[911 edit] Married men and sex

[LinkH]

The funny thing is the double standard..GASP how dare you say " I prefer a divorce ..thats horrible'..but yet its in RESPONSE to a direct threat of have sex with me or I'll find someone else ....

Its the classic..the bully getting beat up after picking a fight..then crying 'they beat me up"!

It isn't good if anyone threatens their spouse with divorce in an argument. There is a rule in my home. My wife and I are not to throw the 'D' word around-- not the 'D' word that Clark Gable said, the D word for that thing God hates.

It's better if kids don't fight, and just share their toys nicely.

 

[pobodysnerfect]

No person has a right to sin and then blame someone else for it. We are all accountable for our actions, inactions and choices.

However, we are also called as individuals NOT to cause another to stumble.

If I can help ease the temptation of sexual sin in my dh, I will do so.

I truly cannot understand all the resistance to this topic when we are not discussing sex with monstrous men, but just the average run of the mill, hardworking, honest, loyal, faithful, imperfect but doing their best to be loving husbands.

 

[JRSut1000]

Totally with you pobodysnerpfect (seriuosly, all this time I thought it was 'nobodysperfect'!!). I was thinking the same - most of us arent married to horrible men! Just humans (as we ourselves are human too). So why are 'we' so overprotective and defensive about it?

 

[LinkH]

It would be curious to find out about the views of headship and submission for those who believe in the two views

1. 'sex whenever possible when my partner wants it'

versus

2. 'sex whenever possible when we both want it.'

My guess is the more traditional view of headship and submission goes with 1. I might even venture to guess that 1 would be more common with a traditional view of headship and submission when the wife is the one with the stronger sex drive.

It would make for an interesting research question if anyone wants to speak up. I doubt we'll get a representative sample, though.

 

[JRSut1000]

My husband and I are fairly traditional, but we believe the verse 1 Corin 7:3-5 is a mutual responsiblity.

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Strangely enough, we don't believe in mutual headship/submission (we're complementarians), but sex is a 'mutual affair'.

 

[LinkH]

I truly cannot understand all the resistance to this topic when we are not discussing sex with monstrous men, but just the average run of the mill, hardworking, honest, loyal, faithful, imperfect but doing their best to be loving husbands.

I might have missed some posts, but I think twice I've brought up the issue that Peter told women married to men who did not obey the word to submit to their husbands 'even as Sarah obeyed Abraham calling him lord.'

There would have had to have been some unbelieving husband husband in that male-dominated society who demanded sex from his wife. And Peter wrote to wives to submit. Wouldn't refusing, especially for not good reason, be unsubmissive?

Wouldn't a loving wife with a submissive heart who knew her godly Christian husband wanted to make love be inclined to say 'yes' if there were no circumstances that prevented it?

I don't think anyone has commented on this line of reasoning.

On the flip side, if the man loves his wife like Christ loved the church, and Christ suffered excruciating pain in his body for the sake of His bride, wouldn't a loving husband 'endure' pleasure that he might not otherwise have wanted to satisfy his wife's sexual desires and needs and to take the edge off of temptation for her?

Both lines of thought lead me to the conclusion of the spouse who doesn't particularly desire it giving to the spouse who wants it.

 

[LinkH]

My husband and I are fairly traditional, but we believe the verse 1 Corin 7:3-5 is a mutual responsiblity.

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Strangely enough, we don't believe in mutual headship/submission (we're complementarians), but sex is a 'mutual affair'.

I would say I agree with your stance on this, but it also seems to me that if a wife is submissive to her husband and respects him and has a meek and quiet spirit, it pervades every area of their married life and affects the bedroom. I think I can say that is my experience. I believe the same is true of a man who truly loves his wife with Christlike love.

 

[Athene]

I wrote a response to this but it didn't go through. So I'll do an abridged version.

I think you are wired differently from certain other people. For some people, the need for sex is perceived as a physical need-- a need for physical release. It can also be a deep-seated emotional need. I suppose I could say maybe you don't understand the male psyche, but I know that there are also women who consider sex with their husbands a need like this who suffer when the husband does not put for the effort to satisfy her. You see this on inappropriate content addiction threads.

<snip>

It's the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] which is the need, and that can be achieved without penetrative sex. hth

Don't you think you might be edging towards manipulation in this here post. If a woman isn't menstruating or ill then what reason does she have to 'deny' her husband. And apparently it's unethical for her to deny him. You also chucked in that old chestnut ''submit to your husband''. That's all very guilt trippy, do your duty, you have an obligation etc

To me, it reads like a big ''how dare you deny your husband sex, don't you know you should submit to him? Don't you know he needs sex? Don't you know he will be tempted to sin and you will be partly responsible?

Only 10% of women regularly have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during intercourse. Maybe, just maybe, if men were better in bed then women would want to have more sex with them. I can't imagine anything more dull then having unwanted sex with a guy who really doesn't have a clue how to pleasure a woman. Looking at it from that angle, it makes perfect sense why many women report avoiding sex.

I think that the way forward is for women to have more confidence, to be comfortable asking for what they want and to refuse sex if it's just not very good.

 

[Athene]

I would say I agree with your stance on this, but it also seems to me that if a wife is submissive to her husband and respects him and has a meek and quiet spirit, it pervades every area of their married life and affects the bedroom. I think I can say that is my experience. I believe the same is true of a man who truly loves his wife with Christlike love.

yes well, it's hardly rocket science. A meek submissive woman who believes she must obey her husband in everything, is hardly going to turn down her husband. Doesn't believe she has the right, poor thing.

 

[JRSut1000]

What I have to ask is... how hard is 15 minutes to someone you married because you loved them?? Marriage wasnt always for love when Paul gave instructions concerning marriage, how much easier should it be to us who actually married for love?

Sorry, we in our culture make waaaaaaay too many excuses for everything, we're just a selfish people.

 

[JRSut1000]

Let's not get into that whole submission topic again, there's plenty of other [closed] threads for that! Whether you're complementarian or 'mutual submission', either way the issue remains - we shouldnt be turning our spouses down on a whim or cuz we're tired or don't feel like it. It's just plain selfish and childish.

 

[Athene]

What I have to ask is... how hard is 15 minutes to someone you married because you loved them?? Marriage wasnt always for love when Paul gave instructions concerning marriage, how much easier should it be to us who actually married for love?

Sorry, we in our culture make waaaaaaay too many excuses for everything, we're just a selfish people.

Quickies have their place, but all things considered. I'm not a blow-up doll, I want sex that is going to pleasure me too and a 15 minute quickie just doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[JRSut1000]

No one ever said you were a blow-up doll. Why put such a horrid label on husbands? We think most husbands are selfish, but in reality don't women as a whole refuse their husbands just as much if not more frequently than them going too fast?

 

[Athene]

Let's not get into that whole submission topic again, there's plenty of other [closed] threads for that! Whether you're complementarian or 'mutual submission', either way the issue remains - we shouldnt be turning our spouses down on a whim or cuz we're tired or don't feel like it. It's just plain selfish and childish.

It's neither selfish nor childish. Manipulation and guilt tripping otoh is extremely selfish, and childish.

 

[JRSut1000]

It's also childish to say "well he's not doing his share, why do I have to do mine?" We could go round and round all day and night about 'well I'd do this if he did that or well what about him?' but it just doesn't cut it. We're called to fulfill our end of the bargain and obey Scripture, whether life's events turn out perfectly or not. Unless adultery is involved or one's life is in danger, then I see no good reason to play this blame game in marriages.

 

[LinkH]

It's the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] which is the need, and that can be achieved without penetrative sex. hth

That issue has crossed my mind during these posts, but I think there are limits to how graphic we can be in our discussion. We can have a slightly broader definition of 'sex' with your spouse to include anything that isn't sinful.

Don't you think you might be edging towards manipulation in this here post. If a woman isn't menstruating or ill then what reason does she have to 'deny' her husband. And apparently it's unethical for her to deny him. You also chucked in that old chestnut ''submit to your husband''. That's all very guilt trippy, do your duty, you have an obligation etc

I am discussing and trying to interpret what I believe the Bible teaches. My wife doesn't do forums like this. She isn't here, so there would be no reason for me to have a selfish motive to try to manipulate anyone. Is there anything wrong with the line of reasoning I presented, or do you just not like the conclusion it leads to?

I think we as Christians should take the scriptures seriously. The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands, and we should take it seriously, whether or not it has been discussed a lot. I Corinthians 7 says to "Defraud ye not one another except it be with consent for a time...." I'm just pointing that kind of stuff out. Does that mean I'm being manipulative?

To me, it reads like a big ''how dare you deny your husband sex, don't you know you should submit to him? Don't you know he needs sex? Don't you know he will be tempted to sin and you will be partly responsible?

For most of my posts in this thread, I've used a lot of gender neutral language. A certain percentage of women wish their husbands would pay them a lot more attention, sexually. They wish they knew their men realized they needed sex, and that they could be tempted if they don't get it. I suppose a husband in this type of marriage could be convicted by my discussion of the 'husbands love your wives' passage as it applies to sex.

My question is, why shouldn't a woman, or a man, take this line of reasoning seriously?

Only 10% of women regularly have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during intercourse. Maybe, just maybe, if men were better in bed then women would want to have more sex with them. I can't imagine anything more dull then having unwanted sex with a guy who really doesn't have a clue how to pleasure a woman. Looking at it from that angle, it makes perfect sense why many women report avoiding sex.

I had no idea that the figures were so high. That makes sense as a reason for some women not wanting sex. Men need to put forth some effort to learn some skills. Or maybe not all women's bodies are the same. It would be interesting to know what the sample is. If a lot of women are with really young fornicators, the numbers make a little more sense. Maybe these couples are doing things besides intercourse to make up for the shortfall. If the woman isn't getting her needs met when the couple have sex, that may not help her as much with resisting temptation.

I think that the way forward is for women to have more confidence, to be comfortable asking for what they want and to refuse sex if it's just not very good.

Why not just communicate the need to make it better?

 

[Athene]

No one ever said you were a blow-up doll. Why put such a horrid label on husbands? We think most husbands are selfish, but in reality don't women as a whole refuse their husbands just as much if not more frequently than them going too fast?

What horrid label on husbands? I was commenting on your ''15 minutes'' statement. Where does foreplay fit in that 15 minutes? How many women are going to get any real pleasure out of 15 minutes worth of sex? It takes women, on average, more time to become aroused then men, and more time during sex to achieve climax. 15 minutes is nothing. Do you feel it's important for women to have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during sex?

Women as a whole refuse their husbands? If that was the case then there would be far far fewer unwanted pregnancies and the worlds population wouldn't have just reached 7 billion.

 

[JRSut1000]

If I'm correct, many unwanted pregnancies are out-of-wedlock and not in Christian marriages. That is what we're talking about right? Sex within Christian marriages?

 

[Athene]

link, i've seen your recent post but it's pretty late here and I'm heading to bed. Just letting you know I'm not ignoring it, will reply in the morning.

 

[Athene]

If I'm correct, many unwanted pregnancies are out-of-wedlock and not in Christian marriages. That is what we're talking about right? Sex within Christian marriages?

You said ''women as a whole''.

Definitely going to bed now.