Does free will truly exist?

[Fletch1992]

Ok, so a total newbie wading in here who is going to 100% honest and say that she didn't read every post in this thread due to tiredness from Uni work, I'd have to argue that free will doesn't exist for three reasons:
1. We are nearly all brought up to respect authority and doing as we are told gets us rewards
2. The experiments in obedience conducted by Stanley Milgram
3. Personal experience. I actively restrain doing my own free will or moreover what I really believe I should be doing because of consequences actions always cause.

 

[Bushido216]

That misses the point. By not disobeying authority figures you are freely choosing to do as told and freely choosing to avoid the consequences of the other choice. There's nothing stopping you from taking a can of paint and dousing your professor with it, you've just decided that in your valuations of the outcome, it isn't worth it, so decide not to.

 

[Fletch1992]

But is the choice to do as you're told free will? Studies into obedience have shown that there are many processes, such as the agentic state where people assign all responsibility for their actions onto another, i'd argue they didn't do that on purpose.

 

[Bushido216]

Like I said, you're confusing the rational valuation of two alternatives and free will.

Just because disobeying authority would render terrible consequences doesn't mean you can't, it just means you value obeying authority much, much more than the consequences. You'd have to demonstrate that a person suffered a complete loss of agency to convince me otherwise.

 

[roach]

I don't think free will is an intuitive idea, so understanding what people mean when they speak of 'free will' is always interesting and revealing. What parts of one's inner life have an external/physical cause? I think all experience has a physical cause and every single belief, emotion or idea that allows people the experience of having 'free will' can be altered or erased through the manipulation of the brain. The concept should be de-mystified, imo.

 

[Bushido216]

That one can undermine the agency of an individual doesn't refute the notion that free will exists, only that it doesn't exist for that person.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

As much as the status 'married bachelor' is an obstacle to drawing square circles.

 

[Fletch1992]

I don't think I've missed the point, I've just given my opinion, I don't think free will exists based on what I said earlier, if we take free will as doing what you want or doing what you're told.

 

[Bushido216]

Well, your definition of free will is different than the one being used in this discussion. You're free to hold that belief, but, in the context of this thread, you're wrong.

 

[Fletch1992]

What's wrong with bringing a different context into a thread? I admitted in my first post I hadn't read the entire thread, I'm new and just finding my way round.

 

[GrayAngel]

If I take a ball and drop it, does the ball have a choice for whether or not it's going to obey the law of gravity and fall? No. Humans are only different in two ways:

1. Motivation - Humans have motivation, which causes people to act. I sometimes refer to this as a limited will, because we lack the ability to choose what we want. Our will is still reacting to something other than ourselves.

2. Complexity - A ball has very few forces acting upon it, so it's easy to predict what it will do. A human, however, has a complex brain which is programmed to pick up and react to many different signals. With our five senses, we pick up signals from light, sounds, tastes, smells, and the touch. So while sitting in my chair, I'm aware of the conversation my parents are having, the ruffling of the bag of popcorn my dad is eating from, the TV in the background, and the sensation of the floor on my feet. My mind is constantly monitoring my level of comfort, and I will be made aware if my back starts to hurt from slouching too much. I have memories of past experiences, and a mass of unconscious mind working without my knowledge.

With so many things going on in my brain, so many forces acting upon me, how could anyone predict I'll do next? This is exactly what causes the illusion of free will. We're so complex, we're unpredictable. And we make the mistake of equating unpredictability with free will.

 

[Bushido216]

What's wrong with bringing a different context into a thread? I admitted in my first post I hadn't read the entire thread, I'm new and just finding my way round.

The problem is that you can't enter a discussion in the middle using a different definition that everyone else is using. It creates confusion, is intellectually dishonest, and is generally considered to be quite poor manners.

 

[Bushido216]

If I take a ball and drop it, does the ball have a choice for whether or not it's going to obey the law of gravity and fall? No. Humans are only different in two ways:

1. Motivation - Humans have motivation, which causes people to act. I sometimes refer to this as a limited will, because we lack the ability to choose what we want. Our will is still reacting to something other than ourselves.

2. Complexity - A ball has very few forces acting upon it, so it's easy to predict what it will do. A human, however, has a complex brain which is programmed to pick up and react to many different signals. With our five senses, we pick up signals from light, sounds, tastes, smells, and the touch. So while sitting in my chair, I'm aware of the conversation my parents are having, the ruffling of the bag of popcorn my dad is eating from, the TV in the background, and the sensation of the floor on my feet. My mind is constantly monitoring my level of comfort, and I will be made aware if my back starts to hurt from slouching too much. I have memories of past experiences, and a mass of unconscious mind working without my knowledge.

With so many things going on in my brain, so many forces acting upon me, how could anyone predict I'll do next? This is exactly what causes the illusion of free will. We're so complex, we're unpredictable. And we make the mistake of equating unpredictability with free will.

You don't need omnipotence to have free will. Having a limited set of options isn't the same as not having the will to freely choose between them. I can't freely will to fly myself at hyper-luminal speeds to Alpha Centauri, but I hardly think anyone considers that a valid counter-claim.

 

[GrayAngel]

You don't need omnipotence to have free will. Having a limited set of options isn't the same as not having the will to freely choose between them. I can't freely will to fly myself at hyper-luminal speeds to Alpha Centauri, but I hardly think anyone considers that a valid counter-claim.

I didn't say anything about omnipotence or limited choices. I said that humans are complex and unpredictable, yet our actions are determined by the many forces acting on us. The complexity of the human mind gives us the illusion of free will.

We can build complex machines with unpredictable behaviors too, but they're still acting based on their programming, and their actions are only "random" in-so-far as we can't say beforehand what they will do. We are the same, except that we are far more complex than any machine.

 

[Bushido216]

So basically you're a determinist? You do realize that the path you're leading towards essentially does a hatchet job to morality. People aren't responsible for their actions anymore.

Also, Quantum Mechanics.

 

[GrayAngel]

So basically you're a determinist? You do realize that the path you're leading towards essentially does a hatchet job to morality. People aren't responsible for their actions anymore.

Also, Quantum Mechanics.

Free will is a myth. The sooner you realize, the sooner you can grasp morality for what it really is. The truth is, we were all formed by two main forces that were out of our control: nature and nurture.

Some research suggests that some psychopathic murderers may have been led to murder because of a biological lack of ability to obtain pleasure from activities that normal people find enjoyment from. Would this matter at all to us when he's on trial? Or for the sake of simplicity, if we were able to isolate a gene that causes people to become murderers, would we say that that person isn't accountable?

Or if there say that murderer also had an abusive childhood in which he was molded to become a killer. Would we let him go free?

Accountability has nothing to do with origin. We don't care how you became the way you were. If we did, then everyone could find some kind of an excuse. Actually, when you think about it, we do. How often do people take accountability for their actions, not blaming someone else or some kind circumstance outside of their control?

Good is good, and evil is evil, just as much as a grain of sand is a grain of sand. It doesn't matter how it got there.

Also, I hardly think we know enough about quantum mechanics to be making any conclusions yet. All I know is that the world around us follows order, so anything at the quantum level must also have order. You can't have a solid house on a shaky foundation.

EDIT: Additionally, even if what some say about quantum mechanics were true, then our actions would be determined by chance, which is still a force outside of our control and is contrary to the notion of free will.

 

[Bushido216]

Riiiiight.

So why does God make a big fuss about morality then? You can't 1. hold Baptist (and therefore Christian) views on morality while also being a determinist. The one precludes the other.

 

[GrayAngel]

Riiiiight.

So why does God make a big fuss about morality then? You can't 1. hold Baptist (and therefore Christian) views on morality while also being a determinist. The one precludes the other.

Not sure you got that last bit I just edited in. Say energy at the quantum level acts in a truly chaotic/unpredictable/random manner. If you apply this to higher levels of reality, then our actions are due to chance. Chance is still something outside of our control. And say our every move were determined by a roll of a dice, would we be accountable then?

The idea that accountability only applies when we have free will is without any basis.

God has a system of morality because He despises evil. It doesn't matter that the Pharaoh was, as Paul describes, "raised up" for God's purposes. Our lives, our destiny, are totally up to God and His mercy. The Pharaoh still went to Hell, even though God took credit for hardening his heart on a number of occasions.

Your turn to do the explaining. If the Bible specifically says that the Pharaoh was created to be an object of God's wrath, why does the Bible also hold Him accountable? And what does it mean when it says that God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh and his officials in the context of free will. Why does the Bible say that God hated Esau even before he was born (Romans 9:11-15)?

 

[Pinchme]

If God knows what is going to happen and our life choices, isn't this an obstacle against free will?

God learns us as we are suppose to learn him. He devices plans to keep us on track or to get back on track. we are now off track, derailed.

 

[GrayAngel]

God learns us as we are suppose to learn him. He devices plans to keep us on track or to get back on track. we are now off track, derailed.

So God's plans are useless because any one of the 7,000,000,000 rebellious sinners on this planet can come along and screw them up?

"Whoops. Sorry, man. I had plans to give you a wife and four kids, but it looks like the guy with the gun is going to wipe that away. But at least you have a mansion waiting for you in the afterlife! Oh, wait. You weren't saved yet. That was supposed to happen during that camping retreat I was going to have your girlfriend invite you to next Summer. Sucks for you, then."