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Mysteries in Revelation: what I don't understand.

zeke37

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1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Jesus teaches differently.
 
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eclipsenow

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to understand Revelation. There's enough in the gospels and Apostles letters to arrive at an understanding of the end times.

Absolutely!

I take it from the rest of the New Testament that:

1. We don't know when the Lord will return
2. When he returns it is going to be BIG: Judgement Day, the judgement of sin and the devil and all God's enemies, the end of death, and us resurrected into our new physical bodies fit for the New Heavens and the New Earth.
3. I personally am convinced that the Lord really could return in 5 seconds.
4. This is because I don't see any need for a one world government or Anti-Christ figure or any final 'timetable' to be fulfilled. The Anti-Christ language seems to be figurative of the evil in the human heart and the evil drum beat of society, and that we should avoid siding with the natural, evil disposition of our culture as it is ultimately inspired by Satan. I read the Anti-Christ as figurative because other parts of scripture clearly teach us there are 'many' Anti-Christ's out in the world, teaching heresy and sending the gullible merrily on their way to hell.

The Lord's return is simple. We don't know when, it could happen sooner or later, but when it does, it's the end of this stage of human history. So continue with your gospel work Christian! And avoid any of those "Left Behind" books. It's B-Grade writing anyway!
 
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Douggg

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4. This is because I don't see any need for a one world government or Anti-Christ figure or any final 'timetable' to be fulfilled. The Anti-Christ language seems to be figurative of the evil in the human heart and the evil drum beat of society, and that we should avoid siding with the natural, evil disposition of our culture as it is ultimately inspired by Satan. I read the Anti-Christ as figurative because other parts of scripture clearly teach us there are 'many' Anti-Christ's out in the world, teaching heresy and sending the gullible merrily on their way to hell.

The spirit of iniquity and the spirit of Antichrist that was already at work in John and Paul's day was that Jesus was not the messiah. The Antichrist is one person, that's why John made the comparison that there were already many antichrists in the world in his day.

Start in Luke 24.

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Okay, that was the first time the disciples understood that God's prime mission for the Messiah was to be a save-us-from-our- sins Messiah. Up to that point everyone was expecting the messiah to be a special anointed king of Israel, King Messiah. The Jews still believe that today. And that is who they are looking for.

John 5: 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The Jews rejected Jesus as King Messiah (remember no-one understood that God's secret plan was that the messiah would be a save-us-from-our-sins messiah). Another (person) coming in his own name, the Jews will receive - as King Messiah.

In Daniel 9:27, the prince who shall come will confirm the covenant with many. Keep in mind in Daniel 9, it prophesied the arrival of Jesus as King Messiah (that final passover week). And his being cutoff (4 days later he was crucified). The prince who shall come is the "another coming in his own name" that Jesus prophesied the Jews will accept as their "King Messiah".

The false "King Messiah" will confirm the covenant for seven years - the identification of the covenant and the 7 years confirmation that goes with it is in another part of the bible. In Deuteronomy 31:10-11, Moses made a requirement that every 7 years, his instructions to that second generation to go in and possess the land would be read to the congregation of Israel. Thus confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant.

That's why it says "for seven years" and not a seven year covenant in Daniel 9:27. The Jews have not had control of the temple mount for religious purposes. So the reading has not been done as Moses instructed because the reading has to be done from the place of God's choosing, which the Jews believe to be the temple mount.

So that is where the 7 years comes from. The Antichrist man will be the false King Messiah, who will oversee the reading of Moses instructions, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, from the temple mount.

Verification of the 7 years:

We go to Revelation 12. In Revelation 12, there is the vision of dragon having seven heads with seven crowns. The Antichrist man is the seventh king of Revelation 17. He will rule for a short time.

In Revelation 13, none of the seven heads have crowns, and one head is mortally wounded. Time left in the 7 years is 42 months. The Antichrist man, false King Messiah, has gone into the temple and claims to be God, stopping the daily sacrifices, breaking the covenant in the middle of the week.... and revealing himself as the man of sin. For that action, the Antichrist man is killed. He is the mortally wounded head.

Going back to Revelation 12. Again, the vision of the dragon has seven heads with seven crowns. In Revelation 12, the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17 has been fullfilled, with the 7 years in the text of Revelation 12. The Antichrist man, the last of the 7 kings, has come to power, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for Moses' seven years.

Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days (the first half) + Revelation 12:14, the time, times, and half times (the second half) together total the seven years.

9And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

So the prince who shall come, the false King Messiah that Jesus prophesied to Nicodemus, coming in his own name - that is, he will eventually declare that he is God - confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant by having Moses's instructions to go in and possess the land read to the congregation of Israel on the temple mount, resetting the 7 year interval.

There is not 3 1/2 years, expressed as such, in bible prophecy. There are nominal equivalents of 42 months, 1260 days, and a time, times, and half times. The events are structured, either in the first half or second half, according to the time frame expression.

the first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, 12:6

the second half

42 months - Revelation 11:2, 13:5
time, times, half times - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, 12:7
 
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eclipsenow

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Sorry Dougg,
I'll try and follow your argument if you quote the NIV or ESV or anything but an old be-spake version. As it is, I just refuse to try following an abstract discussion about the KJV.
 
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eclipsenow

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So that is where the 7 years comes from. The Antichrist man will be the false King Messiah, who will oversee the reading of Moses instructions, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, from the temple mount.

Not at all. The 'Anti-Christ' will do no such thing. There is no 'Anti-Christ' figure specifically prophesied to do anything. The whole OT points towards Jesus and the whole NT points back to the gospel hope in Jesus amazing death and resurrection. Revelation just reviews the gospel with the themes of suffering for John's generation, and through that to all generations. There's no 'timetable' there, none at all. "Man of Lawlessness" writings are metaphorical; about resisting worldliness and the temptations to run according to the 'beat' of society. The image of the man of lawlessness is one that will be exposed, the way all evil will be. So don't be evil.

Revelation is the gospel, pure and simple, with the themes of suffering and natural disasters and persecution that will go around and around as long as these end times last. There's no timetable; no literal Anti-Christ; no special 'end times'. We're in it, and have been for 2000 years. "There will be wars and rumours of wars and earthquakes and famines and hardships..."

That about sums up the last 2000 years of human history doesn't it?
 
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dfw69

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hi doug...yes i agree....and i like to add.....israel does not await the return of jesus for they rejected him as messiah....they could not accept that god begat a son... being equal to god... such a claim is blasphemy ....

israel still await the coming of the messiah....their messiah is God....the coming of alpha and omega.....the lord God is the only savior and messiah they know.....

and some call him Yah....which is the name of the lord.....or yahuah (yhwh).......google yahuah for those that dont know...peace
 
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Douggg

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The whole OT points towards Jesus and the whole NT points back to the gospel hope in Jesus amazing death and resurrection.

Hi eclipsenow, do you know "why" you are able to make that statement?

It is because the disciples went out and preached Jesus being in the ot (Tanach). And their teachings have been passed down generation to generation.

And the only reason the disicples knew - was because AFTER the resurrection, Jesus opened their understanding of the scriptures. That's why I wrote to start in Luke 24 first.

Here it is again, this time in the NIV which I don't go by, but you apparently do.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” (the Jews use an acronym called the "Tanach" to represent the Law, the prophets, and the writings, fyi)


45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Before the disciples understood that the messiah would die and be resurrected as God's plan to save man from sins - they and everyone else believed the messiah to be "King Messiah", a different concept that has nothing to do with salvation from our sins. The Jews hold to the "King Messiah" concept. They reject the save-us-from our sins messiah concept, and Jesus who saves us from our sins. They view Jesus as a failed "King Messiah", so they are looking for someone else other than Jesus. Jesus will not fulfill all the "King Messiah" prophesies until he returns.

Doug
 
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Douggg

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hi doug...yes i agree....and i like to add.....israel does not await the return of jesus for they rejected him as messiah....they could not accept that god begat a son... being equal to god... such a claim is blasphemy ....

israel still await the coming of the messiah....their messiah is God....the coming of alpha and omega.....the lord God is the only savior and messiah they know.....

and some call him Yah....which is the name of the lord.....or yahuah (yhwh).......google yahuah for those that dont know...peace

Hi dfw69, thanks.

The Jews are awaiting a messiah - which to them is a special anointed... "King Messiah". The hebrew word for messiah is "anointed".

The Jews currently don't believe in a savior messiah. They do believe that God is their only Savior - but not in the context of being a savior messiah.

For example, they believe that God is their Savior from their enemies.

King Messiah, on the other hand, in the Jews' belief, is that he will be purely human, and in no way deity. Which is why they rejected Jesus back in the day of the Pharisees.

Doug
 
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dfw69

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yes amen doug....

if a false messiah comes and claims to be the God of Israel....how will Israel know the difference?...the false messiah comes with all the power of satan....wonders and lying miracle....tricks and deceptions magic sorcery....perhaps using technology to deceive.......it will be a great deception....like the moon landings were...lol...we never went to the moon...just a great hoax....well anyway
 
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eclipsenow

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yes amen doug....

if a false messiah comes and claims to be the God of Israel....how will Israel know the difference?...the false messiah comes with all the power of satan....wonders and lying miracle....tricks and deceptions magic sorcery....perhaps using technology to deceive.......it will be a great deception....like the moon landings were...lol...we never went to the moon...just a great hoax....well anyway

?

OK, this thread has just lost all meaning for me. What I really want to know is whether or not the Anti-Christ will wear Blue Suade Shoes. I could only be tempted to follow him if He did that. If he does that, then I'm in REAL trouble. :bow::bow::bow:

;)
 
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dfw69

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sorry eclipsnow....lol...i once saw an airing of the moon landing hoax conspiracy....and i beleive it to be possibly true.....

whats the obsession with blue suade shoes?...lol....maybe stacy adams...
 
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eclipsenow

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sorry eclipsnow....lol...i once saw an airing of the moon landing hoax conspiracy....and i beleive it to be possibly true.....

whats the obsession with blue suade shoes?...lol....maybe stacy adams...

I was being a little sarcastic about the whole obsession with 'spot the Anti-Christ'. Sometimes I think all the comparisons with world political figures should be put in a huge barrel and all the Revelation Futurists should agree to stick to the one figure that is drawn. Then you can all agree on who the Anti-Christ really is (while ignoring John stating that ANYONE who disagrees that Jesus is Lord is an Anti-Christ).
 
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dfw69

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yes anyone who disagrees that Jesus is lord is an anti christ.....and now we know the spirit of an antichrist......but the final antichrist will be a ruler....the little horn.....the man of sin the son of perdition........the rider of the white horse .....the beast of Rev...all speak of him....
 
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Old Seer

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?

OK, this thread has just lost all meaning for me. What I really want to know is whether or not the Anti-Christ will wear Blue Suade Shoes. I could only be tempted to follow him if He did that. If he does that, then I'm in REAL trouble. :bow::bow::bow:

;)
False Messiahs doesn't mean as stated. It happens after JC returns. The return is new knowledge that arrives previously unknown showing that there was a misunderstanding of what Christianity is. The coming is a reinstatement of Christianity to it's proper form, as it was lost about 50 AD. Once that truth is known after awhile there will be those to counter it with false teachings causing a falling away for many to return the the previous of what they were. That is to say-- they fall away from
Christianity. Christianity is merely one's own human side. The world operates on the animal side.
 
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eclipsenow

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False Messiahs doesn't mean as stated. It happens after JC returns. The return is new knowledge that arrives previously unknown showing that there was a misunderstanding of what Christianity is. The coming is a reinstatement of Christianity to it's proper form, as it was lost about 50 AD. Once that truth is known after awhile there will be those to counter it with false teachings causing a falling away for many to return the the previous of what they were. That is to say-- they fall away from
Christianity. Christianity is merely one's own human side. The world operates on the animal side.

No, that won't do at all. That's a direct attack on the trustworthiness of the Scriptures and it would not stand under close historical scrutiny or biblical revelation. You sound close to forming your own cult!
 
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earagun

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sorry eclipsnow....lol...i once saw an airing of the moon landing hoax conspiracy....and i beleive it to be possibly true.....

whats the obsession with blue suade shoes?...lol....maybe stacy adams...
I think there was an atmosphere of make it or fake it with the original moon landing, but I think they did finally get there and discovered it was home to some fallen angels, which is why we haven't made any more efforts to build a space station on the moon, or maybe we have? I think our government will believe whatever any demon tells them
 
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dfw69

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I think there was an atmosphere of make it or fake it with the original moon landing, but I think they did finally get there and discovered it was home to some fallen angels, which is why we haven't made any more efforts to build a space station on the moon, or maybe we have? I think our government will believe whatever any demon tells them

i seriouly doubt we ever landed on the moon...or that fallen angels were ever seen on the moon......

i dont believe in ufo or aliens.....they simply dont exist...but many people do believe in aliens...thanks to hoax by governments.....and technology ....for what purpose is beyond me?

maybe to create fear or just for revenue purposes.....but its a fear tactic

but i believe man will use technology to hoax more future events to come...perhaps even faking an alien invasion ......or conjure up some demons and ghosts.....imitating evil and good spirits.....using hologram technology....a deceptive world approaches us

if so.....then it makes sense why God in the future will actually unleash demons from the bottomless pit to torment men 5 months....and it makes sense why God will send the 4 fallen angels leading the 200,000,000 demons to kill with smoke fire and sulfur .......they will reap what they sowed......peace
 
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