Theistic Evolution?

[Grumpy Old Man]

Do apes have souls?

Does anything have a soul? Souls have not been observed scientifically, or medically, at all. In fact, as far as medical science can tell, our brains contain everything needed to make us think, move, feel, etc. Whenever we think, or feel, this can be observed as electrical impulses in the brain. If we have an immaterial soul, such a thing has not been observed (yet) to be acting on or in our brains.

Also, if souls exist, then you have to remember that humans are quite recent (I'm presuming that since your in this thread you believe in, or at least understand evolution). We actually have several distant (now extinct) relatives of the genus Homo, such as Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis. Recent studies have shown that our ancestors once interbred with Neanderthals. Anyway, if you believe in evolution (as a theist) then you have to ask, instead of whether apes have souls, but when our own species started having souls? Did homo erectus have a soul? Did the Neanderthals? Or even as far back as Australopithecus?

This is the problem I have with theistic evolution. When did God start interfering in "human" matter and why? Why didn't he bother with our more primitive ancestors? Which of our ancestors started having souls?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I generally regard the soul to not be a "ghost" like thing, ethereal with a kind of spiritual "stuff", residing in the body. I think that's too Platonic.

I regard "soul" as effectively meaning the breath of life, it's our animal-ness; that quality that distinguishes a living thing from a corpse or carcass. I don't think it's unfair to say that non-human animals have a soul.

I have no problem with the notion of apes having a soul, since they are living, breathing animals.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Robban]

I generally regard the soul to not be a "ghost" like thing, ethereal with a kind of spiritual "stuff", residing in the body. I think that's too Platonic.

I regard "soul" as effectively meaning the breath of life, it's our animal-ness; that quality that distinguishes a living thing from a corpse or carcass. I don't think it's unfair to say that non-human animals have a soul.

I have no problem with the notion of apes having a soul, since they are living, breathing animals.

-CryptoLutheran

Don,t wish to get involved in any way, don,t even know if it is correct to attached to your post, so please don,t think I argueing in any way.
A thought popped up while reading a few posts here.
Is it possible for an ape to be a blood donor to a human?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Aristotle defined the soul as the entelechy of a natural body having life potentially within it. So, yes, apes, having the capacity for life and actualizing ape nature, have souls.

"Humans, I'm not so sure about."


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Montalban]

Does anything have a soul?

It was a question between two who already agree that souls exist

 

[Montalban]

In the Baha'i view, no.

Animals don't go on to the Next Life; humans do.

Peace,

Bruce

Then do you believe that your god just picked a group of ape-like beings/human-like apes and infused them with a soul? Or, did we evolve souls?

I only ask because you seemed to suggest that you believe your god only kicked off evolution and then stepped back.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Then do you believe that your god just picked a group of ape-like beings/human-like apes and infused them with a soul? Or, did we evolve souls?

I only ask because you seemed to suggest that you believe your god only kicked off evolution and then stepped back.

This could be an interesting discussion indeed, provided that you specified what you mean when you say "soul".

 

[Montalban]

This could be an interesting discussion indeed, provided that you specified what you mean when you say "soul".

I simply wished to ask someone else who might have a similar idea - to promote them to think about when they think God re-intervened in creation.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I simply wished to ask someone else who might have a similar idea - to promote them to think about when they think God re-intervened in creation.

Regardless, I'd like to know what you believe the soul to be: the life-force or "breath of life"? Our individual consciousness/self-awareness? Our ability to reason? Our capacity to think in abstracts?

What exactly is it that you think of as a fundamental, essential separation between us and the rest of the animal kingdom?

 

[GuardianShua]

Regardless, I'd like to know what you believe the soul to be: the life-force or "breath of life"? Our individual consciousness/self-awareness? Our ability to reason? Our capacity to think in abstracts?

What exactly is it that you think of as a fundamental, essential separation between us and the rest of the animal kingdom?

The word spirit can mean person, place, or thing. It means the nature of that. A soul without a spirit is a dead body. The word wind or breath is often used to mean spirit.

 

[Montalban]

Regardless, I'd like to know what you believe the soul to be: the life-force or "breath of life"? Our individual consciousness/self-awareness? Our ability to reason? Our capacity to think in abstracts?

What exactly is it that you think of as a fundamental, essential separation between us and the rest of the animal kingdom?

A soul connects us to God

 

[BruceDLimber]

Then do you believe that your god just picked a group of ape-like beings/human-like apes and infused them with a soul? Or, did we evolve souls?

Humans have always had souls. While they may have had different shapes in the past (resembling apes at one time, for example), they have always been distinct in their spiritual attributes.

I only ask because you seemed to suggest that you believe your god only kicked off evolution and then stepped back.

Not really, no.

In what Baha'is call "Progressive Revelation," God has continually sent Divine Messengers to renew religion and guide humanity--and this process will never end.

It is true, though, that God doesn't necessarily involve Himself in every detail of everyone's day-to-day life: this is because He gave us free will, and allows us the opportunity to exercise it.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

A soul connects us to God

That tells me what a soul does, but not what it is supposed to be. What quality defines it? Which traits does it possess? What specific aspect of our nature indicates that we possess (or are) such a thing as a soul?
Spirituality? Abstract thought? Transpersonal states of consciousness ("mystical union")?

 

[razeontherock]

If I may, the soul comes into being as a by-product of our body encountering a spirit.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This rendition indicates that our soul can be influenced by the spiritual realm, on an ongoing basis. I adhere to that not because I think I can divine the meaning of the text, but because this is how the world works. (Plus it lines up with the rest of the Bible)

 

[Montalban]

Humans have always had souls. While they may have had different shapes in the past (resembling apes at one time, for example), they have always been distinct in their spiritual attributes.

So when we were unicellular life in the primordial soup we had a soul?

 

[Montalban]

That tells me what a soul does, but not what it is supposed to be. What quality defines it? Which traits does it possess? What specific aspect of our nature indicates that we possess (or are) such a thing as a soul?
Spirituality? Abstract thought? Transpersonal states of consciousness ("mystical union")?

That's what it is; that which is within us that connects us to God.

That's about as much detail as I can give

 

[LOCO]

That tells me what a soul does, but not what it is supposed to be. What quality defines it? Which traits does it possess? What specific aspect of our nature indicates that we possess (or are) such a thing as a soul?
Spirituality? Abstract thought? Transpersonal states of consciousness ("mystical union")?

The soul is non-corporeal. This means that it is not physical. To speak of it being made of something is to speak of it as somehow physical. Speaking of it in terms of energy is still corporeal. Energy can be measured. One cannot measure the soul.

The Catholic notion of the soul aligns closely with the Jungian concepts of the 'unconscious'.

If there existed no unconscious, then people would know only conscious notions, and would appear like programmed robots, i.e. they would be soulless creatures...which is curiously much like what we see in todays world of materialism and celebrity worship.

The unconscious represents a big moral problem for Christians. It contains both evil and good, both subhuman content and content of spiritual nature. The Holy Spirit can manifest via the unconscious, and can be said secretly to reside in there. It is therefore risky business to speak disparagingly about the unconscious, I suppose. One can speak disparagingly about the pope, but one should take care not to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, because it is living spirit.

Blessings

 

[BruceDLimber]

So when we were unicellular life in the primordial soup we had a soul?

Correct.

Physical shape has nothing to do with it.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Montalban]

Physical shape has nothing to do with it.

Whilst I believe it's possible - given I believe an un-born baby has a soul, what you're saying is that even when we were say some primitive aquatic being we had souls making us different from all other primitive aquatic beings?

 

[crimsonleaf]

A theistic evolutionist is someone who believes in evolution but with God acting in intervention, producing this sort of thing, which seems too perfect for natural selection alone: