What is death?

[Mikecpking]

The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man

 

[zeke37]

Zeke, you might go look also at the account in 1 cor 15...

i do so often. it is a counterpart to the 1Thes4 scripture
the dead are raised and we (who are alive at His Coming) are changed to be like them.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

your Thess you provided here does not say that they will come from the heaven the Christ is in....

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

​

Please note verse 16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven.." Now this plainly said that the Lord himself and not others and you keep saying....

it means that, the Lord Coming here, is a real big deal...
the Lord Himself....
it does not mean He comes here alone.
and that is easily proven in verse 14, and a plethora of other scriptures.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
​

I see no where here that Christians came down out of heaven (where God's throne is) with Christ... Again, you might want to read 1 Cor 15...

i do often.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

​

so, they COME.

so both in 1Cor15 and 1Thes4, i see where the 'sleeping" Christians are brought by God, here, to be rasied.

If you put all the facts together I think you will find that the dead in Christ, those that are God's, are raised up to meet him in the air (heaven) and then He descends on mount olives...when they meet Him he has already left the heaven where the throne of God is...

na...
when the dead in Christ die, they exist in heaven.
they wait there until the 2nd Coming,
and then Christ leaves heaven with them, and comes here to earth with them,
then He raises them here on earth again, and changes the alive in Christ at that time, to be like them.
(like the angels).
and He gathers them all together in a great big cloud of witnesses....

I wonder, do you understand that the bible talks of three different heavens?

2 really...
the sky, and heaven where God's throne is

3, only in the latter's context of ages...not levels.
one heaven (where God's thone is), one earth...
three ages of their existance.

one past, Gen1:1 - Gen1:2
one present, Gen1:2 - Judgement
one future, Rev 21f..eternity.

whether in vision or not, Paul was taken to the third or final age, where heaven and earth are one. heaven is here.

 

[Mikecpking]

i do so often. it is a counterpart to the 1Thes4 scripture
the dead are raised and we (who are alive at His Coming) are changed to be like them.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
​

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

​

it means that, the Lord Coming here, is a real big deal...
the Lord Himself....
it does not mean He comes here alone.
and that is easily proven in verse 14, and a plethora of other scriptures.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
​

i do often.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

​

so, they COME.

so both in 1Cor15 and 1Thes4, i see where the 'sleeping" Christians are brought by God, here, to be rasied.


na...


one heaven, one earth...three ages of their existance.
whether in vision or not, Paul was taken to the third or final age, where heaven and earth are one. heaven is here.

God will bring with him? Are you saying this means down from heaven?

Paul is stating that as like Jesus Rose from the dead, God will bring those who are in the graves the same way like Jesus was resurrected. Nothing more. Read onto V15 and 16.

Here is a nice link which answers your points:

Man and Mortality

 

[zeke37]

yes, because i already answered it.
you simply disagree that destroy fully means annihilate.

plus...speaking of the flesh death....

NOPE! I provided discussion and you simply repeat the same exact mantra which shows me that you indeed don't understand and have no evidence prolly cause your source hasn't give you more. Go back and ask him so you can paste it in.

i know u are but what am i?

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
​

The above quote has no meaning to me without looking it up.

then perhaps you should look it up...google works well.

And it certianly has no meaning for the lurker looking for the truth who simply won't get involved here.

it should if they know their bible...or have an interest in this subject.
or are familiar with Eccl.
or are curious

they could see each other and talk to each other.
​

I think you need to read the stroy you're ta;lking about.

ok, but why? they could see and talk to each other.

good for it...lol.
ps. when you are replying to me, then you are focused specifically on my comments....
​

I regretfully have to inform you that isn't necessairly so.

​

were you addressing any one elses post, within mine/?

Personal responses here are looked down on.

well, there are limits and boundaries.

I've eve gotten in trouble for using the word you in a response to the person I was addressing. When I'm talking specifically and exclusively to you rest assured you'll know and understand.

oh...lol.
silly me, i thought since you were quoting my post, and addressing me,
that you were responding specifically and/or exclusively to me.
especially since most, if not all in this thread, disagree with my views on this subject.

you are making a mistake, and i am correcting you.
say thanks and move on.
​

can't whip me so tell me to leave my own thread. Get lost buddy.

i wasn't implying that you leave the thread,
but simply that you accept that you made an error
and that you should get over it.

i did...i presented you with the correct Strong's definition.

if you wish to also use a webster's, go for it.
if it is at odds witht he Strong's then look out.

Well I'll say this for you - You certianly have nerve responding to me after telling me to leave. You're a real gem.

again, you err.
but i do shine a bit....at least when the sun hits my head!

i have given it multiple times.


it means can, and that there is a possibility.

it does not mean won't.
​

So exactly how does it mean will which I covered in my response if you care to read it. BTW I'm just lazy and didn't bother to change the font size and bold.

​

it doesn't say will, because not EVERYONE will be...
but some will be, because it is a possibility, and not everyone is written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

​

maybe you should establish that it does not occure, since the verse , and more, clearly says that it does.
​

Where? Please show it. I've already discussed is able and can. You say that means does and did and will do. How is this?

no, i did not say that... that is another error of yours.

it is a possibility for all, but not a future reality for all.
but it will be a reality for some
that is why is able is used.

sure there is...

fearing God instead of man, because He is able to fully destroy (as the greek defines it) your soul in hell, is a pretty good proof IMO.
​

Once again I highlighted and bolded for you in a different color what the case is. It no where says does.

​

no where does it say "won't"...is able is a far cry from won't.

since the event in question has not happened yet, and it is a warning, the wording was used as it was.

I'm sorry I didn't realize the issue raised by the thread was a matter of when.

judgement day is after the Millennium...that is the when.
earlier, that was one of your mis-understandings of my position,
since my position is that no soul or spiritual body is destroyed until judgement day, more than 1000 years from now.

in this context, yes...because we are talking about the possibility of someone's very soul going to hell and what happens to the soul in hell. it is fully destroyed there, what ever that means.

I don't think that was the purpose of Jesus' statement at all.

i do.

 

[zeke37]

God will bring with him? Are you saying this means down from heaven?

not just me....
see Mat24:31, Mar13:27 to start. gathered elect from heaven.
see Rev5 for the elders,
Rev6 for the martyrs,
Rev12 for those in heaven rejoicing, when the accuser of their bretheren is cast down

Paul is stating that as like Jesus Rose from the dead, God will bring those who are in the graves the same way like Jesus was resurrected. Nothing more. Read onto V15 and 16.

Here is a nice link which answers your points:

Man and Mortality

na, but thanks for the link....i'll check it out.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Yo Sam,

The "spirit of man" is considered the individual entity or self which is contained in the body and soul of man (the issues that result from the operation of man's mind such as acts of will, thoughts, desires, emotions) BUT the spirit that goes back to God is the spirit God gives as it says "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

See, I believe that when God breathed into Adam and he bacame a living soul; he received God's spirit also. Adam, before he sinned was perfect and had a perfect relationship with God just as now we have the opportunity through Christ to have that same relationship with God's spirit "breathed within us" through the new birth. That is what died in the day Adam ate of the tree of good and evil.

Genesis 7:17-24(NKJV)
17Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22All in whose nostrils was the breath (Septuagint and Vulgate omit of the spirit.)of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

all flesh have the "breath of life", which includes both man and beast.

does this mean that the animals have God's spirit?

 

[from scratch]

it should if they know their bible...or have an interest in this subject.

or are familiar with Eccl.
or are curious

Many are curious and aren't familar with their Bibles and have no idea where to look or know where to find resources to help them with their questions. Sadly they aren't getting this from their fellowship. There are other who lurk here that are investigating Christianity.

ok, but why? they could see and talk to each other.

Who was the rich man talikng to?

 

[from scratch]

Genesis 7:17-24(NKJV)
17Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22All in whose nostrils was the breath (Septuagint and Vulgate omit of the spirit.)of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

all flesh have the "breath of life", which includes both man and beast.

does this mean that the animals have God's spirit?

Are you asking or rhetorically telling?

 

[from scratch]

it doesn't matter what you see in Luke 16. The story is easily followed.
two men died.
they both went somewhere.
Abraham who had died a while before, was there as well.
they could talk to and see each other.

But they obviously aren't in the same place. Which should be obvious because of the rich man's request to send Lazarus. And the rich man isn't talking to Lazarus either.

 

[zeke37]

Many are curious and aren't familar with their Bibles and have no idea where to look or know where to find resources to help them with their questions. Sadly they aren't getting this from their fellowship. There are other who lurk here that are investigating Christianity.

i agree.

Who was the rich man talikng to?

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
​

 

[zeke37]

But they obviously aren't in the same place.

same plane of existance, a they can see and communicate with each other.

Which should be obvious because of the rich man's request to send Lazarus.

on the same plane...not that he could go...

And the rich man isn't talking to Lazarus either.

ya, i know.

 

[from scratch]

[/color]
same plane of existance, a they can see and communicate with each other.


on the same plane...not that he could go...


ya, i know.

I need proof that this is so. The rich man could have asked Lazarus directly instead of Abraham or the figure represented by the use of Abraham.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yo Sam,

The "spirit of man" is considered the individual entity or self which is contained in the body and soul of man (the issues that result from the operation of man's mind such as acts of will, thoughts, desires, emotions) BUT the spirit that goes back to God is the spirit God gives as it says "the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

See, I believe that when God breathed into Adam and he bacame a living soul; he received God's spirit also. Adam, before he sinned was perfect and had a perfect relationship with God just as now we have the opportunity through Christ to have that same relationship with God's spirit "breathed within us" through the new birth. That is what died in the day Adam ate of the tree of good and evil.

Patience,
thanks for your reply... I see where you are coming from now...okay...

Unfortunately, that is not what the Bible says...

I think most forget or negate the fact that Adam had to choose from either the "tree of life" (eternal life) and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (good and sin)... Remember he was cast out of the garden so that he then could not take of the "tree of life"...Had God allowed Adam to take of the tree of life after taking of the tree with knowledge, Adam would have been immortal (can not die)...Adam took of the "tree (you know which one) and he received the death penalty, subsequently so did everyone after him. Heb 9:27 "as it is appointed unto men once to die"...this is what passed from Adam to all men after him...simply death...Adam did not have the spirit of God...

As for the spirit in man, this is addressed in several locations in God's Word...1 Cor 2:11 "For what things knoweth the things of a man, except for the spirit of man which is in him?" Man does have a spirit, but it is not an immortal spirit...the spirit of man returns to God at his death...(a natural man (Bin Laden) or a begotten son, such as Peter...mans spirit is God's record of the man in which he will use at a latter date to resurrect that individual...(resurrection to immortality or up in the flesh it matters not at the present conversation)...the spirit in man gives man knowledge or intellect see 1 Cor 2:11 again...a dog, cat or giraffe (any animal) has not this spirit...animals have no spirit...they have not the ability to reason, to speak, to love, to do math, to do music...they are just animals, temporary and will see no resurrection or immortality whatsoever...

All humans have "man's spirit" but not all men have God's spirit, we must remember that in our studies...Eccl 3.20-21 "all go unto one place, and all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again...21 who knows the spirit of man which goes upward and the spirit of the beast which goes downward." Eccl 12:7 "then shall the dust return the the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it." It is man's spirit that returns to God...but it is not an immortal spirit!!!

What about the soul...Gen 2:7 states "God breath into man the breath of life (air) and man became a living soul" what about "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezek 18.20
The soul can die! That is what God says! Look at Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward, the memory of them is forgotten...cont v6 "also their love, and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more portion for ever in anything that is done under the son." Wow! How straight forward is that? Man dies is what your bible says!!! Most believe just the opposite, most think the dead are off on a cloud playing a harp or just sitting around with nothing to do! But that is contrary to what the bible actually says!

Look closely at what David said, Ps 88.10-12 "Shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah...Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? of thy faithfulness in destruction?...shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" David knew that he would return to the dust and he would not be able to praise God during that time. Wow! Where is David today? Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren let me speak freely unto you of the patriarch David, he is both dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us today...Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended unto heaven.." Heb 11:39-40 should make it crystal clear " And all these having obtained a good report, received not the promise...God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

There is a time for a resurrection and the resurrection is the hope of the true Christian...Pls read 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4...Read Rev 19 and 20 All these and many, many others gives us God's record or plan which He will fulfill.

Look forward to hearing from you...Y

 

[from scratch]

Patience,
thanks for your reply... I see where you are coming from now...okay...

Unfortunately, that is not what the Bible says...

I think most forget or negate the fact that Adam had to choose from either the "tree of life" (eternal life) and the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (good and sin)... Remember he was cast out of the garden so that he then could not take of the "tree of life"...Had God allowed Adam to take of the tree of life after taking of the tree with knowledge, Adam would have been immortal (can not die)...Adam took of the "tree (you know which one) and he received the death penalty, subsequently so did everyone after him. Heb 9:27 "as it is appointed unto men once to die"...this is what passed from Adam to all men after him...simply death...Adam did not have the spirit of God...

As for the spirit in man, this is addressed in several locations in God's Word...1 Cor 2:11 "For what things knoweth the things of a man, except for the spirit of man which is in him?" Man does have a spirit, but it is not an immortal spirit...the spirit of man returns to God at his death...(a natural man (Bin Laden) or a begotten son, such as Peter...mans spirit is God's record of the man in which he will use at a latter date to resurrect that individual...(resurrection to immortality or up in the flesh it matters not at the present conversation)...the spirit in man gives man knowledge or intellect see 1 Cor 2:11 again...a dog, cat or giraffe (any animal) has not this spirit...animals have no spirit...they have not the ability to reason, to speak, to love, to do math, to do music...they are just animals, temporary and will see no resurrection or immortality whatsoever...

All humans have "man's spirit" but not all men have God's spirit, we must remember that in our studies...Eccl 3.20-21 "all go unto one place, and all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again...21 who knows the spirit of man which goes upward and the spirit of the beast which goes downward." Eccl 12:7 "then shall the dust return the the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it." It is man's spirit that returns to God...but it is not an immortal spirit!!!

What about the soul...Gen 2:7 states "God breath into man the breath of life (air) and man became a living soul" what about "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezek 18.20
The soul can die! That is what God says! Look at Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward, the memory of them is forgotten...cont v6 "also their love, and their hatred and their envy is now perished; neither have they any more portion for ever in anything that is done under the son." Wow! How straight forward is that? Man dies is what your bible says!!! Most believe just the opposite, most think the dead are off on a cloud playing a harp or just sitting around with nothing to do! But that is contrary to what the bible actually says!

Look closely at what David said, Ps 88.10-12 "Shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah...Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? of thy faithfulness in destruction?...shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" David knew that he would return to the dust and he would not be able to praise God during that time. Wow! Where is David today? Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren let me speak freely unto you of the patriarch David, he is both dead and buried and his sepulcher is with us today...Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended unto heaven.." Heb 11:39-40 should make it crystal clear " And all these having obtained a good report, received not the promise...God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

There is a time for a resurrection and the resurrection is the hope of the true Christian...Pls read 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4...Read Rev 19 and 20 All these and many, many others gives us God's record or plan which He will fulfill.

Look forward to hearing from you...Y

Yer a tad over stated there mate.

 

[James 75]

Interesting that anyone could even not understand death. NTL there is more than one kind of death. The human can die twice. How is this? The scripture speaks clearly about a sceond death.

It is interesting that one could not understand death after seeing
a dead rabbit laying on the road.
The only way there can be a second death, which there is, is there has to be a resurrection between the two.
God can do that, ya know.
It's all explained in the scriptures.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Yer a tad over stated there mate.

looking at some of yours and zekes' post, i dont think so...

 

[YosemiteSam]

I need proof that this is so. The rich man could have asked Lazarus directly instead of Abraham or the figure represented by the use of Abraham.

No he couldn't have!

 

[Mikecpking]

So many people believe that the story of the rich man and Lararus is a literal story and is teaching about the afterlife. It is one of a series of 5 parables and it definately not literal. Judaism (certain parts) had already have been influenced by Greek and Babylonian philosophy (see Jewish encyclopedia), that ideas like the immortality of the soul became strangely blended. That is one of the reasons the Apocrypha is not part of the Protestant bible!

 

[from scratch]

So many people believe that the story of the rich man and Lararus is a literal story and is teaching about the afterlife. It is one of a series of 5 parables and it definately not literal. Judaism (certain parts) had already have been influenced by Greek and Babylonian philosophy (see Jewish encyclopedia), that ideas like the immortality of the soul became strangely blended. That is one of the reasons the Apocrypha is not part of the Protestant bible!

So what are you saying here? It seems as though many here suggest even the metion of something means that is what is being taught. So are you saying that Jesus taught pagan theology or from it? I find that idea rather strange for God to engage in. Jesus said and did what His Father told Him to do.

Even if it was from pagan sources did Jesus say it to make a point? Is or was that point about the truth? Why is this God inspirited story in the Scripture? Or are you trying to say the Scripture isn't inspired by God? God can not lie. If God lies, can He be believed about anything?

I'm sorry but I just don't understand Christians trying to discredit the Scripture.

 

[Mikecpking]

So what are you saying here? It seems as though many here suggest even the metion of something means that is what is being taught. So are you saying that Jesus taught pagan theology or from it? I find that idea rather strange for God to engage in. Jesus said and did what His Father told Him to do.

Even if it was from pagan sources did Jesus say it to make a point? Is or was that point about the truth? Why is this God inspirited story in the Scripture? Or are you trying to say the Scripture isn't inspired by God? God can not lie. If God lies, can He be believed about anything?

I'm sorry but I just don't understand Christians trying to discredit the Scripture.

Its not a discrediting of scripture, Jesus was using the Pharisees own teaching against them.

Show me elsewhere in scripture the dead going to Abraham's bosom.