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What happens to Muslim children when they die?

ebia

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Grumpy Old Man said:
The entire New Testament begs to differ. It's basically about Jesus dying so people can avoid hell when they die and get to heaven instead. You've either read an entirely different New Testament from me, or you're seeing something in there that the vast majority of people who've read it have missed.
a lot of people have "missed" it because your summary is what they have been taught, but that's not the shape or focus of scripture at all.

From my reading of the Bible, I would agree with your interpretation on the Old Testament. God was seemingly more interested in the natural world and sorting it out, than in the spiritual one. However, in the New Testament, this changes. Jesus himself has no political designs and even says so to the disciples when they ask. Jesus was more concerned with our inner morality and thought life.
I could hardly agree less. Jesus declined to do politics in the expected way, but he engages in political action and teaching a the time. Which is the only reason anyone would actually get upset with him.

I agree that the Bible doesn't seem to differentiate between adult and child. God's mercy and violent wrath are extended to both equally. I suppose my question now is, how can one worship such a God?
because God's aim is putting the world and it's people to rights. Children are as much part of that as anyone else. Age of accountability is only needed as a get-out-of-jail-free card if one had over-individualized the whole thing and put in some other absolute stumbling block (usually a requirement to explicitly and verbally pray the sinners prayer or some equivalent notion).

If your child dies today, you have no guarantee that he/she will be in heaven when your own time is up.
my child is, by baptism, a member of the people of God to whom his covenant promises apply. You were asking about Islamic children.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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I believe all children are spared of doctrinal error.

Well, not to put it rudely, but this is just what you believe. Do you have any proof of your belief? We've already established that this belief, that children go to heaven when they die, lacks scriptural evidence.

The only hint regarding children in the NT is Jesus accepting them and warning any one to forbid them from coming to Him.

As for adults regarding doctrinal error, more involved.

Obviously not every one can be right, there are about 10,000 Protestant denominations world wide, this is what happens when there is no order or authority in place, then there are about a dozen Catholic variations. Even with order and authority in place, some will go their own way.

Then there are the thousands of non-Christian religions world wide as well.

We are mostly victim to our surroundings and how we are raised and what we are exposed to. If we were born in Iran, we would probably be Muslim. Even if we heard the Christian message, we probably would dismiss it as a in perfect version of Islam. Perhaps in our hearts we believed we were more faithful and truthful to God.

I don't believe when we die, God is going to say, sorry, you were in the wrong religion, bye!

I believe it is what is in our hearts that God will look at first. Religion is merely the clothing we wear now. In spirit, we will be seen as we really are.

That said there is still the issue of what if some one knew better but still went another way. I believe that will be judged as well. Along with faith, acts, and number one, what's in a person's heart.

So you see, I believe all roads lead to Rome eventually :)

Are you sure you're a Catholic? You sound a bit more like one of those Universal Unitarians or whatever they're called. The Bible (well, the New Testament anyway) is very specific that Jesus is the only way to God.

Anyway, I don't want to debate that. Instead, what does the Catholic Church teach about what happens when children, of any faith, die?
 
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ebia

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Grumpy Old Man said:
Does it matter?
yes. A Christian parent is presumably raising their child within the people of God, and therefore God's covenant promises apply to that child.


My OP question was specifically about Muslim children. A child is a child, regardless of their parent's faith. Personally, I believe most children, until they hit their teens, are simply too young to make an informed decision about God, death, sin, hell, heaven, etc, and they generally only believe what their parents and elder peers tell them. This is probably why most kids, once they hit their teens, tend to reject religious beliefs in the same way they reject their belief in Santa.
that's where you are bringing your notions to the question - you assume each individual has to make an informed decision to opt in. But that's not a biblical framework at all. The biblical framework is of a whole people - including children.
 
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drich0150

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Firstly, if I remember the story of David correctly, he wasn't comforted in the sense you describe. He wasn't comforted at all. When the child died David stopped praying and got on with life, and when someone asked him why he wasn't upset, David said something along the lines of him not being able to do anything for his son now that he was dead. The text mentions nothing about the child going to be with God (who made the child sick in the first place).
You are addressing this situation with blinders on. If you want a Christian response then you must also take into consideration Everything the bible has to say about the subject. You are addressing this topic from a singular Jewish perspective and have completely ignored the Christian verses, and yet you demand Christian accountability to an OT principle and understanding.. Straw man much?



If God is willing to make a child sick in this present life for the sins of their father, then why would we presume he have mercy on the sins of the child itself?
You are over looking alot of verses to come to this conclusion. (New and OLD) You can take one verse in the affirmative and ignore everything else to the contrary. If there is an exception like the one found in 2sam then you must reconcile the circumstances that set these events apart.

You say yourself there is no scriptural evidence for God sending children to heaven when they die. So why do Christians preach this?
Not all do

Where did this doctrine come from?
From a need to comfort grieving parents. Is that such a wicked thing you must confront it?
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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You are over looking alot of verses to come to this conclusion. (New and OLD) You can take one verse in the affirmative and ignore everything else to the contrary. If there is an exception like the one found in 2sam then you must reconcile the circumstances that set these events apart.

Can you explain this further please? What verses did I overlook? Yes, I'm aware David committed adultery and had Uriah (spelling?) killed by sending him to the front lines of battle - this was after he blatantly tried to get Uriah to sleep with Bathsheba by giving Uriah some time off, which Uriah refused. However, the Bible is absolutely specific in saying that it was God himself who struck the child with sickness after Nathan's prophecy. Read it for yourself. I don't see how I'm picking and choosing verses here. What context did I miss out on that would explain away God killing an innocent child? Doesn't the Bible itself say;

Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)


7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



You claim I'm seeing this from a Jewish perspective (whatever that means), however, I'm pretty sure that Yahweh is the same God that Jesus called "Father" in the New Testament. He just had a dramatic personality change, that's all.

You've led me on a bit of a goose chase here that I didn't want to go into but I felt compelled to answer you. My purpose in this thread still hasn't been properly addressed; do children of other faiths (my example was Muslim) go to heaven when they die? There doesn't seem to be a consensus so therefore it can only be a grey area. I'm still interested where this teaching came from, especially if it's not found in the Bible, and why many Christians believe this.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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From a need to comfort grieving parents. Is that such a wicked thing you must confront it?

Most people would rather know the truth, after they've had time to grieve, than live with a lie. When I was about 10 my pet rabbit died. I was hugely upset and my dad tried to comfort me by saying that my rabbit went to heaven. Of course, I don't believe this now, but at the time, it offered some small comfort.

To put it another way, why are Christians lying about this issue when they clearly don't know? Lying is a sin, yet Christians seem quite comfortable telling parents that their little ones will go to heaven, even though the child may have made no attempt to ask Jesus into their heart (which is also unscriptural).

This, of course, leaves another question. If the child doesn't go to heaven when they die, where do they go? Is God just in sending a child to eternal torment when that child cannot possibly understand the nature of the eternal struggle they were born into?
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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that's where you are bringing your notions to the question - you assume each individual has to make an informed decision to opt in. But that's not a biblical framework at all. The biblical framework is of a whole people - including children.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm assuming (and have always assumed) that becoming a Christian is making an informed life choice.
 
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IndieVisible

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Well, not to put it rudely, but this is just what you believe. Do you have any proof of your belief? We've already established that this belief, that children go to heaven when they die, lacks scriptural evidence.



Are you sure you're a Catholic? You sound a bit more like one of those Universal Unitarians or whatever they're called. The Bible (well, the New Testament anyway) is very specific that Jesus is the only way to God.

Anyway, I don't want to debate that. Instead, what does the Catholic Church teach about what happens when children, of any faith, die?

You have selected a very appropriate screen name it seems.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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Jesus said that people have to be like children in order to enter heaven, and not like christian children, so they would. And the bible already mentioned that God's judgement is just, so yes, they go to heaven

This is often interpreted as an adult needs childlike faith (in other words, and unquestioned acceptance of what Jesus said) in order to get to heaven. This does not mean a child would automatically go to heaven. What if that child has a childlike faith in Allah as their saviour?
 
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bling

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You are right in noticing the Bible does not address Children and the judgment of children.

First and foremost, God is just, Loving and merciful.

I do not know anyone who would feel it was “just” to condemn a child for the wrong they had unknowingly done.

A child is “safe” and not saved, since they have not sinned, but they also have not completed their earthly adult objective.

The “objective of man” is not to not sin. Sin is not the problem and all mature adults will sin. Unforgiven sin can be a huge problem, but forgiveness is easily obtained through turning from the situation you have gotten yourself into (the burden of your transgressions) and humbly seeking the help (Charity) of the Creator.


The Bible is for Christians and to bring the Jews to a belief in the Messiah, although some non Christians have gotten some benefit from it.

It would be “just” for God to allow individuals that never had the opportunity to enter heaven with just a wonderful child for parent type Love and allow those that obtained Godly type love to protect and preserve them for eternity, since there is no way for them to obtain Godly type Love in heaven.

Unfortunately, Children die because death is needed, to help other willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.
 
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elman

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This is often interpreted as an adult needs childlike faith (in other words, and unquestioned acceptance of what Jesus said) in order to get to heaven. This does not mean a child would automatically go to heaven. What if that child has a childlike faith in Allah as their saviour?
God is good. It is unnecessary to concern oneself that God might mistreat children.
 
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GA777

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I'm sorry, but that is your own unique interpretation.
And btw. not everything is written in the bible,but everything can be interpreted through it.
And as I said, he goes to heaven because he didnt live his life yet. It is death with sin which gets us away from heaven, and no sin is a sin if it was not willfully made. So for someone too young to understand anything about this subject, cannot be considered to have sinned yet, and therefore he goes to heaven
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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God is good. It is unnecessary to concern oneself that God might mistreat children.

Unnecessary? Perhaps to you it is an unnecessary concern because you have forced yourself to believe in the goodness of God. But for someone who is not a Christian, the morality of God is perhaps the biggest issue in stopping them from wanting to be a Christian at all.
 
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Grumpy Old Man

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A child is “safe” and not saved, since they have not sinned, but they also have not completed their earthly adult objective.


Doesn't the Bible teach that we are sinners from birth? Also, it is pretty evident that children do sin otherwise there would be no need for the commandment that children obey their parents.
 
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drich0150

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Can you explain this further please? What verses did I overlook?
Ezekiel 18:20
This doesn't mean we do not bear the consequences of sin only that we are not punished for the sins of another.
Not to mention the passages found in the NT (That is if we are not bent of holding Christianity to a Jewish Standard.)

Yes, I'm aware David committed adultery and had Uriah (spelling?) killed by sending him to the front lines of battle - this was after he blatantly tried to get Uriah to sleep with Bathsheba by giving Uriah some time off, which Uriah refused. However, the Bible is absolutely specific in saying that it was God himself who struck the child with sickness after Nathan's prophecy. Read it for yourself. I don't see how I'm picking and choosing verses here. What context did I miss out on that would explain away God killing an innocent child? Doesn't the Bible itself say
One the child was not innocent, He was the product of sin. as a consenquence of that sin the child's body died.

You claim I'm seeing this from a Jewish perspective (whatever that means),
It means you are taking a verse written by a OT Jew for other OT Jews and holding New covenant Christians to a standard in which that no longer applies. All the while refusing to look at the texts and doctrine that govern a NT Christian.

however, I'm pretty sure that Yahweh is the same God that Jesus called "Father" in the New Testament. He just had a dramatic personality change, that's all.
Perhaps this is why you do not understand, an press irrelevant questions.. Perhaps if you could answer the following alot of your questions will be answered.

Why did God "go through a dramatic personality change?"

You've led me on a bit of a goose chase here that I didn't want to go into but I felt compelled to answer you. My purpose in this thread still hasn't been properly addressed; do children of other faiths (my example was Muslim) go to heaven when they die?
Do you want a biblical answer or a personal one? Because you got both in my opening post. What more do you want?

There doesn't seem to be a consensus so therefore it can only be a Grey area. I'm still interested where this teaching came from, especially if it's not found in the Bible, and why many Christians believe this.
They are trying to reconcile a doctrine that does not give a "satisfactory" answer all the while trying to give comfort to grief stricken parents.
 
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drich0150

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Most people would rather know the truth, after they've had time to grieve, than live with a lie. When I was about 10 my pet rabbit died. I was hugely upset and my dad tried to comfort me by saying that my rabbit went to heaven. Of course, I don't believe this now, but at the time, it offered some small comfort.
Clearly you have never been or comforted a grief stricken parent before.

This is an analytical observation with a singular purpose in mind. as wittinesses by the following statement.

To put it another way, why are Christians lying about this issue when they clearly don't know? Lying is a sin, yet Christians seem quite comfortable telling parents that their little ones will go to heaven, even though the child may have made no attempt to ask Jesus into their heart (which is also unscriptural).
So what? Do you not understand the Christian covenant? were you a quaker or seventh day Adventist? Or even a JW of some kind? You seem to only understand a works based faith, like somehow that living a perfect life is what is required to be a Christian.. You are aware that Legalism is what Paul spent most of his time here speaking out against right? there fore a good 1/3 of the NT is set against the only brand of "Christianity" you seem able to represent. Perhaps you should spend some time redefining what it is you are working so hard against.

This, of course, leaves another question. If the child doesn't go to heaven when they die, where do they go? Is God just in sending a child to eternal torment when that child cannot possibly understand the nature of the eternal struggle they were born into?
You claim knowledge of the bible yet can not discern the nature of God and what He thinks about Children. Maybe you should spend some research time in the gospels looking for the aspects of God we currently have access to rather than the side of God that demands blood for sin. That is if you wish to continue a Christian Dialog.
 
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GA777

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Doesn't the Bible teach that we are sinners from birth? Also, it is pretty evident that children do sin otherwise there would be no need for the commandment that children obey their parents.

The bible teaches that we are born with sin, and not that children sin.

And the commandment is not for children, again. And the commandment is : "honour your father and your mother". And if you really read the OT, you'd clearly realize that honouring is meant most of the times when the parents become old, and need help. Furthermore, God said that we have to be like children to enter heaven, and not have 1 characteristic of theirs. You can say what you want, but that's seriously far from the truth. And when children sin, they dont understand that they're sinning most of the times, but think that their parents are sinning against him, and it is because of lack of knowledge. So neither lack of knowledge (when the brain hasnt matured up yet) neither unwilfully sin can be considered a sin. And children are generally known for innocence, which show their lack of sinful nature.

And even "Jesus" said that "God" is better than him. What morale are you talking about? Shall we bring back the discussing about this again? Tho. I'm pretty sure it is useless, because your opinions/beliefs will never change
 
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