Does free will truly exist?

[quatona]

P1: Morality only if choice
P2. There is no choice.
C. There is no morality.

Exactly my point: P1 wasn´t mentioned in your initial post.
C didn´t follow.

Now it does. Thanks.

However, P1 is still merely your (so far) unsupported premise.

 

[GrayAngel]

P1: Morality only if choice
P2. There is no choice.
C. There is no morality.

Modus Tollens. I was speaking to an audience, not a seminar.

P1 hasn't been supported yet. And you can't support it, not Biblically or scientifically. Evil and good are created, just like gold and silver, and they are treated according to their function.

There is no Biblical basis for your opinion. And lawfully, we would still throw a man behind bars for murder if we knew that God created Him to be a murderer.

 

[quatona]

P1: Morality only if choice
P2. There is no choice.
C. There is no morality.

P1: There´s morality.
P2: There´s no choice.
C: There´s morality without choice.

That´s easy.

 

[Bushido216]

P1 hasn't been supported yet. And you can't support it, not Biblically or scientifically. Evil and good are created, just like gold and silver, and they are treated according to their function.

There is no Biblical basis for your opinion. And lawfully, we would still throw a man behind bars for murder if we knew that God created Him to be a murderer.

For whatever it's worth, you can't support determinism Biblically or scientifically either.

I posit that God is the condition of possibility for both Good and Evil, insofar as that which God will is Good, and that which is opposed is Evil. I think that's fairly pro-forma for Christians, and allows us to work around contradictions such as God ordering people in the Bible to perform actions that anyone else would be condemned for.

You're essentially suggesting that people are created to be Good (i.e., follow closely enough God's Will) and others to be Evil (i.e., to be the opposite) [let's ignore for now the possibility of people created to be neither]. How do you resolve the fact that persons aren't able to make their own choices, yet we are constantly told throughout the Bible that we must CHOOSE the correct path? How do you resolve that people are created for Evil and yet are Judged in the afterlife? Why the one if also the other?

In other words, what is the sufficient cause for God sending His only begotten son to spread the Good Word and die for our sins if those sins were pre-determined and we're pre-determined to repeat them anyway?

 

[GrayAngel]

For whatever it's worth, you can't support determinism Biblically or scientifically either.

I posit that God is the condition of possibility for both Good and Evil, insofar as that which God will is Good, and that which is opposed is Evil. I think that's fairly pro-forma for Christians, and allows us to work around contradictions such as God ordering people in the Bible to perform actions that anyone else would be condemned for.

You're essentially suggesting that people are created to be Good (i.e., follow closely enough God's Will) and others to be Evil (i.e., to be the opposite) [let's ignore for now the possibility of people created to be neither]. How do you resolve the fact that persons aren't able to make their own choices, yet we are constantly told throughout the Bible that we must CHOOSE the correct path? How do you resolve that people are created for Evil and yet are Judged in the afterlife? Why the one if also the other?

In other words, what is the sufficient cause for God sending His only begotten son to spread the Good Word and die for our sins if those sins were pre-determined and we're pre-determined to repeat them anyway?

I have a whole list of Biblical evidence ready, but you haven't responded to the one I've already used yet. I have no trouble supporting my view with scripture, but all free-will proponents can do is speak their own opinions and quote verses like John 3:16, which have nothing to do with the topic.

The only reason you have for believing in free will is your upbringing, along with your fear of losing your sense of control and power over your own life. Ironically, when the latter is substituted for Biblical truth, it actually leads to a better sense of security.

 

[Bushido216]

I have a whole list of Biblical evidence ready, but you haven't responded to the one I've already used yet. I have no trouble supporting my view with scripture, but all free-will proponents can do is speak their own opinions and quote verses like John 3:16, which have nothing to do with the topic.

The only reason you have for believing in free will is your upbringing, along with your fear of losing your sense of control and power over your own life. Ironically, when the latter is substituted for Biblical truth, it actually leads to a better sense of security.

I'd super-appreciate if you didn't attempt to psychoanalyze me. It didn't work for Freud and my guess is it won't work for you.

As far as your previous scriptures, they're not germane. God can happily remove agency for one Pharaoh without removing it for all. Remember, you need to demonstrate that free will doesn't exist for anyone. Bringing up specific instances of it not existing for some people doesn't negate the existence of free will altogether.

Also, you still need to provide the SUFFICIENT REASON for various Biblical commands about choice and decision making in the context of those there being no such thing as choice and decision making. In the context of God's deterministic project, why bother issuing commandments and instructing people to be charitable?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I can connect a person to a choice by way of the fact that they made it.

Sure. Can you do this with the other one(s) too?

Other one's what?

The other choice(s) of course. Those which are not taken, but are held to be actually possible. (I mean, in libertarian free will.)

 

[GrayAngel]

I'd super-appreciate if you didn't attempt to psychoanalyze me. It didn't work for Freud and my guess is it won't work for you.

As far as your previous scriptures, they're not germane. God can happily remove agency for one Pharaoh without removing it for all. Remember, you need to demonstrate that free will doesn't exist for anyone. Bringing up specific instances of it not existing for some people doesn't negate the existence of free will altogether.

Also, you still need to provide the SUFFICIENT REASON for various Biblical commands about choice and decision making in the context of those there being no such thing as choice and decision making. In the context of God's deterministic project, why bother issuing commandments and instructing people to be charitable?

Sorry. I'm a psychology major, so it slips out sometimes.

The verse I provided didn't say that Pharaoh was an exception to the rule. And isn't the reason why you reject predestination because it claims that God predestines some for Hell? But here, it looks like you're acknowledging that at least one was chosen for such a purpose.

The Pharaoh was not the only example, either. Paul also brought up Jacob and Esau a few verses back, whom God chose one to love and one to hate before they were even born.

Also, here's some other verses to consider, in no particular order:

Romans 8:28-30

Ephesians 1:4-6, 1:11-12, 2:8-10

John 6:44, 6:64-65, 12:37-40, 15:16

Acts 4:27-28, 13:48

Proverbs 16:4, 16:9, 16:33, 20:24

I Peter 2:7-8

Genesis 50:18-21

 

[Bushido216]

Sorry. I'm a psychology major, so it slips out sometimes.

The verse I provided didn't say that Pharaoh was an exception to the rule. And isn't the reason why you reject predestination because it claims that God predestines some for Hell? But here, it looks like you're acknowledging that at least one was chosen for such a purpose.

The Pharaoh was not the only example, either. Paul also brought up Jacob and Esau a few verses back, whom God chose one to love and one to hate before they were even born.

Also, here's some other verses to consider, in no particular order:

Romans 8:28-30

Ephesians 1:4-6, 1:11-12, 2:8-10

John 6:44, 6:64-65, 12:37-40, 15:16

Acts 4:27-28, 13:48

Proverbs 16:4, 16:9, 16:33, 20:24

I Peter 2:7-8

Genesis 50:18-21

I have a psychology degree, and a philosophy degree, if we're throwing around CVs. I'm also bright enough to know that an undergraduate degree in psychology gives you the ability to rattle off from the DSM, but hardly makes you a practitioner.

Anyway, all I see are restrictions on some people. Not all people.I want it clearly demonstrated that it is not the case that ANYONE has free will.

 

[Bushido216]

The other choice(s) of course. Those which are not taken, but are held to be actually possible. (I mean, in libertarian free will.)

That they were possible as a result of that person's situations and were not taken.

 

[GrayAngel]

I have a psychology degree, and a philosophy degree, if we're throwing around CVs. I'm also bright enough to know that an undergraduate degree in psychology gives you the ability to rattle off from the DSM, but hardly makes you a practitioner.

Anyway, all I see are restrictions on some people. Not all people.I want it clearly demonstrated that it is not the case that ANYONE has free will.

So now you're saying that some people have free will while others do not? Where did you pull that out from? Do you have any Biblical support for this claim? How are these people who are without free will and different from us?

Also, some of these verses specifically targets all people, not specific people. Such as:

John 6:44 - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Proverbs 20:24 - A person's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand their own way?

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Additionally, the Romans 8 passage puts two things together that you say are impossible:

1. God's preordaining who will be saved.

2. God's judgement. Why would you need to be justified if God was the one in control of your life, considering we apparently need free will to be accountable for our actions?

 

[FMX]

Apparently not from what I read in psychology

 

[Lord Emsworth]

That they were possible as a result of that person's situations and were not taken.

But how do you connect them? Before, you instantly said "by way of the fact that they made it". I guess so far it is good. It is also causal. Are you relying on causal relationships here too, and what about the person would you point at to account for the difference? You can't and nothing.