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"God" is not a reasonable response to any question requiring evidence

Phred

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It is simple to state common science understandings and show that Genesis says the same basic thing.
But it doesn't. By your standards I can show Star Wars says basically the same thing. So does every religion. I can cherry pick facts, show that some fit, then claim that by association all fit. Your "logic" doesn't make Genesis scientifically sound. It just makes a snippet here and there fit with a fact.

The response from people who o not want Genesis to say what science basically tells us will detour the issue into a realm of scientific minutia that they pretend clouds the matter sufficiently so that Genesis can either be ridiculed as non-factual or maintained as God given truth superior to facts.
Start at the beginning. You dismiss anything that doesn't fit, you look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist. You blame the inaccuracies on those that find them. Then you harp on God. But you can't find a scientific wisp of data to prove your god exists. How can you claim that Genesis is scientifically sound when it relies upon the existence of a being that CANNOT BE SHOWN TO EXIST?
 
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Phred

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Do you accept that the Big Bang essentially marks the 'beginning" as found in Gen 1:1,...



"in the beginning, God created the Heavens..."
and the earth...

You conveniently left that out. In the very first sentence the Bible is wrong. The earth didn't come along for about 8 BILLION years.

And since I have no idea what happened to cause the expansion we refer to as the Big Bang I have no idea if there could have been a "before" so no... I don't accept that the kindergarten description of the beginning in Genesis is relevant.
 
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Astridhere

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Phred says

Start at the beginning. You dismiss anything that doesn't fit, you look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist. You blame the inaccuracies on those that find them. Then you harp on God. But you can't find a scientific wisp of data to prove your god exists. How can you claim that Genesis is scientifically sound when it relies upon the existence of a being that CANNOT BE SHOWN TO EXIST?


Phred, I hope you see the hypocritical standard you are seeking.

You cannot falsify God either. What you can do is believe the scientific accuracies of the bible were all just lucky guesses and hand wave them away.

You have nonsense as evidence for impact theory and big bang and then have the front to ridicule others that at least can produce a book that demonstrates without doubt inspiration from a higher being. That alone is more evidence/support for creationst stance 'God did it' than you've got for naturalistic occurances.

The bible is therefore proven to be inspired, and therefore is a reliable source to assert and state God did it as claimed, and not necessarily using physics we currently understand.

Your researchers need to go back to relying on the bible as factual and seeking the science behind it. If they finally start asking the right questions they may finally start getting answers and theoretical research data that supports rather than challenges any current paradigm. Any theory is only as good as the assumption it is based on. Atheist assumptions are incorrect. Therefore you can expect your theoretical science to remain in the huge mess it currently is in, with theories that don't add up and are challenged, not understood, revised or thrown out. eg dark matter, multiple dimensions

Neither can you falsify that a deity was not in conscious control of the physics at play in the causation of the universe or the moon, regardless of whether the earth is at the centre or not.

The first true science book, the bible, is proof a biblical God exists, as it contains inspired knowledge. This is all that is required to 'prove' God did it. The bible does not explain alot about how He created and those are answers for mankind to search for.

God uses physics that mankind is yet to even think about let alone understand. The point being if God did not interceed with intention, the universe and mankind would not be here. There would have been no coalescence of matter as demonstrated by the precision and mathematical unlikelyhood required for coalescence to occur.

God is the creator of the physics that apply to this universe and this is proven by an inspired book that states so, which is more than you can provide at present for any alternative view
 
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Astridhere

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and the earth...

You conveniently left that out. In the very first sentence the Bible is wrong. The earth didn't come along for about 8 BILLION years.

And since I have no idea what happened to cause the expansion we refer to as the Big Bang I have no idea if there could have been a "before" so no... I don't accept that the kindergarten description of the beginning in Genesis is relevant.

No one left anything out. The opening phase is then defined and is perfectly aligned with what is observed. Big Bang is nothing more than a muddle. What is observed is all galaxies speeding away from the earth. The rest is theoretical.

The earth was created first with an expanse, (the heavens as opposed to the void), just like the bible states.

There is now a theory that supports earth being at the centre of the universe and aligns with the theory of general relativity and sounds better than big bang as it does not require the nonsense of dark matter and ridiculous multiple dimensions.

Mathematicians’ theory means Earth may be the center of the universe « Thoughts En Route

Where do you lot get the front to have a shot at any creationist assertion or interpretation whilst replacing true science with the story telling of fables like big bang and impact theory that makes no sense.
 
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Phred

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Phred, I hope you see the hypocritical standard you are seeking.

You cannot falsify God either.
Because there's nothing to falsify. Give me one single truth about God. One thing that God IS. You can't. That's why your God can't be falsified. Because your God can't be shown to exist. You harp on this, "you can't falsify God" thing like it's a triumph. It's not a triumph, it's an admission that you can't put forth a single fact that can be falsified.

What you can do is believe the scientific accuracies of the bible were all just lucky guesses and hand wave them away.
The Bible was written by men who knew what men knew at the time they were alive. It shows. It was not written (or inspired) by a god who knows everything there is to know. The very first sentence is wrong. So there are some things that are correct. I would expect men smart enough to be able to write would be observant enough to see the world around them. At the same time I would also expect that these men would see the sun as going around the earth, see the sun as being able to be stopped in the sky, see the earth as the center of the universe and so on.

You have nonsense as evidence for impact theory and big bang
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

and then have the front to ridicule others that at least can produce a book that demonstrates without doubt inspiration from a higher being.
But it doesn't. It doesn't at all. There's nothing about the Bible that shows it's the product of a higher being. Not. One. Thing.

That alone is more evidence/support for creationst stance 'God did it' than you've got for naturalistic occurances.
If it were true it would be evidence for a tricky, misleading being that most likely was lying in the book since all the physical evidence says otherwise.

The bible is therefore proven to be inspired,
Again, it's not. It's not proven to be inspired and thus God is not proven to exist.

and therefore is a reliable source to assert and state God did it as claimed, and not necessarily using physics we currently understand.
You wish.

Your researchers need to go back to relying on the bible as factual and seeking the science behind it
Scientists tried that for the last two thousand years. It doesn't work. The Bible is to fractured and too antiquated. It's obviously false. Sorry... can't do that anymore. You and your book had your chance. It failed. Stop trying to condemn us to doing it any more.

If they finally start asking the right questions they may finally start getting answers and theoretical research data that supports rather than challenges any current paradigm. Any theory is only as good as the assumption it is based on.
A theory is only as good as the EVIDENCE it's based upon.

Atheist assumptions are incorrect.
If only you could prove that. So far, and it's been a LOOOOOONG time... no gods have been shown to actually exist. Thus all science is atheistic. Or at least agnostic. We don't rule a deity out but the darned thing has to make its presence known.

Therefore you can expect your theoretical science to remain in the huge mess it currently is in, with theories that don't add up and are challenged, not understood, revised or thrown out. eg dark matter, multiple dimensions
It's not in a mess. That's how we progress. We put out hypothesis and try to prove them. If they fail well, ok, we learned something. You'd have us give up and just throw our hands in the air and say, "goddidit" and that's it. So far "goddidit" hasn't ever gotten us anything but dead people.

Neither can you falsify that a deity was not in conscious control of the physics at play in the causation of the universe or the moon, regardless of whether the earth is at the centre or not.
Again, I can't falsify it because you can't offer any evidence that your half-baked idea is in any way remotely true. In order to falsify something you have to give me something to falsify. "goddidit" isn't an hypothesis. It's just a statement of faith.

The first true science book, the bible, is proof a biblical God exists, as it contains inspired knowledge. This is all that is required to 'prove' God did it. The bible does not explain alot about how He created and those are answers for mankind to search for.
It's not a science book. It's wrong about far too much. It's not proof that God or any god exists. And it doesn't explain at all how the world or the universe was created.

God uses physics that mankind is yet to even think about let alone understand. The point being if God did not interceed with intention, the universe and mankind would not be here. There would have been no coalescence of matter as demonstrated by the precision and mathematical unlikelyhood required for coalescence to occur.

God is the creator of the physics that apply to this universe and this is proven by an inspired book that states so, which is more than you can provide at present for any alternative view
Um, no. The Bible isn't at all relevant and any alternative view is far more acceptable than a 4,000 year old book of fairy stories.
 
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Split Rock

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You don't have diddly.

You have what you might interpret as evidence, but that can lead to phlogiston, wonder drugs and 7-man firecrackers.

Let's have at look at the scoreboard against and for science:

AGAINST
1. phlogiston
2. wonder drugs
3. 7-man firecrackers <edit>

FOR
1. Vaccines
2. Antibiotics
3. Surgery
4. Anesthesia
5. Thermodynamics
6. Evolution
7. Cell theory
8. Germ theory
9. Gravity
10. Moon missions
11. Recycling
12. Aircraft
13. Radio
14. Radar
15. Sonar
16. Meteorology
17. Satellites
18. Jet engines
19. Refrigeration
20. Telecommunication
21. Computers
22. The internet
23. Television
24. Nutrition
25. Plant pathology
26. Plant and Animal breeding
27. Veternary medicine
28. Thermoplastics
29. Artificial organs
30. Organ transplants

And that's just the top 30 off the top of my head. :wave:
 
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Loudmouth

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You cannot falsify God either.

That is the entire problem. There is no evidence we could ever show you that would falsify God. God is unfalsifiable. That's what makes it such a poor explanation.

You have nonsense as evidence . . .

Your opinion is pretty worthless at this point. There is no evidence that will budge your opinion. You have made this quite clear.

That alone is more evidence/support for creationst stance 'God did it' than you've got for naturalistic occurances.


False dichotomy. Disproving a scientific theory does not evidence magical poofing.
 
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Phred

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No one left anything out. The opening phase is then defined and is perfectly aligned with what is observed.
No, the opening phrase is wrong. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Except in the beginning God didn't create the heavens and the earth because they were not created at the same time.

Big Bang is nothing more than a muddle.
I'm sorry but simply because you can't understand the origins of the universe is not cause to call it a muddle. We understand the beginning of the universe to a fraction of a second after the singularity began to expand. That's hardly a muddle.

What is observed is all galaxies speeding away from the earth. The rest is theoretical.
What is observed is the expansion of the universe. It's like a loaf of raisin bread. Because the dough is expanding all the raisins seem to be moving away from each other.

The earth was created first with an expanse, (the heavens as opposed to the void), just like the bible states.
It was not. The Bible was written by semi-ignorant men who simply didn't have the slightest idea how the universe came to be. You're trying to shoehorn their fairy tale into modern knowledge.

There is now a theory that supports earth being at the centre of the universe and aligns with the theory of general relativity and sounds better than big bang as it does not require the nonsense of dark matter and ridiculous multiple dimensions.
Sigh... when you don't know what you're talking about you shouldn't talk. From the actual article not some idiot's creationist rehash:

Mathematicians Blake Temple and Joel Smoller developed a new theory: Earth sits near the center of an expanding wave that began after the Big Bang.

Note the word "near". Not at the center of the universe but in a place where our observations would be skewed.

But cosmologists say that the new expansion theory has problems. First, observations of the Big Bang's afterglow also indicate the existence of dark energy. Simulations also fit rather well with the observed universe expansion when dark energy becomes a factor.

And of course:

For now, the mathematician duo hopes to work out a testable prediction that can truly pit theory against observation.

It's not even really a theory. There are no testable predictions, nothing they can do to show anything... it's like string theory. Elegant but not really all that useful.

Still, you creationists will manhandle anything to try and get your way.

Where do you lot get the front to have a shot at any creationist assertion or interpretation whilst replacing true science with the story telling of fables like big bang and impact theory that makes no sense.
Because we can tell the difference between what is known and what is fable. You can't.
 
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cupid dave

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No, the opening phrase is wrong. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Except in the beginning God didn't create the heavens and the earth because they were not created at the same time.

You are wrong on that.

At the instant of the Big bang, anti-matter disappeared and all the matter, which is now present, appeared in a condensed state from which the Universe appeared as it expanded.
 
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cupid dave

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But it doesn't. By your standards I can show Star Wars says basically the same thing. So does every religion. I can cherry pick facts, show that some fit, then claim that by association all fit. Your "logic" doesn't make Genesis scientifically sound. It just makes a snippet here and there fit with a fact.


Start at the beginning. You dismiss anything that doesn't fit, you look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist. You blame the inaccuracies on those that find them. Then you harp on God. But you can't find a scientific wisp of data to prove your god exists. How can you claim that Genesis is scientifically sound when it relies upon the existence of a being that CANNOT BE SHOWN TO EXIST?

Yes, you KEEP reminding us of your opinion,... especially concerning what I post.

Please try responding directly to the points made, and we will ALL remember you ARE on the other side of the issue.
 
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Phred

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You are wrong on that.

At the instant of the Big bang, anti-matter disappeared and all the matter, which is now present, appeared in a condensed state from which the Universe appeared as it expanded.
Um... no.

Not even close.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Let's have at look at the scoreboard against and for science:

AGAINST
1. phlogiston
2. wonder drugs
3. 7-man firecrackers <edit>
FOR
1. Vaccines
2. Antibiotics
3. Surgery
4. Anesthesia
5. Thermodynamics
6. Evolution
7. Cell theory
8. Germ theory
9. Gravity
10. Moon missions
11. Recycling
12. Aircraft
13. Radio
14. Radar
15. Sonar
16. Meteorology
17. Satellites
18. Jet engines
19. Refrigeration
20. Telecommunication
21. Computers
22. The internet
23. Television
24. Nutrition
25. Plant pathology
26. Plant and Animal breeding
27. Veternary medicine
28. Thermoplastics
29. Artificial organs
30. Organ transplants

And that's just the top 30 off the top of my head. :wave:[/quote

Are you implying the bible believers reject these scientific advances, or would have thwarted them if given the power? :wave:
 
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Belk

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Let's have at look at the scoreboard against and for science:

AGAINST
1. phlogiston
2. wonder drugs
3. 7-man firecrackers (ha, ha, lets make jokes about dead people :clap:)

FOR
1. Vaccines
2. Antibiotics
3. Surgery
4. Anesthesia
5. Thermodynamics
6. Evolution
7. Cell theory
8. Germ theory
9. Gravity
10. Moon missions
11. Recycling
12. Aircraft
13. Radio
14. Radar
15. Sonar
16. Meteorology
17. Satellites
18. Jet engines
19. Refrigeration
20. Telecommunication
21. Computers
22. The internet
23. Television
24. Nutrition
25. Plant pathology
26. Plant and Animal breeding
27. Veternary medicine
28. Thermoplastics
29. Artificial organs
30. Organ transplants

And that's just the top 30 off the top of my head. :wave:[/quote

Are you implying the bible believers reject these scientific advances, or would have thwarted them if given the power? :wave:

:confused:

No, I don't think that was what he was implying at all. It was in response to AV's consistent rhetoric against science because humans are not infallible.

That said, some bible believers did and still do reject these advances and likely would thwart them if they had the power.
 
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cupid dave

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Since science tries to answer the question "how" and religion at best can offer an answer to the question "who" the attempt to picture them as playing on the same level is absurd.

"Who"is the guy that KNEW 3362 years ago that the tectonic plates move and that once all the waters under heaven had been gathered together into one place"... and Pangea/(Rodinia) appeared as a single continent.








9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, (Panthalassa), and let the dry land appear ,...

pangea2.jpg


... (like Pangea): and it was so.
 
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Split Rock

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Are you implying the bible believers reject these scientific advances, or would have thwarted them if given the power? :wave:

No, I don't think that was what he was implying at all. It was in response to AV's consistent rhetoric against science because humans are not infallible.

That said, some bible believers did and still do reject these advances and likely would thwart them if they had the power.

As Belk said, I was responding to AVET's post, where he, like he does often here, brought up the same rehash of "scientist" mistakes. The point he seems to be making is that science is unreliable, unlike his interpretation of the bible. The other point he likes to make is that science is evil and knowledge makes us fools, or God makes us fools for pursuing scientifc knowledge. Science is so evil, in fact, that the Anti-Christ himself will be a scientist. He's not the only creationist here denigrating science.. dad is another good example.
 
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quatona

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"Who"is the guy that KNEW 3362 years ago that the tectonic plates move and that once all the waters under heaven had been gathered together into one place"... and Pangea/(Rodinia) appeared as a single continent.








9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, (Panthalassa), and let the dry land appear ,...

pangea2.jpg


... (like Pangea): and it was so.
I´m sure you are trying to make a point. I just don´t know what it might be.
 
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