. You and others try to make it say something else. So I always ask why? Why would a person who says he follows Christ start authoring confusion about something God's word CLEARLY says?

And it's ALWAYS personal just as it has historically been.
So was it a mother?father?sister?brother?child?grandma?grandpa?best friend?wife?

Whomever it was or whomever a person may think to not be saved( and thus to assuage their own feelings about said person's eternity they start trying to reconstruct Scripture to give them hope about the lost loved ones eternity), it doesn't fly.

So there is ALWAYS a reason behind folks holding so tightly to something they are trying to make Scripture say when it OBVIOUSLY says otherwise.





Silly. I'm a Baptist. They wouldn't make me Pope cause I'd put on that mitre and start telling them to repent and place their trust in Jesus, not in men.



You say what you like. I am saying you are authoring confusion that is not of God about something His word clearly says. Why?



I don't care what you or anyone THINKS Scripture means. I care what Scripture says and the discernment that the Holy Spirit gives of God's word.

And the second someone starts authoring confusion about what the words on the pages of Scripture says it is very obvious that it is because they are speaking of their OPINION and not God's absolute truth.

This calling into question what God's word says is the same foolishness the serpent used in the garden. And the Holy Spirit in the remnant ain't falling for it.

I guess you don't want to have a reasonable discussion about what the scriptures say, without name-calling. Say what you like, I am not "authoring confusion" by disagreeing with you. If you can't have a reasonable discussion, get off my thread. Any more name calling or accusations of "authoring confusion" WILL be reported. You are welcome to stay for a pleasant bible study. I'll have to ask you to leave if you get unruly.

 

[spirit1st]

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa_86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.






Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


Eph_4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)




1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

[Timothew]

Psa_16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa_86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Act_2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.






Mat_12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


Eph_4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph_4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph_4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)




1Pe_4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Thanks.

 

[Zaac]

I guess you don't want to have a reasonable discussion about what the scriptures say,

A discussion about what Scripture says, Yes. What someone THINKS Scripture says,NO.

without name-calling.

Where were you even referred to by ANY name in my previous reply?

Say what you like, I am not "authoring confusion" by disagreeing with you.

I don't have a word to agree or disagree with. It's God's word that says 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46.

And it's YOU who are going against that. So you take your disagreement up with GOD and stop authoring confusion about what He says.

If you can't have a reasonable discussion, get off my thread.

So I guess it'l be considered reasonable when I start authoring the same confusion about God's word that you're attempting to author? No thanks. I'll preach the word as given. Scripture says what it says and neither a serpent in a garden or someone who starts a thread on a message board can change that or sway those firmly rooted in God's truth from preaching His word as HE gives it as opposed to what some want it to say.

So for whomever's salvation you weren't sure about before they left this world or aren't sure about, they ain't gonna be plucked from hell and then the eternal lake of fire just because you want to rewrite Scripture to assuage your feelings.

Any more name calling or accusations of "authoring confusion" WILL be reported.

Gosh, I'll press the lil report button for you. If folks would stop authoring confusion about what God's word says said persons wouldn't have to worry about it being pointed out that they are authoring confusion that is not of God.

It ain't like the Mods ain't heard me say before in the last 7 years.

You are welcome to stay for a pleasant bible study. I'll have to ask you to leave if you get unruly.

I don't do the whole false teaching thing. If a person is not in agreement with the absolute truth of God's word that is to be used to teach, correct, rebuke and train in righteousness, why on Earth would I or any other Christian allow that person to pretend to rightly be dividing the word in a maner worthy of teaching anyone anything?

The Bible says there are two kinds of wisdom. Godly wisdom aligns itself with God. Wisdom that is from the devil aligns itself against God.

James 3:14-16 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice

 

[Timothew]

A discussion about what Scripture says, Yes. What someone THINKS Scripture says,NO.



Where were you even referred to by ANY name in my previous reply?




I don't have a word to agree or disagree with. It's God's word that says 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46.

And it's YOU who are going against that. So you take your disagreement up with GOD and stop authoring confusion about what He says.



So I guess it'l be considered reasonable when I start authoring the same confusion about God's word that you're attempting to author? No thanks. I'll preach the word as given. Scripture says what it says and neither a serpent in a garden or someone who starts a thread on a message board can change that or sway those firmly rooted in God's truth from preaching His word as HE gives it as opposed to what some want it to say.

So for whomever's salvation you weren't sure about before they left this world or aren't sure about, they ain't gonna be plucked from hell and then the eternal lake of fire just because you want to rewrite Scripture to assuage your feelings.



Gosh, I'll press the lil report button for you. If folks would stop authoring confusion about what God's word says said persons wouldn't have to worry about it being pointed out that they are authoring confusion that is not of God.

It ain't like the Mods ain't heard me say before in the last 7 years.




I don't do the whole false teaching thing. If a person is not in agreement with the absolute truth of God's word that is to be used to teach, correct, rebuke and train in righteousness, why on Earth would I or any other Christian allow that person to pretend to rightly be dividing the word in a maner worthy of teaching anyone anything?

The Bible says there are two kinds of wisdom. Godly wisdom aligns itself with God. Wisdom that is from the devil aligns itself against God.

James 3:14-16 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice

Well, in that whole rant you only posted 2 scriptures.
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Of course, I agree with Matthew 25:46. The eternal punishment is death, just like Paul also says in Romans 6:23. The opposite of this is what the other group gets, eternal LIFE. Why are you authoring confusion?

I also agree with James 3:14-16.
The bitter person seems to be you. I've been nice. The wisdom I've posted comes directly from scripture. Look at the first post, the one you disagree with. Except for the first and last line, it's all scripture. If you disagree with scripture, and are causing disorder on this thread, perhaps you should take James 3:14-16 to heart.

If you disagree with Romans 6:23 why? The wages of sin is death. Do you wish to author confusion by saying the wages of sin is not death, but something else? Why do you wish to author confusion? Is God served by you authoring confusion? Remember that you said it is not name-calling to claim that someone is authoring confusion. So why do you come on my thread to sow seeds of dischord and disharmony?

It appears to me that you have accused me of some very serious things. I see the words earthly, unspiritual, demonic, and it appears that you are trying to apply them to me. Do you know that I am a Christian Brother? Do you know that Satan is the accuser of the Brethren?

I asked you calmly before to be decent.
I repeating that request. Keep it civil on this thread.

 

[Montalban]

I guess you don't want to have a reasonable discussion about what the scriptures say, without name-calling. Say what you like, I am not "authoring confusion" by disagreeing with you.

Certainly your stance poses a problem you've not been able to reconcile

You have a whole lot of verses given to you about people being 'aware' in the next life. Your only response was the completely absurd notion that Jesus ONLY spoke in parables.

I mentioned that the Jews chose the Greek term "Hades" - which you mistook for the Greeks choosing this word. They didn't. The Jews did. They chose a word which shows an after-life where people are fully aware.

 

[Zaac]

Well, in that whole rant you only posted 2 scriptures.

My rant was in response to your rant. And I posted the Scripture before. You seemingly JUST acknowledged it.

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Of course, I agree with Matthew 25:46. The eternal punishment is death, just like Paul also says in Romans 6:23. The opposite of this is what the other group gets, eternal LIFE. Why are you authoring confusion?

Nice try to cover your erroneous teaching. But as I said in this thread and another, you don't understand what Biblical death is so it's no surprise that you don't grasp how some go to eternal punishment because of their "separation from Christ" (death). The eternal punishment takes place in death. Biblically speaking, God's word makes clear what the punishment is.

Some again don't want to accept it and will come up with all sorts of scenarios to assuage their feelings about a lost loved one.

But as I've said before: DEAL WITH WHAT THE WORDS ON THE PAGE SAY.

Eternal punishment is eternal punishment.
Death is death.

So stop trying to author confusion about it.

I also agree with James 3:14-16.
The bitter person seems to be you. I've been nice. The wisdom I've posted comes directly from scripture.

Scripture doesn't go against Scripture. That's a monster of man's creating.

Look at the first post, the one you disagree with. Except for the first and last line, it's all scripture. If you disagree with scripture, and are causing disorder on this thread, perhaps you should take James 3:14-16 to heart.

Scripture says what it says. And unless you are aligned with the FULL COUNSEL of the word, you are incorrect in your assessment of what Scripture is saying.

And as you say the opposite of what Scripture says even though you've tried to willy nilly deny it by playing with words in your explanation of Matthew 25:46, it is clear that you are in contradiction of Scripture. You being at odds with Scripture is why you made the thread in the first place.

If you disagree with Romans 6:23 why? The wages of sin is death. Do you wish to author confusion by saying the wages of sin is not death, but something else?

Scripture says what Scripture says.

Why do you wish to author confusion? Is God served by you authoring confusion? Remember that you said it is not name-calling to claim that someone is authoring confusion. So why do you come on my thread to sow seeds of dischord and disharmony?

Nice try. Scripture STILL says what Scripture says and you are STILL trying to author confusion about what Scripture says. And thus, the thread.

It appears to me that you have accused me of some very serious things. I see the words earthly, unspiritual, demonic, and it appears that you are trying to apply them to me. Do you know that I am a Christian Brother? Do you know that Satan is the accuser of the Brethren?

Do you know that it's possible for a Christian to receive wisdom from the devil? And you accuse yourself by what you are doing. I'm just calling it what it is.

I asked you calmly before to be decent.
I repeating that request. Keep it civil on this thread.

You give Scripture as given in God's word and stop trying to make it say what it does not, and you won't hear a peep from me. Is that civil enough for ya?

If you're gonna author confusion and claim that God's word says something other than what He says it says, then expect my keyboard to keep on typing.

 

[Montalban]

Well, in that whole rant you only posted 2 scriptures.
Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Of course, I agree with Matthew 25:46. The eternal punishment is death, just like Paul also says in Romans 6:23. The opposite of this is what the other group gets, eternal LIFE. Why are you authoring confusion?

I also agree with James 3:14-16.
The bitter person seems to be you. I've been nice. The wisdom I've posted comes directly from scripture. Look at the first post, the one you disagree with. Except for the first and last line, it's all scripture. If you disagree with scripture, and are causing disorder on this thread, perhaps you should take James 3:14-16 to heart.

If you disagree with Romans 6:23 why? The wages of sin is death. Do you wish to author confusion by saying the wages of sin is not death, but something else? Why do you wish to author confusion? Is God served by you authoring confusion? Remember that you said it is not name-calling to claim that someone is authoring confusion. So why do you come on my thread to sow seeds of dischord and disharmony?

It appears to me that you have accused me of some very serious things. I see the words earthly, unspiritual, demonic, and it appears that you are trying to apply them to me. Do you know that I am a Christian Brother? Do you know that Satan is the accuser of the Brethren?

The wages of sin is death means that death has entered the world as a result of sin

I asked you calmly before to be decent.
I repeating that request. Keep it civil on this thread.

When people say a point made is wrong, or absurd, they're saying that the point is absurd, not that the person saying it is. It's addressing the post, not the poster. It's difficult to have a conversation with someone when they continually think that it's personal, and therefore they respond asking people to be respectful or decent; they've simply missed the point of what (as opposed to who) is addressed!

 

[Zaac]

Certainly your stance poses a problem you've not been able to reconcile

You have a whole lot of verses given to you about people being 'aware' in the next life. Your only response was the completely absurd notion that Jesus ONLY spoke in parables.

I mentioned that the Jews chose the Greek term "Hades" - which you mistook for the Greeks choosing this word. They didn't. The Jews did. They chose a word which shows an after-life where people are fully aware.

Thank you. The only way to make what Timothew say correct is to undo all of Scripture.

Scripture speaks directly to the original question he asked and he STILL wants to make it say something else.

And thus I still wonder who the died and assumed probably went to hell loved one is?

 

[Timothew]

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So stop trying to author confusion about it.
though you've tried to willy nilly deny it by playing with words
That's a monster of man's creating.
Do you know that it's possible for a Christian to receive wisdom from the devil? And you accuse yourself by what you are doing. I'm just calling it what it is.

 

[Montalban]

I believe that Adam may have lived forever. However he sinned and the wages of sin is death in that by his actions he brought corruption into the world.

For most westerners this is "Original Sin" (transmitted through the sexual act to succeeding generations)

For easterners such as myself this is "Original Guilt" - that sin and corruption are in the world and as we are also in the world, are affected by living in an imperfect place.

Either way, it's not as one lone voice on this thread maintains.

 

[Timothew]

Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

According to Jesus Christ, the road is wide that leads to destruction. He said destruction, not eternal torment.

According to God (recorded in Genesis) the result of sin is death and being returned to dust, not eternal torment.

According to the bible, there is no hell of eternal torment, there is only life in Christ or death without Christ.

None of this scripture is opposed to scripture, regardless of what Zaac thinks. And Monte, it is personal when someone says that you are "trying to author confusion." You would take offense if Zaac said it to you. The only reason you don't see it as offensive is that you agree with his position.

Ask Zaac about "apostolic succession" and you will receive the same treatment from him that I get.

 

[Timothew]

Thank you. The only way to make what Timothew say correct is to undo all of Scripture.

Scripture speaks directly to the original question he asked and he STILL wants to make it say something else.

And thus I still wonder who the died and assumed probably went to hell loved one is?

Well, my mom died when I was 15. I suppose since you know everything, you are going to tell me she has been burning alive being tortured in hell for the past 32 years, and she will continue to burn alive in torture for the next billion centuries.

Talk about that, since you don't want to talk about scriptures at all.
Scripture plainly says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus out Lord. Since my mom received the gift of eternal life, she will be resurrected and live forever with God.

But you want to make the scriptures say something else.

 

[Montalban]

None of this scripture is opposed to scripture, regardless of what Zaac thinks. And Monte, it is personal when someone says that you are "trying to author confusion." You would take offense if Zaac said it to you. The only reason you don't see it as offensive is that you agree with his position.

Ask Zaac about "apostolic succession" and you will receive the same treatment from him that I get.

Who is Monte?

If you mean me, my UserName is Montalban.

Secondly your repeating of "Scripture isn't against scripture" is correct. Your interpretation of scripture is not correct.

You've not shown how you can reconcile the two points; scripture that shows people being aware, and in torment, with your own theory.

I explained what I believe 'the wages of sin' means. Your posts don't address that but simply repeat the position you hold.

Your posts have been calling for people to have a discussion. I believe (aside from not taking liberties with my name) should be about addressing what people say.

Not just writing it off as a 'long rant', or simply repeating the OP over and over again.

 

[Timothew]

Who is Monte?

If you mean me, my UserName is Montalban.

Secondly your repeating of "Scripture isn't against scripture" is correct. Your interpretation of scripture is not correct.

You've not shown how you can reconcile the two points; scripture that shows people being aware, and in torment, with your own theory.

I explained what I believe 'the wages of sin' means. Your posts don't address that but simply repeat the position you hold.

Your posts have been calling for people to have a discussion. I believe (aside from not taking liberties with my name) should be about addressing what people say.

Not just writing it off as a 'long rant', or simply repeating the OP over and over again.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take liberties with your name. I thought that is what people called you. Addressing what people say is a different thing than saying they are trying to author confusion just because they are saying something different from someone has always believed.

I interpret Romans 6:23 as saying that the wages of sin is death. How is that wrong? Do you not believe this? If you've addressed how Romans 6:23 is saying that the wages of sin is not death, I'm sorry I didn't see it. Zaac was trying to annoy me, so I may have missed your post.

 

[Sophrosyne]

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[Timothew]

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
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Quoting Romans 6:23 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is forbidden now because of the Annihilationist rule?

Sorry Sophro, I didn't think that you believed Romans 6:23 and 2 Thess 1:9 promoted annihilationism.

I'm not promoting annihilationism, I'm merely pointing out that the wages of sin is death and the penalty to be paid is destruction.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Quoting Romans 6:23 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is forbidden now because of the Annihilationist rule?

Sorry Sophro, I didn't think that you believed Romans 6:23 and 2 Thess 1:9 promoted annihilationism.

I'm not promoting annihilationism, I'm merely pointing out that the wages of sin is death and the penalty to be paid is destruction.

I am just pointing out the rule... let those reading the thread arguing with you decide if you are preaching/teaching annihilationism or not.

 

[Montalban]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take liberties with your name.

No problem.

I thought that is what people called you.

Some do. I object to it when they do.

I interpret Romans 6:23 as saying that the wages of sin is death.
How is that wrong? Do you not believe this? If you've addressed how Romans 6:23 is saying that the wages of sin is not death, I'm sorry I didn't see it. Zaac was trying to annoy me, so I may have missed your post.

I explained twice now what I believe it means. Here's the third time. I'll give more detail

When Adam sinned he allowed corruption into the world. One of the results of this is death - which is not natural (insofar as God wanted us to have everlasting life)

The whole point is that we're not what we are meant to be.

We're meant to be joined to God and have everlasting life. Life in this sense means to exist in that state which is what God wants for us. It doesn't necessarily mean that we will have a pulse, or bleed, or whatever living people do.

For those that choose to separate themselves from God (doing this by sinning) they choose death. And in 'death' this means to live an existence that is not what God wants for us, but will allow because he respects our right to choose.

You've mentioned God only speaking in parables. He doesn't have to, but can still speak figuratively.

The Bible is full of examples. For e.g. in the Book of Genesis it says that God breathed life into Adam. Does that mean God had a mouth and lungs? I don't believe we need to believe that this is literally so. I believe it simply without understanding it.

As I noted several times the Jews, in translating their books into Greek chose "Hades" rather than a word meaning 'pit'.

They chose the word that most represented their understanding of the after-world.

We do the same when we chose the Germanic word "Hell" (Hel) which also denotes a place where people are aware.

Now when it comes to addressing what people write, I've mentioned 'death' as I understand it to mean two times before. Neither time was it addressed.

I mentioned "Hades" before and got the mistake where you assumed the Greeks chose the word. They didn't. The Jews did.

Add to this I've asked how you reconcile the verses that speak of torment, etc. And no response has addressed this.

The only response is to repeat a passage and say it means death.

Now for argument's sake I could be wrong. Simply not addressing what I've said and repeating an assertion is not a discussion.