[911 edit] Married men and sex

[pobodysnerfect]

So by the same reasoning WANTING less sex isn't selfish but actually refusing is.

For clarity I'm not at all saying that any "no" is selfish, but a pattern of refusal absolutely can be every bit as selfish as demaning more sex is.

yup.

 

[dallasapple]

I totally get this, Dallas, only for us it's the opposite. I'm more touchy-feely-cuddly and am pretty much up for that kind of company or comfort at any given time with dh (not necessarily sexually, but whatever). Dh, however, is notsomuch the same and will hit his "touch quota" long before I do. Sometimes that means that for his sake I need to back off and give him space so he can relax in the way that is best for him at that time even if I'd rather be all over him. Its just respecting his boundaries and putting his needs first in that moment. The same can be applied to respecting someone's desire not to be pursued sexually when they don't feel like it. It's just plain old respectful.

See my husband is ALL physical..not just sex..hes ALL over me all the time.(not anymore but ..)..the amount of touch he tried to FORCE out of me was just so overwhelming that his insistance (continuing to after I said stop) just drove me to want to scream and pull my hair out..maddening..all the while sayign things liek I didnt LOVE him ..or I was as its being eluded to here "stingy and selfish"..just because I feel SUFFOCATED with all that touch ...that for ANYONE would be a lot..not just me..So it was a never ending need for sex..and in between grabbing groping hugging slapping on the rear all of it..TOO much for me..

When someone just WILL not accept thats a difference and I couldnt CHANGE it..and I can NOT fake that I LIKE that much touch..it makes you want to just run in the opposite direction when you see them..or go hide when you hear them walk in the house..trying to chase someone down and get them to 'change their mind" is unfair to both..I wasnt and HAVENT changed in 23 years..and he tried every trick and every THREAT in the book..I have never LIKED or wanted that much physical contact as he does..and I probably never will..Im not selfish and neither is he..we are different..I setteld that it was maybe inevitable that we shoudl just GET a divorce..he said no he wants ME!..Im like O.K then you can have ME in the doses I have to give..YOu cant say you want me then tell me Im not enough and need to change something about me thats IMPOSSIBLE for me to change ..thats unfair..Him trying to force it on me drove me all the way into a shell where I HID from him all together.

Dallas

 

[His Wife]

I need to get back to work, but I wanted to reply to this before I take off.

This is a reason why I get "nit picky" about words, because it changed what I am trying to express when my words get changed (ie.....what I'm saying gets misconstrued.) I didn't post that I "didn't *want* sex. I have posted enough about that for everyone to not that goes against my beliefs. I posted that (even though just a hypothetical)..."I wasn't really in the mood". In other words.....I did so out of wanting to please my husband.....which was the main motivating factor.

No need to be saddened, BTW. Each time is *wanted*.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[His Wife]

I have nothing to add to what LinkH juts said - it's perfect! From a woman's perspective to answer his question directly - I don't have a problem with my hsuband touching me and wanting me and 'taking me'.

When i first got married to him, I was REALLY shy, i even cried on our wedding night, lol. No abuse or anything, it was just all so new and overwhelming. FF> about 3 years... You wouldn't believe I'm the same woman, haha!

I think people make up excuses to do whatever they want or to not to what they don't want to do. I think at least 80% of the time, a woman turning her husband down is just plain selfish and inexcusable.

I definitely agree here!

 

[dallasapple]

So by the same reasoning WANTING less sex isn't selfish but actually refusing is.

For clarity I'm not at all saying that any "no" is selfish, but a pattern of refusal absolutely can be every bit as selfish as demaning more sex is.

No its NOT..when you are being asked do you want to have sex and the anser is NO I dont..thats the truth and its not selfish.its not selfish to NOT engage in SEXUAL activity thats not wanted..its a fundamental RIGHT..check with your local law enforcement they will tell you the difference ...there is nothing selfish about not engaging in unwanted sex..trying to force someone into it under trheat is diabolical..beyond selfish..Especially if they then expect you to FAKE that its something you want during the actual coereced sexual act its beyond selfish its disturbing.

Dallas

 

[His Wife]

I'm sorry, but if I didn't give my husband sex because it's a very real need for him (and every other at least 90% of the male population), then I can't say I'd blame him for entertaining some thoughts of finding sexual fulfillment elsewhere (I know he wouldn't, and I don't advocate any man acting on these thoughts).

Any woman would be appalled at the idea of her husband cheating and rightfully so, but every man also has the right to be appalled at the wife who refuses him. This isn't exactly faithfulness either.

SUCH a fabulous point here. I read your post to my husband and he sent you a high five through the air. This is a great post.

 

[His Wife]

No person has a right to sin and then blame someone else for it. We are all accountable for our actions, inactions and choices.

However, we are also called as individuals NOT to cause another to stumble.

If I can help ease the temptation of sexual sin in my dh, I will do so.

I truly cannot understand all the resistance to this topic when we are not discussing sex with monstrous men, but just the average run of the mill, hardworking, honest, loyal, faithful, imperfect but doing their best to be loving husbands.

Precisely. Great post.

 

[His Wife]

What I have to ask is... how hard is 15 minutes to someone you married because you loved them?? Marriage wasnt always for love when Paul gave instructions concerning marriage, how much easier should it be to us who actually married for love?

Sorry, we in our culture make waaaaaaay too many excuses for everything, we're just a selfish people.

You're my hero. I agree.

 

[His Wife]

It's also childish to say "well he's not doing his share, why do I have to do mine?" We could go round and round all day and night about 'well I'd do this if he did that or well what about him?' but it just doesn't cut it. We're called to fulfill our end of the bargain and obey Scripture, whether life's events turn out perfectly or not. Unless adultery is involved or one's life is in danger, then I see no good reason to play this blame game in marriages.

Yet another!

 

[His Wife]

I'm really confused by all of this "consenting" stuff. No, I'm not an advocate of marital rape, and yes, I do understand that it happens. However, I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, believe that anything less than complete consent is wrong. Nor do I believe a man is wrong to try and pursue his wife, even if she's not in the mood. She's his wife, it's his God-given right to pursue her.

I had a horrible day today. The stress of the day was beating me down that, by the time I got home, I was cold, sweaty, sticky, hungry and felt worn down. I felt like I could burst into tears. I got home and my husband had made the bed and lit candles that he put around the room just because he knows I love a candlelit room. He pursued me, and we had a fabulous time being one with each other.

Honestly, by the time I got home I was so exhausted I almost backed out of the intimacy we had decided to have when I got home. It's baffling to me to hear that, according to some, he shouldn't have even tried to help me get in the mood. That, knowing(as I'm sure he did) that I may not be in the mood, he shouldn't have even wanted it if there was a chance I didn't. That is, frankly, appalling to me. I would be devastated if he acted that towards me, and I would be ashamed of myself if that's how I acted towards him.

His attraction to me makes me feel beautiful. His desire for me makes me feel sexy and wanted and enjoyable. Fun. I can see in cases where there's been infidelity or unfaithfulness that those things may trigger painful memories or emotions, but since we've been speaking of relatively healthy marriages, I don't get the hostility towards sex.

Did I give up my right to consent when I married? No. But, honestly, I never even thought, "We're getting married, so we're gonna have sex! Oh, well, only if I consent first." In my mind, he was a good guy, we loved each other, so the getting married part was the consent. I mean, I vowed to be faithful and to love him and only him until death parted us, and to both of us that meant, "Hey! We can have sex now whenever we want!" I never imagined being married and having to consent to sex or wait for my spouse to consent to sex. Never imagined it.

And he doesn't try to get me in the mood just for himself. In fact, I don't think most of it was for himself. He could care less about candles and romance. But he knew it was important to me. Seeing the beautiful gesture, I made the choice to put what I felt aside, and to act on what I knew: that I loved him, and he loved me, and I wanted to show him that love by being selfless, as he had just been selfless.

 

[Johnnz]

That's where it should be in marriage, especially Christian ones. It's important that those with some past bad experiences are not seen as either normative or setting the benchmark. They have their own history to deal with. They may well have mountains to climb. But His Wife is expressing something that does not require modification or reservations. It can stand as it is because it is valid.

John
NZ

 

[Psalm63]

I had a horrible day today. The stress of the day was beating me down that, by the time I got home, I was cold, sweaty, sticky, hungry and felt worn down. I felt like I could burst into tears. I got home and my husband had made the bed and lit candles that he put around the room just because he knows I love a candlelit room. He pursued me, and we had a fabulous time being one with each other. .

The way is USED to be is that I was overwhelmed with stress and he came home and put his feet up and watched TV while I took care of everything and when we got in bed I could "perform" because (due to childhood abuses) I could dissociate from how I was treated and have sex at the drop of a hat (more like a man)

NOW, he comes home, comes to the kitchen and either starts dinner (if I'm not home yet) or asks me how he can help, and hangs out with me some We both prefer to wait until morning if our schedules permit because we are both older, busy, and tired at night. And our schedules do permit. So we hang out together, maybe take a walk and talk, then have sex.

Before, the atmosphere was not "benevolent". I was taken for granted and was treated like a servant not a friend. I take responsibility for allowing it I was trained in childhood in a very extreme degree of submission and having no voice and it took some very hard, painful work for me to recover and heal.

It sounds like you have a benevolent marriage and your husband has none of the behavior which comes along with inappropriate content use. But in a thread about "men and sex" the dimension of inappropriate content exposure and its impact can't be ignored because it is epidemic.

 

[Psalm63]

Anyways, IMO, a man who doesn't want to have sex unless his wife really wants it as well is not a wimpy, cowardly man, he is a self-sacrificing man who is putting his wife's needs in the moment above his own. That takes a heck of a lot more strength and Christ-like-ness than pushing the issue using spiritual manipulation, guilt-tripping, veiled threats, etc. JUST to get one's own desires met.

If you and your husband have had nothing but a BENEVOLENT marriage, don't take it personally!

As far as I can tell, dallas, dreamer, and I are ALL saying our marriages are vastly improved and our husbands are NOW willing to lay down life and be sacrificial in a way we had not seen/experienced before, and we appreciate them for it.

And, just to be really honest, I'm not sure a marriage before the 5 year mark is representative/realistic? I consider them "newlyweds". Things sizzled and there were not the same issues then.... eg I don't hear in those posts about a passel of children needing baths and getting up at 10,2, 4, and 6 to nurse, etc.

And TBH, it bothers me on this thread that I've seen no mature long married men say anything about unrealistic sexual expectations. To leave young people expecting its always going to be like the honeymoon/newlywed bliss kinda short changes them and sets them up for divorce when the bloom fades IMO

 

[LinkH]

And, just to be really honest, I'm not sure a marriage before the 5 year mark is representative/realistic? I consider them "newlyweds". Things sizzled and there were not the same issues then.... eg I don't hear in those posts about a passel of children needing baths and getting up at 10,2, 4, and 6 to nurse, etc.

And TBH, it bothers me on this thread that I've seen no mature long married men say anything about unrealistic sexual expectations. To leave young people expecting its always going to be like the honeymoon/newlywed bliss kinda short changes them and sets them up for divorce when the bloom fades IMO

I've been married 11 years, which could be considered short by some people on the forum. I bathed two kids, and cut one kids hair and had him take a bath tonight while my wife was out praying for someone. I would think the newly-wed sizzle either wears off in the first pregnancy or goes out the door all of a sudden when that first baby is born. At least for a time. I wonder how many couples wait 5 years to have the first baby?

As far as unrealistic sex expectations are concerned, I think most young folks are under the impression that old folks don't have sex, and when the fact that they aren't immortal settles in in their 30's, and they do have to face child-rearing and busy schedules, sexual expectations get a little more realistic.

I just think if a married person isn't getting as much sex as he or she would like, it should be because of the exhaustion, emergencies, and busy-ness of life, and not because one partner doesn't want to satisfy the other's needs because he/she isn't 'in the mood'. Married people need to make one another's sexual needs a priority and arrange their schedules to make it possible.

 

[Conservativation]

I'm really confused by all of this "consenting" stuff. No, I'm not an advocate of marital rape, and yes, I do understand that it happens. However, I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, believe that anything less than complete consent is wrong. Nor do I believe a man is wrong to try and pursue his wife, even if she's not in the mood. She's his wife, it's his God-given right to pursue her.

I had a horrible day today. The stress of the day was beating me down that, by the time I got home, I was cold, sweaty, sticky, hungry and felt worn down. I felt like I could burst into tears. I got home and my husband had made the bed and lit candles that he put around the room just because he knows I love a candlelit room. He pursued me, and we had a fabulous time being one with each other.

Honestly, by the time I got home I was so exhausted I almost backed out of the intimacy we had decided to have when I got home. It's baffling to me to hear that, according to some, he shouldn't have even tried to help me get in the mood. That, knowing(as I'm sure he did) that I may not be in the mood, he shouldn't have even wanted it if there was a chance I didn't. That is, frankly, appalling to me. I would be devastated if he acted that towards me, and I would be ashamed of myself if that's how I acted towards him.

His attraction to me makes me feel beautiful. His desire for me makes me feel sexy and wanted and enjoyable. Fun. I can see in cases where there's been infidelity or unfaithfulness that those things may trigger painful memories or emotions, but since we've been speaking of relatively healthy marriages, I don't get the hostility towards sex.

Did I give up my right to consent when I married? No. But, honestly, I never even thought, "We're getting married, so we're gonna have sex! Oh, well, only if I consent first." In my mind, he was a good guy, we loved each other, so the getting married part was the consent. I mean, I vowed to be faithful and to love him and only him until death parted us, and to both of us that meant, "Hey! We can have sex now whenever we want!" I never imagined being married and having to consent to sex or wait for my spouse to consent to sex. Never imagined it.

And he doesn't try to get me in the mood just for himself. In fact, I don't think most of it was for himself. He could care less about candles and romance. But he knew it was important to me. Seeing the beautiful gesture, I made the choice to put what I felt aside, and to act on what I knew: that I loved him, and he loved me, and I wanted to show him that love by being selfless, as he had just been selfless.

This is a good post, calming and gratifying to see. Ive stated before my belief that the man who is willing to not have sex has been elevated to that being the highest show of love in marriage, well, it is a show of love indeed. But like you frame your post, in the place where I hope people are, not having a horror story in the background, it looks like you said, and guess what, had you not gone ahead and had sex, that also would be fine. Maybe that bears repeating...had you not had sex, that also would be fine. "They" are blocking hearing that part for some reason. Your point is that over time, these instances as they arise shouldnt have the spectre of rejection, or the man shouldnt be made to feel afraid to even try for fear he is accused of all sorts of self centered things.

You will see a man who does face that, especially as he gets a little older and isn't as highly physically compelled about sex, he will just drop it, and the empty nest gets really polarized because what was ONE OF the bonds, and a unique one at that, is diminished at the time when it could afford a great way to fill the gap left by exiting kids and lots of time to be with each other.

There can be no rational finger pointing at this post that makes anyone righteously angry or afraid of anything.

 

[Athene]

That issue has crossed my mind during these posts, but I think there are limits to how graphic we can be in our discussion. We can have a slightly broader definition of 'sex' with your spouse to include anything that isn't sinful.

I was thinking of masturbation tbh.

I am discussing and trying to interpret what I believe the Bible teaches. My wife doesn't do forums like this. She isn't here, so there would be no reason for me to have a selfish motive to try to manipulate anyone. Is there anything wrong with the line of reasoning I presented, or do you just not like the conclusion it leads to?

To me your line of reasoning amounts to essentially ''if you loved me then you'd put out''. It's forcing people in to a desired course of action through implying that as they are, they are failing to love you, and the only way you will feel love is if they do exactly what you want them too. I.e manipulation. It doesn't appear to me to be a respectful or loving way to treat the person you promised to love, honour and cherish until death us do part.

As a mother of older children, in those talks we sometimes have, I tell them that if anyone tries this line on them, to run for the hills because it means the guy/woman is trying to manipulate them in to sex. Yet here we have a slightly more sophisticated version of that line being trotted out to use against married women.

I think we as Christians should take the scriptures seriously. The Bible tells wives to submit to their husbands, and we should take it seriously, whether or not it has been discussed a lot. I Corinthians 7 says to "Defraud ye not one another except it be with consent for a time...." I'm just pointing that kind of stuff out. Does that mean I'm being manipulative?

I'm not interested in making any kinds of moral judgements about your character.

For most of my posts in this thread, I've used a lot of gender neutral language. A certain percentage of women wish their husbands would pay them a lot more attention, sexually. They wish they knew their men realized they needed sex, and that they could be tempted if they don't get it. I suppose a husband in this type of marriage could be convicted by my discussion of the 'husbands love your wives' passage as it applies to sex.

In my marriage, I'm the one with the higher sex drive, I'm not tempted to stray because I love my husband and I don't want to be with anyone other then him. I read your post out to him and he arrived at a very similar conclusion to me.

My question is, why shouldn't a woman, or a man, take this line of reasoning seriously?

Because it's the same line of reasoning used by countless numbers of teenagers trying to get their girlfriends (and boyfriends I suppose) to sleep with them.

 

[Athene]

No person has a right to sin and then blame someone else for it. We are all accountable for our actions, inactions and choices.

However, we are also called as individuals NOT to cause another to stumble.

If I can help ease the temptation of sexual sin in my dh, I will do so.

I truly cannot understand all the resistance to this topic when we are not discussing sex with monstrous men, but just the average run of the mill, hardworking, honest, loyal, faithful, imperfect but doing their best to be loving husbands.

Because it seems a perversion of what sex should be about. Here you seem to present it, not as a mutually enjoyable and beneficial thing, but something the wife does for the husband so he can get off and therefore won't turn his attentions elsewhere. Earlier JRSUT(?) talked about if 15 minutes really matters, the implication being - just go get it over with because it's only for a few minutes.

Why wouldn't I resist this?

 

[Athene]

The Bible commands women to submit to their husband, and says that a meek and quiet spirit is in the sight of God, of great price.

Is it of great price to you?

strong women should not have to pretend to be weak so that weak men can pretend to be strong.

 

[c1ners]

IMO it's a matter of respect. We should respect each other enough to sometimes give in to a higher need and we also respect each other enough to realize that the higher need doesn't always have to be satisfied.

If my husband went to the trouble of setting up the house for a night of romance, there is no way I would turn him down. However, if I'm in the middle of cooking supper and he comes up and starts touching me all over, I may or may not give in and turn off supper.

And it goes the other way as well. If my husband is extremly tired or has a headache and is unresponsive to my wims, I have enough respect for him to back off. There are times when we both give in to the others desires, but for some reason those times never seem to make an impact. The times when we are both mutually responsive to each other are the time that I remember the most.

No, we don't have sex on a daily basis. Sometimes we don't even have it on a weekly basis. But when we do come together mutually it's always so much more...........

 

[Athene]

IMO it's a matter of respect. We should respect each other enough to sometimes give in to a higher need and we also respect each other enough to realize that the higher need doesn't always have to be satisfied.

If my husband went to the trouble of setting up the house for a night of romance, there is no way I would turn him down. However, if I'm in the middle of cooking supper and he comes up and starts touching me all over, I may or may not give in and turn off supper.

And it goes the other way as well. If my husband is extremly tired or has a headache and is unresponsive to my wims, I have enough respect for him to back off. There are times when we both give in to the others desires, but for some reason those times never seem to make an impact. The times when we are both mutually responsive to each other are the time that I remember the most.

No, we don't have sex on a daily basis. Sometimes we don't even have it on a weekly basis. But when we do come together mutually it's always so much more...........

I can't disagree with this And yeah, same with me and dh - the times when we both want it, are the best.