Let's talk about Ichneumonidae

[Grumpy Old Man]

I concede 'no', with our present knowledge we can't blame humans for the creation of them, but did you read my post?

<< Answer please

Isn't it reasonable to expect that humankind should have already evolved to the stage when we could educate Ichneumonidae (wow) how to peacefully co-exist, or substitute it with another creature?

Educate Ichneumonidae? Er, in my unprofessional opinion, no. I'm not even sure how one would even begin to do this. The domestication of the cat, dog, horse, etc did nothing to change their breeding techniques. I doubt domesticating an ichneumon wasp would change their breeding habits either.

Also, this raises another good point. What do you think is impeding our evolution considering that God commanded us to subdue the earth?

<< Answer please

I don't understand this question. I'm an atheist and therefore don't believe in God, or that he commanded us to subdue the earth. My question, in the OP I wrote, is essentially asking how Christians explain the violence of nature.

Secondly, I should say that I am not a biologist. I've read about evolution and I accept the science to be accurate, but I have no deep understanding of genetics or cellular biology to make a qualified statement on whether our evolution is being impeded at all in any regard. I would guess not, but again, I'm not qualified to answer. Go ask a biologist if you want a detailed answer.

 

[oi_antz]

Educate Ichneumonidae? Er, in my unprofessional opinion, no. I'm not even sure how one would even begin to do this. The domestication of the cat, dog, horse, etc did nothing to change their breeding techniques. I doubt domesticating an ichneumon wasp would change their breeding habits either.

Question: If it's beyond your capacity to imagine, does it make it impossible?

I can tell you I had a fox terrier dog several years ago, he was an expert rabbit hunter. After I explained to him about the rabbits having a life too, he never caught one after that. I imagine that given the right course of development, humans might be able to communicate with wasps.

I think it is good to keep an open mind, it lends more to understanding.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Question: If it's beyond your capacity to imagine, does it make it impossible?

I can tell you I had a fox terrier dog several years ago, he was an expert rabbit hunter. After I explained to him about the rabbits having a life too, he never caught one after that. I imagine that given the right course of development, humans might be able to communicate with wasps.

I think it is good to keep an open mind, it lends more to understanding.

You talked to a dog and he stopped eating rabbits? I'm going to have a very hard time believing that one. Sorry.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

No that is not what I want, but what I do want is a fair effort on your part to think of the reason yourself. You seem to want the answer on a silver platter, but how can I share my understanding with you if you won't dedicate some effort to thinking?

I've already given as detailed an answer as I can on whatever it was you asked regarding evolution and God's command to subdue the earth. I don't believe God gave such a command, therefore our evolution has nothing to do with it. I'm asking Christians how they can believe in the goodness of God when nature, which God called good, is violent.

 

[golgotha61]

I didn't stop believing because of the people in the Church. No, I stopped believing because I found that the Bible made no sense to me logically. The more I read about evolution, science, etc, the more realised the Bible could not be right. Even as a very young Christian I struggled to accept the Garden of Eden story.

My "problem" is that I still want to believe in God, but I just can't seem to do so in a way that appeases my reason. I simply cannot accept many of the silly Bible stories (talking snakes, talking donkeys, miracles, etc).

Just a quick note for you to contemplate: logic is God created and one of the laws that He uses and abides by. If you say you are using logic to arrive at your conclusions, then you are using God's law to make those judgments and by using logic, you are admitting God exists. I don't think you doubt His existence as much as you can't wrap your mind around the workings of God that cannot be tested or observed through the normal disciplines of the sciences.

 

[Question.Everything]

Question: If it's beyond your capacity to imagine, does it make it impossible?

I can tell you I had a fox terrier dog several years ago, he was an expert rabbit hunter. After I explained to him about the rabbits having a life too, he never caught one after that. I imagine that given the right course of development, humans might be able to communicate with wasps.

I think it is good to keep an open mind, it lends more to understanding.

Communicating with wasps? That's a bit unrealistic don't you think?

The perfect play (also called The Flood in some circles) would be to save 2 of the wasps that reproduce without destroying other creatures, and then destroy the species. They're all bad, they all should die.

Much easier than learning how to "talk" to all wasps.

 

[elman]

Again, the theory of evolution doesn't tell us how life on this planet started. It merely explains how life, as it exists now, evolved from a single dangly bit of DNA some 3 or 4 billions of years ago. Evolution can show you, from fossil records and DNA samples, the descendents of a species.

Furthermore, I don't really find it such a great leap of faith to believe that life on this planet started from a passing (or crashing) asteroid/meteor. Compare this to believing in the creation story as described in Genesis. I actually find it harder to believe the Genesis story, given what we know about modern science, rather than believing in the passing asteroid/meteor hypothesis.

I don't believe in an inerrant Bible, but I do find it more reasonable that my existence is not the random accident of asteroids and meterors crashing. Life coming from a rock takes more faith for me than from an intellignet Creator. Also if, in fact life did emerge from a rock, this would not mean an intelligence was not involved for this universe to being such that life would or could emerge from a rock.

 

[oi_antz]

You talked to a dog and he stopped eating rabbits? I'm going to have a very hard time believing that one. Sorry.

I know you don't want to believe it, that is your nature. What I want to know is whether that is because I said it or whether you think dogs don't have a conscience. There was another dog I know, who after the cats had finished eating, jumped up on the table and was licking up the remains. Obviously he's been told not to do that. I said in a very convicting tone of voice "Oh Dash, you should not be doing that should you?" and he slinked to the floor with his head down and his tail between his legs. So yes I know that dogs have a conscience. I also believe wasps do too, I guess that is probably why wasps don't sting unless provoked.

 

[oi_antz]

I've already given as detailed an answer as I can on whatever it was you asked regarding evolution and God's command to subdue the earth. I don't believe God gave such a command, therefore our evolution has nothing to do with it. I'm asking Christians how they can believe in the goodness of God when nature, which God called good, is violent.

No, you can give a more detailed answer by addressing the specific questions I ask. Why are you afraid to think of the answers to my questions?

 

[razeontherock]

My question, in the OP I wrote, is essentially asking how Christians explain the violence of nature.

You really want an answer? Are you ready?

(Romans 11:22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

<edit>

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

No, you can give a more detailed answer by addressing the specific questions I ask. Why are you afraid to think of the answers to my questions?

Probably because I really have no idea what you're actually asking. I think, in some vague way, you were trying to tell me about how the lion and the lamb will lie down together during some millennium period. What is the lion going to eat? Will it instantly mutate to eat vegetables? How did man's sin affect it so it started eating lambs in the first place (going back to my question in the OP)?

 

[oi_antz]

If you've got nothing good to say about this particular atheist kindly stay out of my threads. Several times now some "nice" Christians (you in particular) have resorted to insults and ad hominem attacks when I refuse to see your "reasoning". Kindly shut up. If there was a way of blocking your posts on these forums I would have done so several threads ago.

And I see no need to address Antz' belief in dogs that understand human languages. Antz may be fervent in his belief that this actually happened. Good for him. But as far as I'm concerned extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

Of course dogs can understand what you say to them. "Sit down, shut up, come here, move it" are just the beginning of their vocabulary. Have you never owned a dog before? There is a reason why they are called mans best friend, they love to think and they love to love, and they never backchat. Much like the way a good Christian behaves toward God.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Notice that you are blaming God for what you don't like. Who you ought to blame is the humans who disobey God. The human was given a task to perform on earth:

But what has man turned his effort toward? Wealth and power, essentially greed. So while we are all running the rat race trying to ammas material goods, certain aspects of nature are left to run wild in ways that you and I don't like.

The message from these passages is that God is indeed benevolent. The message you are giving me is that you prefer benevolence to violence. So I ask you the question, since violence is foreign to your nature:

What personality trait do you think violence arises from?

Like many atheists, I would tend to believe that any intelligent deity would create a better world than the one we currently have. I would doubly expect this from a deity who claimed to be good and to love his creation. We don't see this in the Christian deity. That's my problem. Christians tend to blame the devil, but the problem is that God was the creator, not the devil.

Where does violence come from? Well, from my current atheist perspective, humans. It's innate in us and did not come from God or the devil. The violence in nature, such as the ichneumonidae are simply the effects of evolution (as is our own tendency towards violence). From a Christian perspective, well, that's your problem and for you to answer, hence why I wrote this thread.

If you truly believe in the benevolence of God then how do you explain the violence of nature? The devil? Then the devil has creative powers that must equal God's, because the evils of nature include viruses, germs, bacteria, etc. Therefore the devil can actually create life.

My understanding of the story leads me to believe that it is our capacity for free will being tested. Adam and Eve are long gone, we can't dwell upon their mistakes for the rest of time. There is a saying "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". All the stories in the bible are meant to give us insight and wisdom.

If you refuse to listen to the story, who do you blame for the lack of insight and wisdom?

Jesus promoted a clear message summarized as the golden rule, which He taught by repentance: learning how to conquer sin. The eventual result is to be a holy nation, but we don't see this happening to everyone's full capacity, and that is why sin reigns in our world.

We do have the capacity to tame nature and promote the golden rule throughout the world, but because of the weakness of the human nature, our efforts are not spent doing God's will, it is spent on self-serving ambitions. So much of the world's capacity is wasted by mankind's greed, that if Jesus was enthroned on everyone's heart the world would be transformed within a lifetime. It's a lot to ask for, I guess that is why the revelation shows angels getting involved and the saints being resurrected to government.

I refuse to believe the Garden of Eden story because it leaves too many other questions unanswered and I'm too tired to go into all of them right now. I suppose, as a Christian, you've probably never thought about it all that much. Adam and Eve may be long gone, but according to the Apostle Paul, their effect is with us. As a Christian, you do have to worry about it. You're dealing with sin caused by the disobedience of people who supposedly lived millennia ago. As an atheist, there is nothing for me to learn from the Adam and Eve story because it simply didn't happen.

 

[oi_antz]

Thank you for giving some thought to what I have said!

Probably because I really have no idea what you're actually asking.

I asked you this:

What personality trait do you think violence arises from?

and this:

There is a saying "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". All the stories in the bible are meant to give us insight and wisdom.

If you refuse to listen to the story, who do you blame for the lack of insight and wisdom?

You ignored them both. As I mentioned, you need to open your mind to think if you want to gain the understanding you are pursuing. The purpose of asking questions is to encourage thoughtfulness. It is for your benefit really, I just feel a bit offended when you refuse to think yet complain that you don't understand and then speak to me as though my assistance is not useful. Offended, that's how it makes me feel, I'm only trying to help.

I think, in some vague way, you were trying to tell me about how the lion and the lamb will lie down together during some millennium period.

Well I'm glad it was vague, I didn't mention anything about a millennium period. You've obviously got some baggage (indoctrination) to deal with.

What is the lion going to eat? Will it instantly mutate to eat vegetables?

It says the lion will eat straw like the ox.

How did man's sin affect it so it started eating lambs in the first place (going back to my question in the OP)?

I'm not sure that it was a direct result of mankind's sin that caused it to happen, maybe it is. Can you show me the verse that gives you that idea?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Thank you for giving some thought to what I have said!

See my post above.

 

[oi_antz]

Like many atheists, I would tend to believe that any intelligent deity would create a better world than the one we currently have.

What do you think causes this attitude? A lack of faith in life after death? I see that this world is the fire in which we either purify or perish:

Malachi 3:3
He will sit like a refiner of silver, burning away the dross. He will purify the Levites, refining them like gold and silver, so that they may once again offer acceptable sacrifices to the Lord.

That life, with Jesus as King of kings, is what we Christians look forward to. With that understanding we can accept that bad things happen for the purpose of personal growth:

Romans 5:3
New Living Translation (NLT)
3 We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance.

I would doubly expect this from a deity who claimed to be good and to love his creation. We don't see this in the Christian deity. That's my problem. Christians tend to blame the devil, but the problem is that God was the creator, not the devil.

Can't blame the devil for everything though can we? It is just as much the human's responsibility to make wise decisions.

Where does violence come from? Well, from my current atheist perspective, humans. It's innate in us and did not come from God or the devil. The violence in nature, such as the ichneumonidae are simply the effects of evolution (as is our own tendency towards violence). From a Christian perspective, well, that's your problem and for you to answer, hence why I wrote this thread.

OK, but I actually asked what is the personality trait that causes violence. Not everyone is violent.

If you truly believe in the benevolence of God then how do you explain the violence of nature? The devil? Then the devil has creative powers that must equal God's, because the evils of nature include viruses, germs, bacteria, etc. Therefore the devil can actually create life.

No, I don't blame the devil for that, we are all just part of a survival mechanism food chain. It's not a perfect world by anyone's standards, possibly due to a particular fruit that was taken out of the garden? You don't think that if planet earth invited Jesus to be Lord of lords then we will have a perfect world? Have a good think about that because that is the message I have brought to you on this thread.

I refuse to believe the Garden of Eden story because it leaves too many other questions unanswered and I'm too tired to go into all of them right now. I suppose, as a Christian, you've probably never thought about it all that much. Adam and Eve may be long gone, but according to the Apostle Paul, their effect is with us. As a Christian, you do have to worry about it. You're dealing with sin caused by the disobedience of people who supposedly lived millennia ago. As an atheist, there is nothing for me to learn from the Adam and Eve story because it simply didn't happen.

Oh but there is something you need to learn from it, and that is why we are given it in the first place. Look beyond the fact that it describes how earth came to be formed, look at the metaphor: The mistake Adam and Eve made is they decided not to trust what God told them. It is the same thing you are doing by refusing to entertain the story of Adam and Eve. Boy is that ever a hook. You do learn a lot by thinking about it though, so long as you are thinking the right way about it

 

[oi_antz]

See my post above.

Thanks, cross posted you. Can you answer this question:

How did man's sin affect it so it started eating lambs in the first place (going back to my question in the OP)?

I'm not sure that it was a direct result of mankind's sin that caused it to happen, maybe it is. Can you show me the verse that gives you that idea?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Thanks, cross posted you. Can you answer this question:


I'm not sure that it was a direct result of mankind's sin that caused it to happen, maybe it is. Can you show me the verse that gives you that idea?

Not a verse I'm afraid. I used to watch a lot of Christian TV. I can't remember who said it but the general idea was that after the fall of Adam and Eve all the animals were affected (so they ate each other) and apparently the world spun on its axis too. I know of a few Christians who believe this theory but I'm not sure how popular it is.

I'm just curious how Christians account for the state of nature as we find it currently. So far no one in this thread has given me a solid enough reply. Did God cause it at the point of creation? Was it the result of sin? Did it evolve this way slowly under God's direction?

The way I see it, if God created nature as it is currently, then he can hardly be called benevolent. I think this is why some of the people replying in this thread have been upset with me. They see their God as good and I don't. I am still not convinced by the so-called goodness of this God.

 

[golgotha61]

<edit>

Reasoning involves using the laws of logic. These laws include the law of non-contradiction that says you cannot have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship. Example: "My keys are in the house, and it is not the case that my keys are in the house" is necessarily false by the law of non-contradiction. As a Christian I have an absolute standard for reasoning; I am to pattern my thoughts after God's thoughts and the laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. The law of non-contradiction is not just an opinion of how we ought to think, but rather it stems from God's self-consistent nature. God cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2:13), and so, the way God upholds the universe will be n0n-contradictory.

Laws of logic are God&#8217;s standard for thinking. Since God is an unchanging, sovereign,immaterial Being, the laws of logic are abstract, universal, invariant entities. In other words,they are not made of matter&#8212;they apply everywhere and at all times. Laws of logic are
contingent upon God&#8217;s unchanging nature. And they are necessary for logical reasoning.Thus, rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God. (Dr. Jason Lisle)

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Reasoning involves using the laws of logic. These laws include the law of non-contradiction that says you cannot have A and not-A at the same time and in the same relationship. Example: "My keys are in the house, and it is not the case that my keys are in the house" is necessarily false by the law of non-contradiction. As a Christian I have an absolute standard for reasoning; I am to pattern my thoughts after God's thoughts and the laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. The law of non-contradiction is not just an opinion of how we ought to think, but rather it stems from God's self-consistent nature. God cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2:13), and so, the way God upholds the universe will be n0n-contradictory.

Laws of logic are God&#8217;s standard for thinking. Since God is an unchanging, sovereign,immaterial Being, the laws of logic are abstract, universal, invariant entities. In other words,they are not made of matter&#8212;they apply everywhere and at all times. Laws of logic are
contingent upon God&#8217;s unchanging nature. And they are necessary for logical reasoning.Thus, rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God. (Dr. Jason Lisle)

What if God doesn't exist?

Or, from another angle; why would God give us the capacity to reason to the point that we could reason that God did not exist? Doesn't this refute the quote from 2 Timothy you gave? If God cannot deny himself then shouldn't it be impossible for someone to use their reason to conclude that God does not exist? Wouldn't this be God denying himself through human reason?

You seem to be under the impression that your own logical conclusion of the existence of God is, and should be, everyone else's logical conclusion. The fact that there are atheists who have logically concluded there is no God easily refutes this assumption. If you have reasoned that there is a God, I am happy for you. I have spent years trying to reason with the Bible and eventually concluded that there is no God. Let's take a little sidetrack and I will show you one thing that made me conclude, using my reasoning, that there is no God;

In Genesis 1:11 God created all the plants and vegetation on earth. This was the third day of creation. However, there is a problem with this. There is no sun to provide light for these plants to live. The sun isn't created until the next day. So the plants had to survive for a whole day without the sun's light. Now, I realise Christians will point to the "light" that God created on the first day of creation. But this light is unspecified. What is it? Where does it come from? It is not the light from the sun, which plants need to live (look up photosynthesis on wikipedia). The "light" on the first day is never mentioned again after the first day (as far as I know). The light was not from the person of God (or God would not have needed to have created it). It was clearly some kind of temporary light until God created the sun and moon and other stars.

From this rather bizarre story, and the creation story as a whole, I have to conclude that logically speaking, it didn't happen as described. I know, from studies in modern science, that plants need the sun in its current form to photosynthesise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis). Therefore the story in the Bible is not true. In order for it to be true the onus falls on Christians to invent theories as to what they believe might have happened.

This is just one example of how I came to reason away the existence of God. A further example would be such things as the talking snake in the Garden of Eden. Snakes don't talk. This snake was not the devil, because why would God punish a possessed snake (by making it crawl on its belly, which presumes the snake once had legs); it's just an animal. So therefore the story is explicitly suggesting that it was a literal talking snake that deceived Eve and not a spiritual being possessing the snake. Again, since talking snakes are not a regular occurrence I have to conclude that this story is therefore not true which leads me to doubt the integrity of the Bible as a whole.

Given these things I just don't see how one can conclude that reason is from God and therefore God must exist.