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Trying to find a particular bible story

Cooooyote

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I looked around the forum, there are tons of different places to post in, but none that seemed as right as here for asking for help to find a certain part of the text, as someone who doesn't identify with being Christian can't post everywhere.

I do believe it is old testament, nearly certain.
In the story there are several brothers,
four or five?

And they're being tortured by a king or a group of people who want them to recant their faith in Yahweh. They don't, and endure many strange and horrific tortures until death, one at a time.

Yeah, this is a little morbid, but it should ring a bell since its kind of specific? I think at the end, the last brother, for some reason, is not killed, maybe someone saves him, or they give up, or god himself intervenes.

Can anyone tell me where this story is in a bible? The book and number?
thanks.
 

drich0150

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Not really sure that this is a biblically based story. The only thing close is the account of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers and then later saving his whole family when a great famine Hit the land. (lots of twists and turns in his story.)
 
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Cooooyote

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It's definitely in the Bible. I remember the thin pages, and that it was a little hard to understand some of the language used, and also, that I was reading a bible--that was kind of memorable, haha.

And it's definitely about more than three brothers. I have this idea, for some reason, that they were in the hall of a king or a lord of the land and the torture was very specific and detailed.

I decided to ask here, instead of flipping through the book because it's so BIG. But I remember it being a good ways into OT. Maybe I'll find it on my own.
 
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Cooooyote

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I found it, it is book of Maccabees, maybe it was in new testament after all.

Seven Jewish brothers, their mother and their teacher are known in Christianity as the Holy Maccabean Martyrs or Holy Maccabees, although they are not said to be of the Maccabee family. They are so named from the description of their martyrdom in 2 and 4 Maccabees.

According to one tradition, their individual names are Habim, Antonin, Guriah, Eleazar, Eusebon, Hadim (Halim), Marcellus, their mother Solomonia, and their teacher Eleazar.

It is so much more gruesome than I remember reading, but no real word or whether they suffered. Though the text is plain and clear. One in particular is scalped, and then put on the wheel to have every joint that can find snapped and broken. This sounds beyond painful, it sounds like it would kill you, if you did not pass out.

One of the other brothers is roasted alive in a very slow fashion. When I read it, since it did not focus on their pains, but rather that they didn't give in to it, I wonder if god took away their pain?
 
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drich0150

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I found it, it is book of Maccabees, maybe it was in new testament after all.
Only if your beliefs are based in Catholicism..

It is so much more gruesome than I remember reading, but no real word or whether they suffered. Though the text is plain and clear. One in particular is scalped, and then put on the wheel to have every joint that can find snapped and broken. This sounds beyond painful, it sounds like it would kill you, if you did not pass out.
...and this is apart of that reason the why the book of Maccabees is not accepted by all of Christianity. "Breaking wheel" was a medieval invention not a first century/end of the second (When the book was supposedly written) devise. They used crosses and lions, other wise Christ would have most likely been put to the wheel himself.

One of the other brothers is roasted alive in a very slow fashion. When I read it, since it did not focus on their pains, but rather that they didn't give in to it, I wonder if god took away their pain
Yet another example. The "burning" described in the Bible involved lead. The type of burning you are describing is a medieval favorite, and not a first century goto device.

Either way what does it matter if God took away their pain?
 
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Hakan101

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I found it, it is book of Maccabees, maybe it was in new testament after all.

It is so much more gruesome than I remember reading, but no real word or whether they suffered. Though the text is plain and clear. One in particular is scalped, and then put on the wheel to have every joint that can find snapped and broken. This sounds beyond painful, it sounds like it would kill you, if you did not pass out.

One of the other brothers is roasted alive in a very slow fashion. When I read it, since it did not focus on their pains, but rather that they didn't give in to it, I wonder if god took away their pain?

Never heard of this story or the book of Maccabees. You sure this is in the Bible?
 
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ebia

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2 Maccabees is a deuterocanonical book, written around 124BC

The events it describes and the literature itself was enormously influential on Jewish thinking of Jesus time so it's something every christian should read regardless of what they think it's canonical status is.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Just to add to what Ebia said, the term "deuterocanonical" refers to those books found in the Septuagint (and therefore in Roman Catholic and Orthodox Bibles) but which are either not in Protestant Bibles at all (most Protestant Bibles today) or are placed in an appendix titled "Apocrypha" (some Protestant Bibles today, but more common in the 16th and 17th centuries; for example the original King James contained the Deuterocanonicals in an appendix between the Old and New Testaments).

So, yes, 2 Maccabees is in the Bible, just not every Bible.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zaksmummy

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The story of the Maccabees is the basis of the Festival of Hannukah which begins this year on the evening of the 20th December.

It is not in the standard Bible, but in the Apocrypha.

It is prophesied in the book of Daniel - I cant remember which of his visions it is, I think its the 4th, but is starts off basically that a large horn will break into four small horns.

The large horn was Alexander the Great, the four small horns were his generals who divided up his empire. Two of them fought over Israel and the winner, whose name i cannot just recall took over israel and hellenised it, that is why you find Hellenises Jews mentioned in the NT - because they lived in a more Greek way to their strictly Hebrew neighbours.

The new king enforced the Greek gods onto Israel, and many Jews dies for circumcising their sons and continuing to teach Gods laws as well. Eventually they got sick of the persecution and it came to a head when the Greeks insisted that the priests living in a small town sacrifice a pig. Judah Maccabee and is father and brothers became enraged as such a slight to God that the killed the Greeks and began guerrilla warfare until they kicked the Greeks out of Israel.

It may not be in the bible, but it is a good story and shows how God rescued his people against the might of the Greek empire.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The story of the Maccabees is the basis of the Festival of Hannukah which begins this year on the evening of the 20th December.

It is not in the standard Bible, but in the Apocrypha.

It is prophesied in the book of Daniel - I cant remember which of his visions it is, I think its the 4th, but is starts off basically that a large horn will break into four small horns.

The large horn was Alexander the Great, the four small horns were his generals who divided up his empire. Two of them fought over Israel and the winner, whose name i cannot just recall took over israel and hellenised it, that is why you find Hellenises Jews mentioned in the NT - because they lived in a more Greek way to their strictly Hebrew neighbours.

The new king enforced the Greek gods onto Israel, and many Jews dies for circumcising their sons and continuing to teach Gods laws as well. Eventually they got sick of the persecution and it came to a head when the Greeks insisted that the priests living in a small town sacrifice a pig. Judah Maccabee and is father and brothers became enraged as such a slight to God that the killed the Greeks and began guerrilla warfare until they kicked the Greeks out of Israel.

It may not be in the bible, but it is a good story and shows how God rescued his people against the might of the Greek empire.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the "king of the north", that is the king of the Seleucid Empire who won against the "king of the south", the Ptolemies.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Cooooyote

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From what I read, I don't think Maccabees even pretends to be historical, but it seems instead to be a, I dunno, philosophical text?

it is strange to me, though, that I could be reading a bible, and it isn't the right bible...How can one tell when they're reading the real bible and the fakes?

Does it not matter if the bible contains the actual truthful books, so long as they're untampered with?

Or do you view bibles that contain the fake books as sacrilegious in some way? For holding them in the binding at all.

I was a little surprised to find that some people were entirely unaware of this Book, but I knew of it.
 
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ebia

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razeontherock said:
I'm curious about the observation that Maccabees refers to midieval torture devices, but was supposedly written BC? Glad the OP found his story, and that it's not in anything I'd consider to be Scripture.

I'm not aware of any reputable scholar who thinks 2 Maccabees is not 2nd century BC (or early 1st) - and an extremely influential text at that.
 
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ebia

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Cooooyote said:
From what I read, I don't think Maccabees even pretends to be historical, but it seems instead to be a, I dunno, philosophical text?
2 Macc is a retelling of the Maccabees story in a theological framework. It's very significant as the first really strong comment on the resurrection of the dead.

it is strange to me, though, that I could be reading a bible, and it isn't the right bible...How can one tell when they're reading the real bible and the fakes?
It's not a question of real verses fake, but rather something that has some blurred, indistinct, edges.

Does it not matter if the bible contains the actual truthful books, so long as they're untampered with?

Or do you view bibles that contain the fake books as sacrilegious in some way? For holding them in the binding at all.
what do you mean by "fake" books?
It's just a somewhat open question to what extent they are God breathed in the sense Genesis or Luke is. That's not a problem unless you make it one - the canon has always been a somewhat open question.

I was a little surprised to find that some people were entirely unaware of this Book, but I knew of it.
 
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razeontherock

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I'm not aware of any reputable scholar who thinks 2 Maccabees is not 2nd century BC (or early 1st) - and an extremely influential text at that.

Ok. Can you comment on this, posted by Drich?

""Breaking wheel" was a medieval invention not a first century/end of the second (When the book was supposedly written) devise. They used crosses and lions, other wise Christ would have most likely been put to the wheel himself.

Yet another example. The "burning" described in the Bible involved lead. The type of burning you are describing is a medieval favorite, and not a first century goto device."

(Obviously I have not read Macabees, nor studied torture)
 
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ViaCrucis

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From what I read, I don't think Maccabees even pretends to be historical, but it seems instead to be a, I dunno, philosophical text?

it is strange to me, though, that I could be reading a bible, and it isn't the right bible...How can one tell when they're reading the real bible and the fakes?

Does it not matter if the bible contains the actual truthful books, so long as they're untampered with?

Or do you view bibles that contain the fake books as sacrilegious in some way? For holding them in the binding at all.

I was a little surprised to find that some people were entirely unaware of this Book, but I knew of it.

There's plenty of people who are unfamiliar with the story of how we got the Bible, both Christians and non-Christians. There's a lot of misinformation out there from those that imagine the Bible more-or-less just fell from heaven to those that believe in conspiracy theories involving Constantine and/or the Council of Nicea.

A brief rundown of the history of how we got the Bible looks something like this:

Sometime in the third century BCE in the city of Alexandria a group of Jewish scholars made a translation of holy books into Greek, which is referred to as the Septuagint or LXX (both mean "Seventy", a reference to the seventy-two scholars which tradition says did the translation).

The early Christians wrote, taught, and spoke primarily in Greek (specifically Koine, the common tongue of commerce and trade), every quotation in the New Testament to "The Scriptures" (i.e. the "Old Testament") is taken almost verbatim from the Septuagint. It was a readily available translation of Scripture which Greek-speaking Jews were familiar as well as God-fearing Gentiles; it also made Gentile converts have something which they could easily hear read in their tongue.

This, however, does not mean there was a specifically or really clearly defined list of books which were "Scripture", some books were in dispute.

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD several things happened: For one the increasing chasm between the early Jesus movement and Judaism became much more defined; and for another the Sadduccees who depended entirely on the Temple effectively became a non-existent sect of Judaism--leaving Pharisaism as de facto Judaism. It's probably that sometime after this, as part of general de-Hellenization efforts (which had long been a matter of controversy within Judaism) those books which didn't have a more demonstrable Hebrew pedigree were largely cast aside. Though there seems there was still plenty of wiggle room among the Diaspora.

Rather early on the early Christians began to circulate the epistles of Paul which seem to have achieved scriptural status by the early 2nd century. The Four Gospels likewise came to be more-or-less universally accepted within the first quarter or half of the 2nd century. Other books continued to be disputed, such as Peter and John's epistles, the Epistle of Jude, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Clemintine epistles, the Shepherd, (etc), this list of disputed books was rather small though (it did not, for example, include any other gospel texts, such as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, or the Gospel of Philip; books such as this were never up for discussion but were universally excluded by the proto-orthodox churches).

As the years went on the New Testament Canon became more clearly defined, by the 4th century most of the New Testament had been more-or-less agreed upon, though some books continued to be in dispute: For example early codices from the 4th and 5th centuries contain 1 Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd, the Armenian Canon continued to contain III Corinthians for some time, and the Revelation of St. John struggled to find acceptance in the East until the time of St. John of Damascus in the 8th century. In the West the Vulgate (and early English translations such as the Wycliffe Bible done in the 14th century) continued to contain the spurious Epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans.

Concerning the Old Testament the Church, East and West, more-or-less accepted the list of books found in the Septuagint, but a certain selection of these books--the Deuterocanon (meaning "Second Canon")--didn't find universal support. For example in the 5th century St. Jerome questioned their place in the Canon, likewise earlier in the 4th century St. Athanasius lists most of these books outside of the Canon proper (though he includes Baruch as Canon but regards Esther as extra-canonical).

This debate never died in the West, as it was picked back up again by the Protestant Reformers in the 16th century, particularly by Martin Luther. Luther did not desire to remove these books from the Canon, but did regard them as having lesser value and therefore shifted them from their traditional order in the Old Testament to their own section between the Old and New Testaments, calling them "Apocrypha". They remained in Protestant Bibles for quite some time, and still do in many Protestant Bibles today. However in English Bibles they were fully removed by a number of English Bible publishers in the 18th and 19th centuries.

In Lutheran churches we regard them as "Not inspired, but good to read". I believe the Church of England and other member churches in the Anglican Communion continue to have readings from them in the lexionary (Ebia can correct me if I'm wrong here).

The ultimate reason they aren't found in most English Protestant Bibles today (and those Bible translations done or influenced by translation groups which reject these books outright) is because they were removed by English Bible publishers.

Their total ejection from most Protestant Bibles is, I think, a rather sad state of affairs as these books are of tremendous value. Most of the Bibles I own do not contain them, though I wish they did.

In any event, what this all ultimately means is that the contents of the Biblical Canon has mostly come through discussion, debate and rough consensus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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drich0150

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Not to start a debate on the legitimacy of these books and others..

The reason I was told that "English publishers" took the books of Maccabees out was because in they were found to be incomplete. for instance there are some manuscripts that date back to fairly close as to when they were supposed to be written, but yet the manuscripts that were that old were not complete. (8 total I think, but only two are recognized out side of the RC/orthodox church)

What was missing was supposedly added much later in the 11th or 12th centuries. I have studied the books to be considered a curious observer, and I found (the first two) do fill in the time period between Christ and the last words of malichi (the origins of the festival of light, alot of the origins of oral tradition the Pharisees were so animated about "sabbath day extended rules" etc..) but their seems to be other passages that link or solidify the RC's church grab for power, and it underlines or supports the authority established by that agenda.

I would suggest that even the first two books of Mac, are advanced reading for those firmly planted in the canonical scriptures. Or at the very least should be taught by someone who knows these books well, and can help the student decipher what was from the original text and what was added later. Because bottom line is there is not the pedigree in these books as found in the canonical scriptures, and one can easily get lost the first few times through.

Either way to the point of the OP the story he was referring to may had to be in one of the latter books, as Christ is not mentioned by name in the first two. (therefore taking this argument outside of the first two books that would be found in any bible)
 
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drich0150

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From what I read, I don't think Maccabees even pretends to be historical, but it seems instead to be a, I dunno, philosophical text?
the two books associated with the bible are supposed to deal directly with the 1century BC Jewish leaders who lead a rebellion against the Seleucid Dynasty from 175 BC to 134 BC. The first book tells of the back story of Hanukkah and how it became a recognized tradition and why..

the second has a more RC supportive slant to it.

it is strange to me, though, that I could be reading a bible, and it isn't the right bible...How can one tell when they're reading the real bible and the fakes?
It depends on your faith.

Does it not matter if the bible contains the actual truthful books, so long as they're untampered with?
That is why these books were left out of non "traditional" versions. There isn't anyway we can verify these books past the 11 or 12th century.

Or do you view bibles that contain the fake books as sacrilegious in some way? For holding them in the binding at all.
No, for you, Your bible will support what you are able to accept and believe. to that end you will be held to account.

I was a little surprised to find that some people were entirely unaware of this Book, but I knew of it.
Yeah, about early to mid 16 century a very devout catholic Monk was tasked in reading the bible and found alot of inconsistencies between what was written in the bible and what was being taught "from it." so He wrote down his biggest grievances and nailed a copy of this letter to the church's door thus starting a separation or division from the traditional catholic church. As time went on this separation grew greater and greater, thus inspiring bibles who do not include books for the sake of tradition, but a verified pedigree. Now many people are not aware of some of the cut books. Others are but do not recognize them as part of the bible because these books have not been verified in the same way the other 66 have been.

Either way your story does not come from the two book generally associated from any modern bible (King James or Newer translation) because they mention martyrs of Christ which could not have happened till after Stephens death in or around 33 AD. (the first two books of Mac happen at least 100 years before that death.)

Your stories happen much much later, and are probably one of the more heavily influenced RC books dating around the 11th or 12th century but claim to be first or second. Probably the 6th or 7th book.. which are dismissed by most everyone outside of the Vatican, because of things like the mentioning of the breaking wheel, and being burned at the stake when these methods of pain and death were not in use in the time period in which they supposedly had come from..
 
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drich0150

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English publishers dropped the whole "apocrypha" at the same time. Mostly for economic reasons.

If you have some serious scholarship to back up your claims can you post it please.

For what reason? My pride? Yours? Neither is a valid reason. If you wish to find the "scholarship" you are looking for then look here: Google.com

If you wish to discuss this further then open a thread in the appropriate section of the website. i am sure someone some where is just itching to discuss these things with you.

If not, then know for my passing curiosity, I consider the matter closed. I am not here to doubt your faith for you. i am simply answering a question as to the reason these two "books" were not included into the canonical scriptures of 99% of all bibles in print.
 
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