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Did God Fail?

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Question.Everything

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Why did God choose to write things the way he did? Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago? Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is? Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran? Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book? Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity? Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?

While I'm very receptive to the idea of an intelligent designer for the universe, it's literally laughable to think that the Bible is the product of this perfectly loving, benevolent creator. If this is God's work, then he clearly failed as he did pre-flood.

Third times a charm?
 

aiki

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Why did God choose to write things the way he did? Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago? Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is? Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran? Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book? Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity? Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?

While I'm very receptive to the idea of an intelligent designer for the universe, it's literally laughable to think that the Bible is the product of this perfectly loving, benevolent creator. If this is God's work, then he clearly failed as he did pre-flood.

Third times a charm?

It sounds here like you aren't really asking questions so much as registering a complaint about the biblical God. I don't think this is a complaint forum, however. If you dislike God's methods, tell Him so directly. I'm sure He'll give your complaints the attention they deserve.

Selah.
 
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Question.Everything

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It sounds here like you aren't really asking questions so much as registering a complaint about the biblical God. I don't think this is a complaint forum, however. If you dislike God's methods, tell Him so directly. I'm sure He'll give your complaints the attention they deserve.

Selah.

Is there any purpose in telling God something he already knows? Do you not think I've tried to talk to God before? Unfortunately my calls only go one way.

Yes, they're complaints, but that doesn't mean they make no sense. Christian God makes it very difficult to believe in the Bible, and my above questions only highlight a few reasons why. It's not logical that an all loving God would make his religion so hard to believe. Not even close.

Since God can't seem to directly answer my questions, can you?
 
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Jeff4life

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Why did God choose to write things the way he did? Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago? Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is? Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran? Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book? Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity? Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?

While I'm very receptive to the idea of an intelligent designer for the universe, it's literally laughable to think that the Bible is the product of this perfectly loving, benevolent creator. If this is God's work, then he clearly failed as he did pre-flood.

Third times a charm?

This is something I wrote for a blog that I think will help answer your question.

Evolution, the Bible, and the 3.5 Million Dollar Violin


It was 7th grade biology class, and we began to learn the theory of evolution. The evidence seemed absolutely clear to me—evolution was an undeniable fact. I picked up my bible and compared what I read to what I learned in my biology class. The accounts seemed clearly contradictory. It didn’t take much time for me to conclude that all of Christianity was a sham. I will come back to this in a bit, but first, do me a favor and let me tell you another story…

In January of 2007, world-renowned violin virtuoso Joshua Bell took his 3.5 million dollar violin to the Washington D.C. metro station to play some songs as a street musician. Dressing modestly in a baseball cap, jeans, and a long-sleeved t-shirt, Bell left his violin case open for tips as he played 6 classical songs, one of which has been called the most difficult song on any instrument—J.S. Bach’s Chaconne. Of this song, the great composer Johannes Brahms said, “if I imagined that I could have created, even conceived the piece, I am quite certain that the excess of excitement and earth-shattering experience would have driven me out of my mind."

With violin virtuoso Joshua Bell’s level of talent, playing this sort of music, you might expect that Bell would draw a rather large crowd. So what happened? After 43 minutes and 1097 passersby there was no crowd, and only seven people stopped during the entire performance, at least for a minute. However, as the Washington Post notes, “Every single time a child walked past, he or she tried to stop and watch. And every single time, a parent scooted the kid away.”

The experiment was to see if people would recognize genius if it came in a form they were not expecting, or if their prejudgments (in this case, against street musicians) would blind them to the modest looking man playing some of the most difficult music in the world on one of the most expensive instruments in the world. The results were clear, people’s prejudice did blind them to see the genius right in front of them.
Now, what if God were to do a similar thing? Hide all of His pomp and majesty, put on an average person’s clothes, and express His character non-verbally as David says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.” (Psalm 19:1, NIV) Would many people just walk by? It certainly seems that the Joshua Bell experiment shows at least that much is possible.

On a similar thought, is it possible that God could have a purpose for doing such a thing? Well Joshua Bell did. If there was a sign outside of the metro station saying, “Joshua Bell, world Class Violinist plays world class music on a 3.5 million dollar violin” you can bet that there would be hundreds of people packed in the small area of the metro station that Bell was playing in. Likewise, if God were to write on every molecule “made by God… also don’t forget to read the Gospel of John and believe in Jesus” you can bet that there would be only a few uneducated non-Christians.

However, what did Bell gain by keeping his identity hidden? He got people who would appreciate his music for what it was, and not for his pomp and circumstance. It was only the beauty of the music itself that drew people, and people with other, lesser motivations were filtered out.

It now seems like a good time to come back my story about myself in seventh grade. So, might this answer the question I had in the 7th grade, “why would God make a bible that appears clearly to contradict what science says?” I am quite sure it does. God creating a bible with such apparent contradictions with science could be just like Joshua Bell putting on the clothes of an average person, looking to see who will stop for the music’s sake, and not out of other motives. If God were to make his beautiful nature known, might we still walk by it because it came without all of the pomp it might come with?

I think that is what I did after my 7th grade biology class. I now recognize that God right now is making his character known while in average clothing. God does so by the beauty in the sky, as the Psalmist says, “the heavens declare the glory of the Lord,” and in the beauty of Jesus, who, going father than Joshua Bell, was not just dressed up in average clothes, but was stripped naked and nailed to a cross.

Is it possible that like the 1090 people who walked by Joshua Bell, you would walk by? Or would you be like the little child, who, absent of the false preconceptions of their parents, stops to listen? I walked by, and I am glad that by the grace of God I can now take a seat and enjoy His beauty. I hope everyone reading this will notice the humble man in jeans and a baseball cap, playing the most difficult song (which is now also my favorite song—J.S. Bach’s Chaconne) on a 3.5 million dollar violin. On a less serious note, I was recently thinking about trying my hand at playing classical music as a street musician, and I think this story is a great way to keep me from losing my confidence if it doesn’t work out…

- Jeff
 
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Question.Everything

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This is something I wrote for a blog that I think will help answer your question.

I'm sorry but it doesn't. My very questions target your analogy. For God to make himself and his work known to man, you would expect that he's the amazing violinist playing a perfect piece on a 3.5 million dollar violin. The Bible is not even close to that, the Bible is extremely imperfect and holds no credibility (see my questions). It is a sloppy masterpiece at best, which is uncharacteristic of a supposed perfect violin player and composer.
 
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Jeff4life

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I'm sorry but it doesn't. My very questions target your analogy. For God to make himself and his work known to man, you would expect that he's the amazing violinist playing a perfect piece on a 3.5 million dollar violin. The Bible is not even close to that, the Bible is extremely imperfect and holds no credibility (see my questions). It is a sloppy masterpiece at best, which is uncharacteristic of a supposed perfect violin player and composer.

Would you recognize a 3.5 million dollar violin if you saw one? I don't think you would. Likewise the beauty of the bible is not obvious to everyone. What you call a sloppy masterpiece I call just the clothes of the violinist--not the song.
 
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Question.Everything

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Would you recognize a 3.5 million dollar violin if you saw one? I don't think you would. Likewise the beauty of the bible is not obvious to everyone. What you call a sloppy masterpiece I call just the clothes of the violinist--not the song.

But in this case, the violinist loves us and wants us all to believe in him. If a violinist wants the world to hear his violin, why would he dress in dirty clothing and play in a subway where many people don't appreciate classical music?

Or are you suggesting that humans are merely a science study for God on human behavior? He plays in the subways to see who will stop and listen to him, and damns the rest of humanity to hell. Again, doesn't match up with God's loving nature.
 
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razeontherock

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are you suggesting that humans are merely a science study for God on human behavior? He plays in the subways to see who will stop and listen to him, and damns the rest of humanity to hell. Again, doesn't match up with God's loving nature.

I question if you understand what Love is.
 
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ebia

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Question.Everything said:
Why did God choose to write things the way he did? Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago?
The old testament is not a set of laws.
Its an unfinished story.

Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is?
I don't find them such.
Perhaps you need to ask yourself why you think they are.

Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran?
maybe you're looking at them in the wrong way. They are self-evidently very different books. The Koran is a (somewhat poetic) collection of commands and statement. It is supposedly eternal and divine. To me it doesn't look like that at all - it looks very human and very much a product of it's time and place. The bible, on the other hand, is a story. A story that sets out to be immersed in the messiness of human history, not timeless but the story in time, not just divine but also human.

Your problem and that of many Christians is trying to treat the bible as though it is supposed to be like the Quran.

Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book?
it's a story - stories don't start off demanding belief, they invite suspension of disbelief.

Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity?
is it?

Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?
the bible is not a divine instruction on science (and would be useless if it was)
It's a story, written within (but stretching) the perspective of the time and people writing it
 
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Question.Everything

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I question if you understand what Love is.

Since love is a subjective term, I can only speak of my own experience of it. For example I love my family. Even if they mistreated me, disrespected me, or didn't believe in my thoughts, I would never condemn them to death. I would never physically harm them.

God apparently loves me, but will condemn me to eternal torture for not believing in a creed written by other men. This is not the love I experience.
 
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ebia

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Question.Everything said:
Since love is a subjective term, I can only speak of my own experience of it. For example I love my family. Even if they mistreated me, disrespected me, or didn't believe in my thoughts, I would never condemn them to death. I would never physically harm them.

God apparently loves me, but will condemn me to eternal torture for not believing in a creed written by other men. This is not the love I experience.

Or rather, God loves you and invites you to be healed and to be part of his world-put-right. But ultimately will not force that if you decline.
 
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Question.Everything

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Your problem and that of many Christians is trying to treat the bible as though it is supposed to be like the Quran.

Who are you to tell Christians how to properly treat the Bible? Is there any Biblical basis for this assertion? Where in the Bible does it say "This is all a story, you are not meant to read this as a statement."?

On the contrary, the Bible is a statement. It states that if you do not follow Jesus and believe in his sacrifice, you are condemned to hell. I can pull up Biblical references if you'd like, but it'd shock me if a Christian didn't know the basis for Christianity.

it's a story - stories don't start off demanding belief, they invite suspension of disbelief.

Unfortunately you're wrong, the Bible does demand belief. "The only way to the Father is through me." I do not believe that the sacrifice of Jesus does anything, therefore I cannot get to the Father (heaven).


Yes. I'd encourage you to ask a Muslim why they aren't Christian if you'd like to find out for yourself. In the mean time, realize that you're just answering questions with more questions.

the bible is not a divine instruction on science (and would be useless if it was)
It's a story, written within (but stretching) the perspective of the time and people writing it

When did I ever claim that the Bible was a science manual or textbook? There is science in the Bible though. I said the science in the Bible is completely wrong and impossible.
 
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ebia

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Question.Everything said:
Who are you to tell Christians how to properly treat the Bible? Is there any Biblical basis for this assertion? Where in the Bible does it say "This is all a story, you are not meant to read this as a statement."?
if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck,...

Not to mention the way earlier parts are used by the later parts.

So yes, there is biblical basis for my assertion. But if one is reading a text I the wrong way one is liable to be blind to the direction the text gives to it's own reading.

The point is that the bible does not set itself up as the type of thing you want to assess it as; post biblical people do. That it doesn't meet that criteria therefore shows nothing. The Quran, on the other hand, sets itself up as eternal, timeless and purely divine. The bible gives no such hostage to fortune.

On the contrary, the Bible is a statement. It states that if you do not follow Jesus and believe in his sacrifice, you are condemned to hell. I can pull up Biblical references if you'd like, but it'd shock me if a Christian didn't know the basis for Christianity.
that's a statement you've drawn out if the bible. A way in which you and others have tried to reduce it to a timeless statement. You've tried to make it fit the test you want to apply

Unfortunately you're wrong, the Bible does demand belief. "The only way to the Father is through me." I do not believe that the sacrifice of Jesus does anything, therefore I cannot get to the Father (heaven).
your quote doesn't say what you are using it to say, even dragged out of it's context

Yes. I'd encourage you to ask a Muslim why they aren't Christian if you'd like to find out for yourself. In the mean time, realize that you're just answering questions with more questions.
I've had lots of conversations with Muslims, thanks.

When did I ever claim that the Bible was a science manual or textbook? There is science in the Bible though. I said the science in the Bible is completely wrong and impossible.
the concept of science in the modern sense did not exist. The bible describes things in ways that are pre-scientific. As is appropriate except to one complaining because it isn't something it's not trying to be.
 
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hedrick

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I agree with Ebia. The problem happens when you view the whole Bible as a collection of rules that you can pick out at random. But if you take it on its own terms, it's the history of God working with his people. They didn't learn quickly or completely. So there's plenty of things there that aren't God's final answer. You want to look at how the prophets interpreted history for the people. And as Ebia says, you want to look at the OT as preparation for Jesus.

The problem is that many (most?) Christians disagree with this approach. They view God as the author of the Bible in the sense that every part of it has the same authority as every other part. I think you have to look at the overall purpose and direction first.
 
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FreeinChrist

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As a reminder, per the guidelines for this forum, the ONLY non-Christian allowed to post in this thread is the OP.

A clean up was done.
 
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aiki

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Is there any purpose in telling God something he already knows? Do you not think I've tried to talk to God before? Unfortunately my calls only go one way.
You seem to have missed the point of my comments...

Yes, they're complaints, but that doesn't mean they make no sense. Christian God makes it very difficult to believe in the Bible, and my above questions only highlight a few reasons why. It's not logical that an all loving God would make his religion so hard to believe. Not even close.
It isn't hard to believe. I have no trouble at all believing it - as do millions of other Christians.

Since God can't seem to directly answer my questions, can you?
As I already noted, you don't really seem to want an answer, only to offer a complaint. But I can offer a couple of responses to your questions.

Why did God choose to write things the way he did?
Because He wanted to.

Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago?
The OT isn't only a "set of laws for early evolved humans." God sets out His laws in some of the books of the OT, but there is much more besides: poetry, prophecy, historical events, wisdom literature, etc. The OT, then, is "apparently" as you describe above because you seem not - apparently - to have read it.

Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is?
"Clearly as convincing"? To whom? Not to me, that's for sure!

Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran?
Verifiable in respect to what, exactly? Are you aware of how prominently the Bible figures in archaeological research of the Middle East? At least in this regard the Q'uran doesn't even come close to the Bible.

Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book?
Because it is the truth and all other "holy books" are false. And many very intelligent, reasonable people have come to this conclusion about the Bible.

Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity?
Is it difficult? I've heard of Muslims coming to the Christian faith quite a lot lately. I suppose there is some difficulty because of the threat of death that hangs over anyone who apostasizes from Islam to embrace Christianity.

Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?
Science in the Bible? Like what, for instance?

While I'm very receptive to the idea of an intelligent designer for the universe, it's literally laughable to think that the Bible is the product of this perfectly loving, benevolent creator.
I don't think so...but you're entitled to your opinion.

If this is God's work, then he clearly failed as he did pre-flood.
Not at all.

Selah.
 
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secondtimearound

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Since love is a subjective term, I can only speak of my own experience of it. For example I love my family. Even if they mistreated me, disrespected me, or didn't believe in my thoughts, I would never condemn them to death. I would never physically harm them.

God apparently loves me, but will condemn me to eternal torture for not believing in a creed written by other men. This is not the love I experience.


Hold up homeboy, "love is a subjective term." Nice try. What do you think love is?

Love and it's existence is the single biggest reason to believe in God. Love is not just an emotion, love is found in anger, in justice, in moral obligation to your fellow man, in our conscience, our decisions and our relationships. Never changing, Love is the one thing we are all desperately searching for and yet so few find. But here's the real kicker, according to the Bible, God is Love and the faster you realize that Love is not some subjective feeling but exists outside of us and around us, the faster you can start trying to figure out who best represents love. Jesus.
 
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Question.Everything

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Goodness gracious, so many things to respond to. It's going to take me a while but given that I only have a few minutes right now, I'll take care of 1 of the responses quickly.

Hold up homeboy, "love is a subjective term." Nice try. What do you think love is?

Subjective. Your love is not he same as Hitler's love. Your love may not be the same as my love. Emotions are purely subjective, unless you have any reason to prove otherwise.

For instance, Muslims that suicide bomb themselves truly believe that Allah loves them and will bless them in the afterlife. Their love is just as genuine as yours, and completely different at the same time. Why else would somebody kill themselves along with other people?
 
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drich0150

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Why did God choose to write things the way he did? Why is the Old Testament apparently a set of laws only for early evolved humans 2-6,000 years ago? Why have so many other religions popped up that are clearly as convincing as Christianity is? Why is the Bible no more verifiable than the Koran? Why would God expect intelligent, reasonable, evolved humans to believe the Bible over any other holy book? Why is it so difficult for Muslims (or any non-Christian) to convert to Christianity? Why is science in the Bible clearly false and impossible?

While I'm very receptive to the idea of an intelligent designer for the universe, it's literally laughable to think that the Bible is the product of this perfectly loving, benevolent creator. If this is God's work, then he clearly failed as he did pre-flood.

Third times a charm?
:)
So because God did not do things in a way easy for You to understand, you consider it a failure??
 
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