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Gxg (G²)

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Christians should keep the Law of God and understand the application of the law of Moses as seen in Yeshua, and as to how it applies to our life. .
Indeed.

Nevertheless, even Yeshua did NOT say that the Law of Moses was ever what the focus was to be in following after Him...and there are dozens of instances where that has been discussed before. The focus was relationship with Him, appreciating what was revealed in the Mosaic Code---but never focusing on it as if that was to always be the standard since the Lord came to renew things and give new ways. That cannot be avoided.
The One Law is the Law of God.. the other Torah portions written by Moses can be found given to Levites specifically, the earthly temple services, and prophetically valuable with the spring and fall feasts, healthy in diet and family relationships
Amen. I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on any of that (nor have they ever)--and you already know where I stand (as seen in #15 #56 and #67 ).
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59033471 said:
Indeed.

Nevertheless, even Yeshua did NOT say that the Law of Moses was ever what the focus was to be in following after Him...and there are dozens of instances where that has been discussed before. The focus was relationship with Him, appreciating what was revealed in the Mosaic Code---but never focusing on it as if that was to always be the standard since the Lord came to renew things and give new ways. That cannot be avoided.
Amen
Ohhh.. I agree... we are not in a theocracy.. although the very foundation of our laws still show the Judo-Christian faith... but that is getting rubbed out with every day that goes by with all this redefining going on.

Yeshua never said that the law of Moses was to be ignored either.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

You know it is like going to the library of congress to read all the laws of the land, and then some historian at the library comes by and explains the love and concern for the citizens of the country that caused this or that law to be made. This is like the Law of Moses it was given and is considered the letter of the law, but Yeshua went forth and explained the deeper purpose which is full of grace and truth.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Ohhh.. I agree... we are not in a theocracy.. although the very foundation of our laws still show the Judo-Christian faith... but that is getting rubbed out with every day that goes by with all this redefining going on.
.

I agree that many things within our culture show how we've had a Judo-Christian foundation, although I'd disagree in saying our nation was ever "CHRISTIAN" in the Biblical sense when examining all of the things that've happened throughout history which are simply without excuse--and inconsistent. When studying the history of Free-Masonry in our nation and seeing it everywhere, the issue of saying we need to have American return to "righteouenss" always seems to perplex me...and the same goes for many of the laws made that talked of "GOD" and "Christ" but were never applied the same way to all groups


Yeshua never said that the law of Moses was to be ignored either.


Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.



John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I agree, as the Lord always pointed to Himself whenever it came to the Law and noted how he was truly the fulfillment of the entire law. It was the Lord who was to be the interpreter of what was written previously---and how it'd play out later, whether it be the same or occurring in differing variations.
You know it is like going to the library of congress to read all the laws of the land, and then some historian at the library comes by and explains the love and concern for the citizens of the country that caused this or that law to be made. This is like the Law of Moses it was given and is considered the letter of the law, but Yeshua went forth and explained the deeper purpose which is full of grace and truth
Excellent analogy

I've always tended to see the Law of Moses through the eyes of Christ in the same way one would see the laws of the U.S if going to D.C. For there've been many developments within our nation's history.....and some things that've progressed. Whereas some things that changed NEEDED to do so due to their not being just (as with laws concerning slavery, for popular example), not all things that changed were a sign of something negative occurring previously. For something progressing doesn't mean what used to occur before is somehow bad. To say such would be no more logical than saying that the artwork or artifacts in a Museum such as Smithsonian National Musuem in Washington D.C are somehow "bad" because we don't use them as often anymore. They retain their status of "good" and are still appreciated as the foundation for other developments---but they are not what we still seek to operate in.

It's the same way with other things in life that others experience....and it can alter. For just as a change from something before doesn't mean that it was "bad" in the past, something being good from the past doesn't mean that it is automatically good in the present or that its always applicable to every setting. I'm reminded of curfews...as a 7:00pm curfew being beneficial for children at a certain age doesn't mean that it stops being considered as "good" when more freedoms are given for the children as they grow older. Some things remain constant, such as the fact that being responsible (the purpose behind curfew) and learning boundaries....even though a child looks back acknowleding the previous curfew was beneficial/can be learned from while the new/extended freedoms are ALSO good. But if the child is required to walk in the same way as they were when they were truly a child, then it'd be destructive---and you'd end up having grown up children in the house who are not able to function on their own even when they're being told by the parents to be "adults" while still being placed under things which were given for a season.

I'm reminded of what occurred with the religious leaders trying to trap Jesus by discussing the laws of Moses in regards to divorce ( Deuteronomy 24:2-4 / Deuteronomy 24 )---as they were focused on what Moses gave in the law and the Lord brought them back to the focus of how things were MEANT to be....and why laws were given ( Matthew 19:7-9 / Matthew 19, Mark 10:4-6/ Mark 10 ) Where they had actually glorifed one aspect of what Moses said, the Lord made clear that a specific law was never given because the Lord wanted others to walk in that for all time...but rather, it was given since the people were corrupt/wouldn't honor him and a system had to be given to restrain the damage that could be done to others when marriage wasn't upheld.

The same thing goes for laws made about polygamy, as the Law stated that a man could take another wife as long as he still provided for his first wife (Exo.21:10). And for others who had multiple wives:

  • Jacob married Leah and Rachel (Gen.29:23-30; 31:17; 32:22) and then he married Leah and Rachel's handmaids, Zilbah and Bilhahand (Genesis 30:1-24; 37:2)
  • Judge Gideon had many wives and a concubine (Judges 8:30-31)
  • Elkanah married Hannah and Peninnah (1 Sam.1:2)
  • David married Abigail and Ahinoam (1 Sam.25:42-43; 30:18), then later took more wives (2 Sam.5:13) at Jerusalem (1 Chron.14:3)
  • In 2 Sam.12:7-8, God gave David these multiple wives as a blessing, just as anointing him as king over Israel, protecting him from Saul, and giving him the house of Israel and Judah were also blessings from Him
  • Ashur married Helah and Naarah (1 Chron.4:5)
  • Shaharaim married Hushim and Baara (1 Chron.8:8)
  • Abijah had 14 wives (2 Chron.13:21)
  • Jehoiada the priest had 2 wives (2 Chron.24:3).
Many other examples besides that....but it is not necessarily the case that polygamay was something that ALL were to assume they were to support simply because Moses said something about it in the law---as the Lord Jesus again made clear that God's original intention was for ONE man and ONE Woman to become one.

For anyone to say that the Mosaic code is to be adhered to and yet say it was okay to marry multiple women in our time when in a Messianic Fellowship.....that'd be a bit bizzare when we have more revelation than they did previously. And if the person was not dealt with in the fellowship because he was at least "focusing on the law of Moses", that'd be akin to saying that owning slaves today is permissible because many of the founding Fathers who made the Constitution also had them. .....and many of those individuals focused on the Mosaic Code on slavery, although they perverted alot of stuff (as discussed here and here and here).


Of course, with polygamy, there are some Jewish camps that would not have an issue with it...such as the Indian Jews apart of Bene Israel. The Jews there are said to be descendants of the survivors of an ancient shipwreck. An excellent book on the issue is known as "Burnt Bread and Chutney"...and as the author explains in the preface, the Bene Israel “evolved quite uniquely, without many of the holidays, rituals, and rabbinic rulings introduced meanwhile in the general Jewish Diaspora. …They adopted the local language, Marathi, and manners of dress like the sari, along with some of the other Indian customs; they… mostly kept to themselves. They maintained the few ancient Jewish rituals which could be passed on.” At the same time, they absorbed Indian influences in prayer melodies and rituals, fasting, pilgrimages, and caste-like ways.
who in some parts are known for still practicing polygamy still as did many of the patriarchs (Abraham, Jacob, etc) and David did---thus angering others there. One can go here for more (as well as here). Additionally, one can go here for more on the subject...but that is another story.


All of that is said to indicate how many things in the Mosaic Law were never given to be done for all time, as many of them were done due to restraint for people who neither had his Spirit...or the same kind of relationship that we have today---and with the Lord Yeshua, who came and gave clarity on what was meant in the Law, as well as alluding on what was yet to come with differing Laws (updates) for new people, that is something that can never be forgotten.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I wasn't speaking of people's "Jewishness" but rather their theology.
I think what often occurs is that ideology/theology can be interwtwined with cultural heritages (or genetics)...and thus, "Jewishness" is seen as an all-inclusive thing.
 
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Lulav

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I wasn't speaking of people's "Jewishness" but rather their theology.
Oh comeon!

Originally Posted by ContraMundum
Yep, and we are the Messianic Jews! Born Jewish, raised Jewish...but not Jewish enough for the Gentiles, who want to "out-Jew" us. LOL

born Jewish,
raised Jewish,

This is about theology? You were defiantly speaking about you and Shimshon. I can't think of anyone here that would agree you were talking theology and not ethnicity.

besides, being born Jewish is not theological.
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);59033748 said:
I think what often occurs is that ideology/theology can be interwtwined with cultural heritages (or genetics)...and thus, "Jewishness" is seen as an all-inclusive thing.
Sort of like a check list...
 
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Lulav

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I think there is a romanticized notion of the early Judiazing sects that is resurfacing at least in this forum..

It's really rather poor form, if you look at the facts. The notion that these guys were "ok" because they allegedly stuck to the Law is besides the point. They erred on many more serious matters of theology, including promoting heretical Christology and heretical soteriology, and that's just for starters. However, just because they had the outward appearance of being Torah keepers all is forgiven by the 21stC punter desperate to find validation for his rejection of the full Gospel in the early Christian Faith. They were ultimately deniers of God's revelation.

We have pointed out their errors numerous times on this forum but of course it is ignored in favour of the romance of them being "Jewish" (in fact, Jewish theology rejects the notion of Gentiles under the obligation of being Torah keepers, both then and now). But, never let the facts stand in the way of a good story, so to speak.

Poor form? No, it is about things that were kept from the common people now coming to light. It is about the information that is accessible to all now instead of a select few.


A 'Punter'? What exactly does that mean down under?

We are not allowed to get into why they ignored the 'revelation' here so I won't take the bait on that one. :) But to say that 'we have pointed out their errors numerous times on this forum' is exactly what the problem is.
This is not another Christian denomination forum because those that come here do not believe that the church had it all right. If we wanted to follow the Catholic/Anglican way, we would all be in one of those churches, sacrificing Christ over and over again. We do not believe in that so we are here. Anyone that didn't follow what Constantine determined should be followed was deemed a heretic. To you and those like you who try to preach to us how wrong we are, I'm sure consider us all heretics in here as well.

But just because they won out and recorded the history and keep what they wanted known as the only guide out there for years does not make it correct.

If this is what you mean by 'romanticizing' then so be it, I still wish to get back to that place.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized : and the same day there were added unto them (120) about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
This is the true beginning of Messianic Judaism to me. This is what I hope we can get back to.

But sadly this still remains the same today.................

Once the Jerusalem church, still headed by Jesus' relatives, was eliminated during the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135, the Ebionites gradually lost influence and followers. According to Hyam Maccoby (1987) their decline was due to marginalization and "persecution" by both Jews and Christians
Only thing different today is that to the Jews and Christians, the Jewish Christians need to be added to that list.
 
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ContraMundum

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Oh comeon!



born Jewish,
raised Jewish,

This is about theology? You were defiantly speaking about you and Shimshon. I can't think of anyone here that would agree you were talking theology and not ethnicity.

besides, being born Jewish is not theological.

I don't know how many times I have had to say "this is not about you".

Being born and raised Jewish will influence your theology. Being raised in the Church will also.
 
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ContraMundum

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Poor form? No, it is about things that were kept from the common people now coming to light. It is about the information that is accessible to all now instead of a select few.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. It doesn't fly. To me, it's just another conspiracy theory meant to occupy the minds of the perpetually dissatisfied.
 
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Lulav

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I don't know how many times I have had to say "this is not about you".

Being born and raised Jewish will influence your theology. Being raised in the Church will also.
When you are speaking of my theology it is of course about me. :doh: It is funny because you were raised, Consevative/Orthodox yet now hold dear the teachings of the Christian Church. I was raised not knowing we were Jewish, and hearing things like 'cheap Jew' and more, from my gentile Grandfather, which my mother also took on and my father agreeing (step father) and being very confused. Even at an early age I wondered how could those who said they loved Jesus, hate Jews? Now I know why my Grandmother never talked like that.

I agree your theology usually comes from how you were raised, but how do you explain me?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. It doesn't fly. To me, it's just another conspiracy theory meant to occupy the minds of the perpetually dissatisfied.
How about the perpetual distrust of an organization that taught to hate the Jews for killing Christ, for killing Jews that wouldn't convert...................
 
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ContraMundum

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I agree your theology usually comes from how you were raised, but how do you explain me?

I don't wish to even try on a public forum.

How about the perpetual distrust of an organization that taught to hate the Jews for killing Christ, for killing Jews that wouldn't convert...................
I have never heard a Christian pastor, priest, minister, lecturer, bishop or Pope ever teach anyone to hate the Jews because they killed Christ. In fact, I am constantly amazed at how much Judaism and Jews are in favor with Christians right now. This is because, on my calendar, the year is 2011. It is not the Dark Ages anymore.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It is not the Dark Ages anymore.

Technically, the Dark Ages were never "Dark" to begin with as they were quite brilliant/revolutionary at many points (and perhaps more civilized than we are today )....although they did have alot of gloomy spots:)
 
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Lulav

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I don't wish to even try on a public forum.

I have never heard a Christian pastor, priest, minister, lecturer, bishop or Pope ever teach anyone to hate the Jews because they killed Christ. In fact, I am constantly amazed at how much Judaism and Jews are in favor with Christians right now. This is because, on my calendar, the year is 2011. It is not the Dark Ages anymore.
Right here on this forum one of our new members just posted how the their family told them the Jews killed Jesus. Just because you havne't heard it (and it is politically incorrect to teach that now) does not mean it still isn't being pasted down, and from where, the teachings in the church.

Just recently Truthseeker told us of her ex church members coming to her and telling her that Jesus wasn't Jewish and that the disciples renounced their Jewishness.

If you have not heard this either

1. It is not being said in front of you because they know you are Jewish and at least have some decorum

Or

2. You simply have chosen to ignore it and live in your own world.

Anti-Judaic attitudes developed from the early years of Christianity, the persecution of Christians in the New Testament, and persisted over the ensuing centuries, driven by numerous factors including theological differences, competition between Church and Synagogue, the Christian drive for converts decreed by the Great Commission, misunderstanding of Jewish beliefs and practices, and a perceived, and sometimes actual, Jewish hostility toward Christians.


These attitudes persisted in Christian preaching, art and popular teaching of contempt for Jews over the centuries. In many Christian countries, it led to civil and political discrimination against Jews, legal disabilities, and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which occasionally ended in emigration, expulsion, and even death.

Where did all these people learn this if not taught by the Church?

New York, NY, February 23, 2004 … On the eve of the release of Mel Gibson's controversial film "The Passion of the Christ," a poll commissioned by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) has found that one in four Americans believe that Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus.
A national poll of 1,200 American adults conducted December 1-4, 2003 by The Marttila Communications Group of Boston found that 25 percent of those surveyed accepted the statement, "Do you think that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ?" as being "probably true." The poll has a margin of error of +/- 2.8 percent.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]For the simple tenets of their faith, most Roman Catholics rely on the catechism's hard questions and imprimatured answers. Children in Church schools memorize its passages, which they rarely forget the rest of their lives.
In the catechism, they learn that Catholic dogma does not change
and,
far more vividly, that Jews killed Jesus Christ. Because of that Christian concept, for the past 20 centuries anti- Semitism spread as a kind of social disease on the body of mankind.
[/FONT]
 
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Desert Rose

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Right here on this forum one of our new members just posted how the their family told them the Jews killed Jesus. Just because you havne't heard it (and it is politically incorrect to teach that now) does not mean it still isn't being pasted down, and from where, the teachings in the church.

Just recently Truthseeker told us of her ex church members coming to her and telling her that Jesus wasn't Jewish and that the disciples renounced their Jewishness.

If you have not heard this either

1. It is not being said in front of you because they know you are Jewish and at least have some decorum

Or

2. You simply have chosen to ignore it and live in your own world.



Where did all these people learn this if not taught by the Church?

a) I don't believe everything I see posted on this forum.

b) Your options 1) and 2) are as good a theory as any other, but there should be an option 3) eg. it just is so rare that most people don't encounter it.
 
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ContraMundum

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Easy G (G²);59051008 said:
Technically, the Dark Ages were never "Dark" to begin with as they were quite brilliant/revolutionary at many points (and perhaps more civilized than we are today )....although they did have alot of gloomy spots:)

Some guy told me the other day that the real reason they were called Dark Ages is because of the climate in Europe: eg a very cold and gloomy era for weather. Oh well...just another theory that won't effect my day-to-day life. :cool:
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Right here on this forum one of our new members just posted how the their family told them the Jews killed Jesus. Just because you havne't heard it (and it is politically incorrect to teach that now) does not mean it still isn't being pasted down, and from where, the teachings in the church.

Just recently Truthseeker told us of her ex church members coming to her and telling her that Jesus wasn't Jewish and that the disciples renounced their Jewishness.

If you have not heard this either

1. It is not being said in front of you because they know you are Jewish and at least have some decorum

Or

2. You simply have chosen to ignore it and live in your own world.



Where did all these people learn this if not taught by the Church?

a) I don't believe everything I see posted on this forum.

b) Your options 1) and 2) are as good a theory as any other, but there should be an option 3) eg. it just is so rare that most people don't encounter it.

Such is not so rare as you think; in many reformed protestant Churches, this is exactly what they teach and believe, but not in so many words in this politically correct world.

The born-again; once saved, always saved Christians believe that once they are saved, they are sinless and therefore have no obligation under the ten commandments. Since they consider themselves without sin, there is no way that they could share responsibility for Christ's crucifixion; they have, for all intents and purposes absolved themselves of all guilt.

In another thread in GT where the purpose of the law is being discussed, this group, while not saying "Jews killed Christ", are very clear that that they believe that not only being obligated to the law, but faith-motivated observation of the law is contrary to the Gospel.

There were accusations of one of your members and some others (including myself) that we are "proselytizing"; yet that group has done nothing but " proselytize" in almost every post.

I would advise, in situations such as this that it may be best to, as Scripture says "shake the dust off of our feet", and move on.

Just a reminder of another tool at your disposal; If a thread that you start goes off topic, or turns into a "bash each other" thread, feel free to ask for some help from staff; we can clean up a thread, post mod hats to remind posters of rules, to direct a thread back to the OP. We will also close a thread at the OP's request. Likewise, the Original Poster may request a thread be closed when it has run it's course, and arguments become circular (rehashing what has already been posted). Remember though, if members are posting on topic, and within the rules we will not act as censors just because others are posting opposing views, which can be refuted in thread.

God blessing and peace!
 
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ContraMundum

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Such is not so rare as you think; in many reformed protestant Churches, this is exactly what they teach and believe, but not in so many words in this politically correct world.

The born-again; once saved, always saved Christians believe that once they are saved, they are sinless and therefore have no obligation under the ten commandments. Since they consider themselves without sin, there is no way that they could share responsibility for Christ's crucifixion; they have, for all intents and purposes absolved themselves of all guilt.

In another thread in GT where the purpose of the law is being discussed, this group, while not saying "Jews killed Christ", are very clear that that they believe that not only being obligated to the law, but faith-motivated observation of the law is contrary to the Gospel.

There were accusations of one of your members and some others (including myself) that we are "proselytizing"; yet that group has done nothing but " proselytize" in almost every post.

I would advise, in situations such as this that it may be best to, as Scripture says "shake the dust off of our feet", and move on.

Just a reminder of another tool at your disposal; If a thread that you start goes off topic, or turns into a "bash each other" thread, feel free to ask for some help from staff; we can clean up a thread, post mod hats to remind posters of rules, to direct a thread back to the OP. We will also close a thread at the OP's request. Likewise, the Original Poster may request a thread be closed when it has run it's course, and arguments become circular (rehashing what has already been posted). Remember though, if members are posting on topic, and within the rules we will not act as censors just because others are posting opposing views, which can be refuted in thread.

God blessing and peace!

Are we talking about the same thing?
 
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