The saving value of good works

[Starlight11]

Explain to me what works have to be done to obtain salvation.

The requirement is love, which New Testament writers repeatedly hold up as the important thing.

Jesus taught his disciples that the two greatest commandments are those which instructed them to love God and to love one’s neighbour (Matt 22:37-39; Mark 12:30-33; Luke 10:27). Paul repeated three times in as many sentences that showing love fulfils God’s requirements (Rom 13:8-10). Paul exhorts: “Above all, clothe yourselves with love” (Col 3:14). James calls the command to love your neighbour “the royal law” (Jas 2:8). Peter writes: “above all, maintain constant love for one another” (1 Pet 4:8). John sums up the Christian message in one sentence: “This is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another” (1 John 3:11). In John’s view, those who love people in the way Jesus loved can expect a positive final judgment: "God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgement, because as he is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:16-17). Paul reminds us that love is more important than faith: “And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love” (1 Cor 13:13). There are certainly many more exhortations in the New Testament to have love than there are to have faith.

The concept of loving others is a general idea which can be expressed concretely in many different ways. Loving others can mean having concern for the poor and suffering (Matthew 25:35-36). It can mean giving equal status to the poor as to the rich (James 2). It can mean ensuring your parents have enough to survive on in their old age (Mark 7:11-13). In general, how love is expressed depends extensively on your situation, and so for the most part the biblical authors can only provide generalities. They encourage love, and various similar characteristics: doing good, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, self-control, mercy etc.

 

[heymikey80]

T'me, I think some reflection would get at the core issues here, that I think may well allow us to agree in some sense. Not that we'll agree on everything or every mechanism involved, I'm not saying that. But I do think there's a lot more agreement than it first appears.

The requirement is love, which New Testament writers repeatedly hold up as the important thing.

Does Scripture represent this love as prerequisite, or is it a result of God's love?

Works of grace and love. If we are members of His body, then surely we don't want to deny the power in His body.

If a Christian is hit by a bus before getting the opportunity to do these works of grace and love, is he then prevented from salvation? That is, what's prerequisite to salvation?

 

[Starlight11]

Does Scripture represent [our] love as prerequisite, or is it a result of God's love?

Both. Scripture says our love is a result of God's love and a prerequisite of us receiving a positive final judgment from God.

If a Christian is hit by a bus before getting the opportunity to do these works of grace and love, is he then prevented from salvation? That is, what's prerequisite to salvation?

In general, scripture speaks of the necessity of doing good works to receive a positive final judgment. Thus a very literalistic person might well argue that a person needs to actually do the good works and that a person prevented from doing them has not met the criteria. I would argue however, that what scripture is really concerned about is the attitude and character of a person's heart. Therefore I would argue that we have good reason to think that a loving person who never gets the opportunity for that love to express itself is not lost.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Starlight11. Jesus tells us short and straightforward in Matthew, chapter 22, verses 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus gives us the great importance of love. " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, Jesus died out of Love for us, and God wants loving children to live eternity with. Love is a Christian`s weapon to help us to become as God wants us to be. 1) Corinthians, chapter 13, verses 4-8, tells us what Love is: not only a feel-good factor, to love is also a " doing-word." Love also changes people, as well as all things evil and wrong.
Let us start by treating all we know and all we meet, as we would love to be treated, friends or not friends. God will see our sincere efforts, and God will know that we love Him because we follow His Commandments to love and care, and also love our neighbour as ourselves. Jesus will give us his Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love, also. In a short while we will change into more loving and caring men and women. Jesus told us to: " ask and ye will receive," and then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us.
We will stumble and fail often, but we will get up and carry on becoming as God wants us to: Loving children/sons and daughters, of our Worthy God, who is Love and who made us in His image. We ask for Forgiveness everytime we need it, and our Heaveny Father will forgive us, as we will forgive others. I say this with love, Starlight. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. All we say or do, or advocate or try to achieve, should be done or attempted, from selfless Love.

 

[fhansen]

A medieval Christian called John of the Cross pared it down to this:
At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.

And a more famous and earlier Christian, Augustine of Hippo, said this:
Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail.

And an even earlier Christian, St Paul of Tarsus, had this to say in 1 Cor 13:2:
…if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.


And this is why the greatest commandments are what they are-to love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves-because “love fulfills the Law” , also according to Paul in Rom 13:8.

The only reason we could have for finding a way to resist such commands as these is not that we can’t possibly obey them-it’s either because we don’t want to obey them-echoing the rebelliousness of Adam & Eve-or we think we can’t, which means we’re not trusting God, for whom nothing is impossible, to fulfill the New Covenant promises in Jer 31:

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

 

[Rick Otto]

Both. Scripture says our love is a result of God's love and a prerequisite of us receiving a positive final judgment from God.

In general, scripture speaks of the necessity of doing good works to receive a positive final judgment. Thus a very literalistic person might well argue that a person needs to actually do the good works and that a person prevented from doing them has not met the criteria. I would argue however, that what scripture is really concerned about is the attitude and character of a person's heart. Therefore I would argue that we have good reason to think that a loving person who never gets the opportunity for that love to express itself is not lost.

Then he was saved sola fide - by faith alone which is not of ourselves.
Eph.2

1. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[MamaZ]

So are we to love with the love that a human can offer? Or are we to love with the Love of God? And can a non saved person have the Love of God shed abroad in their hearts by the HS?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Explain to me what works have to be done to obtain salvation.

Excellant question . I would like to have a laminated list of good works , their point values , and the total number of points that obtains salvation . I would keep track of the points and then relax when I hit the goal . I would then achieve the "once saved always saved" status that the good works option provides .

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Works are a natural product of saving faith. These works have been prepared in advance for us to do and we have been created in Christ to be a workman. Consequently, works are done from salvation not for salvation. Works apart from faith are like filthy rags. Any works that we do for salvation are works that we can boast about. Any works that we do for salvation is an attempt to "buy" grace, however, grace is unmerited and freely given.

Amen.


Two additional thoughts....

1. It's this simple: WHO is the Savior? If it's Jesus, then it's not me. That means that it's JESUS' works that save, not mine. IMO, Jesus is not just A Savior (like me) or an IMPOTENT Savior, unable to do the important part (and needs my help, being that I can do what God can't). Either we affirm that Jesus is the Savior - or the Savior is the one we all see in the mirror.


2. I think a LOT of wrong ideas come when we confuse Law and Gospel. In this case, justification and sanctification (both in the narrow sense). Yes - Jesus is THE Savior and yes, we are justified by His grace through the works of His Son which we embrace by faith (the gift of God). But that's not the end of the story, we then become called to GREAT things (read Matthew 5:48) - I'd especially reference the Great Commandment and Great Commission. Does the performance of such mean we are justified? No (it would need to be retroactive and would mean Jesus isn't the Savior) but is the performance of such thus optional? No (God's law is not His suggestion). Look, I was physically born because of my parents (and God). I had nothing to do with it. Almost immediately, I was called to greater things (maturity, responsibility, morality, etc.). Does my growing up make me more alive, more born? No. But is that growing up thus optional? No.





.

 

[heymikey80]

Both. Scripture says our love is a result of God's love and a prerequisite of us receiving a positive final judgment from God.

Scripture says that the inevitable result of being born of God is that we love. The lack of love is traced back to a lack of being born of God, and thus it's not the action, it's the source of the action, that is what's lacking.

In point of fact everyone fails when it comes to lacking love where we should have love (Mt 5:44-48). So if it's a requirement for salvation: we're all dead.

In general, scripture speaks of the necessity of doing good works to receive a positive final judgment. Thus a very literalistic person might well argue that a person needs to actually do the good works and that a person prevented from doing them has not met the criteria. I would argue however, that what scripture is really concerned about is the attitude and character of a person's heart. Therefore I would argue that we have good reason to think that a loving person who never gets the opportunity for that love to express itself is not lost.

Yes, I'd point directly at some of these passages to point out, there's a radical difference in the manner in which God's people are judged in comparison with a judgement of their works for salvation. Normally it's pretty clear once the passage itself is examined.

 

[Starlight11]

In point of fact everyone fails when it comes to lacking love where we should have love (Mt 5:44-48). So if it's a requirement for salvation: we're all dead.

Absolutely not. As I pointed out at length in the original post, a careful reading of scripture shows that scripture is very clear that humans be sufficiently righteous for salvation.

In Matthew 5, Jesus exhorts his followers to higher standards of behaviour. He points out to them how loving God is, and encourages them to imitate that. The genre of such passages is moral exhortation, and the point is to encourage others to reach a higher standard of moral behaviour. The thrust of such passages is always positive ("aim high") rather than negative ("this is impossible for you, you fall way short"). I find your interpretation of this passage to be untenable for this reason.

Yes, I'd point directly at some of these passages to point out, there's a radical difference in the manner in which God's people are judged in comparison with a judgement of their works for salvation. Normally it's pretty clear once the passage itself is examined.

On the contrary, the vast majority of references to the final judgment seem to concern the judgment of works for salvation, rather than the concept of rewards. The goal of a positive final judgment is repeatedly held out as a carrot by New Testament writers when exhorting their readers to do good.

 

[heymikey80]

Absolutely not. As I pointed out at length in the original post, a careful reading of scripture shows that scripture is very clear that humans be sufficiently righteous for salvation.

A cite would be necessary, including "works", "righteous", and if relevant to salvation, of course, "salvation" somewhere in the context. Something along the lines of ...

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." Rom 4:5-8

In Matthew 5, Jesus exhorts his followers to higher standards of behaviour. He points out to them how loving God is, and encourages them to imitate that. The genre of such passages is moral exhortation, and the point is to encourage others to reach a higher standard of moral behaviour. The thrust of such passages is always positive ("aim high") rather than negative ("this is impossible for you, you fall way short"). I find your interpretation of this passage to be untenable for this reason.

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt 5:18-20

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Mt 5:48

No one is good, except God alone. Mk 10:18

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. Jn 6:44

no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. Jn 6:65

On the contrary, the vast majority of references to the final judgment seem to concern the judgment of works for salvation, rather than the concept of rewards. The goal of a positive final judgment is repeatedly held out as a carrot by New Testament writers when exhorting their readers to do good.

Well good. Cite one and I'll take a look.

 

[Harry3142]

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution come because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 13:18-23,NIV)

Was it the seed that saved the man who produced a crop? No, it was the good soil that the seed was in that caused the resultant crop. It was necessary for the seed to unite with the good soil before any fruition could occur. In itself it was no different than the seed that fell on the path, in the rocky places, and among the thorns. It was only due to where it fell that it became vital and productive.

In the same way we must be 'planted' in the gospel, that message which tells us that we must be 'bonded' to God himself through our accepting the salvation that he himself has earned on our behalf before we can produce a crop fit for his kingdom (John 15:1-8). Without this bonding to him through accepting his salvation whatever works we might perform can at best be called caricatures of what God wants of us, and at worst can even be detrimental to the furtherance of his kingdom.

 

[MKJ]

But the fact is, however much the ability to merit an increase of grace (grace the thing given, not grace an increase in favor) is the result of God's grace at the beginning of the process, the Council of Trent still affirms the Thomistic position of meritum de condigno. You just can't deny that.

And however much you want to call it a strawman, the fact is that all acts of merit, whether congruo (condemned by Trent) or condigno (affirmed by Trent), involve at least a part of the act arising from within the individual.

If nothing arises from within the individual, then we have to deny free will, which would be quite an innovation.

I think the correct view is that something, a response to God, does come from within us, and the ability to do that, to have a space to make that choice and affirm love, is also God's gift to us.

We are able to really act, as opposed to being just tools of God, because he has given us a reality of our own. We are not pantheists, and although we know that whatever we have has its origins in God, we also think that he actually made a creation that was separate from himself.

I think this tendency to separate works and faith comes from a tendency to want to deny that God could create something other than himself. On the one hand it tends towards a pantheist view where we are nothing more that instruments of God's will; on the other it tends toward dualism because we separate the mind and it's faith from the body and its works or acts.

The idea that God could actually create beings that could make a free, willed response to him does not seem that far-out to me. To say God could not create such a thing is simply to put human limits on God.

If you want to claim that none of our acts can be free, I don't see how we can claim free will at all.

 

[Sieben]

so much theology...
simply said, christ said to repent and to believe in the gospel. john the baptist told us of what repentance was. we have to do that, because although we're saved though faith, you are required to bear fruit, good fruit even

 

[ivebeenshown]

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution come because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 13:18-23,NIV)

Was it the seed that saved the man who produced a crop? No, it was the good soil that the seed was in that caused the resultant crop. It was necessary for the seed to unite with the good soil before any fruition could occur. In itself it was no different than the seed that fell on the path, in the rocky places, and among the thorns. It was only due to where it fell that it became vital and productive.

Hmmm. I've always thought the seed was the gospel, and the places where it landed were the hearers. In that view, you would be saying the seed became vital and productive due to those who heard it.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Well good. Cite one and I'll take a look.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

so much theology...
simply said, christ said to repent and to believe in the gospel. john the baptist told us of what repentance was. we have to do that, because although we're saved though faith, you are required to bear fruit, good fruit even

Is theology a bad word now?

Christ, and Paul, both said far more than the above. The work of theology is (at the very least) to reconcile seeming divergences in their messages, dig for their assumptions, and tease out implications. That's precisely what the history of theology has been doing, albeit in very different ways.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Is theology a bad word now?

Christ, and Paul, both said far more than the above. The work of theology is (at the very least) to reconcile seeming divergences in their messages, dig for their assumptions, and tease out implications. That's precisely what the history of theology has been doing, albeit in very different ways.

Indeed...even as St. Paul says implies, we should eventually move from milk to solid food with regards to the understanding and living out of our faith.

 

[fhansen]

Well good. Cite one and I'll take a look.

Here are a couple more:

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3 :10-14

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matt 25:31-43