Understanding Calvinism

[OzSpen]

Awesome!!!! God is more concerned with what we 'do' in, through, Jesus Christ, concerning our daily walk, than our theology.

That is what we should be 'understanding'! Loved your comment brother. God Bless. (from a free-will baptist)

This is not the teaching of Scripture. We are to pay attention to both our lives and theology. We know this from 1 Tim. 4:16,

"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers" (NIV).

Life and theology (doctrine) are united. The way we live will be based on what we believe about God. It is never Scriptural to divorce theology from what we do - how we live.

There is further teaching on this in 2 Tim. 4:1-4:

1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (NIV).

Teaching sound doctrine is core to Christian living. We know that life and theology (doctrine) are linked. First Timothy 6:2-4 states:

These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing (NIV).

Sound doctrine, instruction and theology are essential for Christian living. Paul to Titus showed that a bishop must have a union of good living and sound doctrine:

Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it (Titus 1:7-9 NIV).

Titus 2;1 states, "But as for you, teach what accords with sound [or healthy] doctrine" (ESV).

It is false to place a dichotomy between Christian living and sound theology. God is most definitely interested in teaching the truth - sound doctrine. It is married to right living. We live what we believe.

Oz

 

[rturner76]

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
(James 1:22-27 ESV)

 

[billybtennessee]

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
(James 1:22-27 ESV)

Amen brother. This is theology that is worth understanding.

 

[billybtennessee]

This is not the teaching of Scripture. We are to pay attention to both our lives and theology. We know this from 1 Tim. 4:16,

Life and theology (doctrine) are united. The way we live will be based on what we believe about God. It is never Scriptural to divorce theology from what we do - how we live.

There is further teaching on this in 2 Tim. 4:1-4:

Teaching sound doctrine is core to Christian living. We know that life and theology (doctrine) are linked. First Timothy 6:2-4 states:

Sound doctrine, instruction and theology are essential for Christian living. Paul to Titus showed that a bishop must have a union of good living and sound doctrine:

Titus 2;1 states, "But as for you, teach what accords with sound [or healthy] doctrine" (ESV).

It is false to place a dichotomy between Christian living and sound theology. God is most definitely interested in teaching the truth - sound doctrine. It is married to right living. We live what we believe.

Oz

You are right of course. My reference was to what rturner76 posted. It is very sound doctrine, and it is very scriptural actually. And of course, it is all in and through Jesus Christ, or it is vain. God Bless.

 

[cygnusx1]

Originally Posted by rturner76

more about how you lived your life than what your theology was.​

Originally Posted by OzSpen This is not the teaching of Scripture. We are to pay attention to both our lives and theology. We know this from 1 Tim. 4:16,

You are right of course. My reference was to what rturner76 posted. It is very sound doctrine, and it is very scriptural actually. And of course, it is all in and through Jesus Christ, or it is vain. God Bless.

Your right .... but so am I defence !

 

[billybtennessee]

It is not a defence, actually it is a fact. Faith is action. The Hebrews 11 kind is. One of faith is a 'doer' of the word. This is what God is most concerned with. Or would one need to quote words that Jesus Christ Himself gave to the seven churches, in Revelation?

Another likely fact is that each side of the two camps that continually post here in soteriology, would not agree that each other had doctrine that is as 'sound' as the other camp. Ya'll just keep right at it, and nobody has to worry there, regardless how many times one puts the focus back on JESUS CHRIST, and one trusting, obeying, and abiding in Him, which is what He said 'do' after all. 'Many will say to Me in that day', we live what we say, profess. Nuff said? Scriptural?

That was the point of what rturner76 said, and He is absolutely correct. He is also absolutely using 'sound doctrine' that is very scriptural when saying it. If anyone has a problem with this point, it would be theirs. Most seem to focus on meanings of words, or their alternate meaning. And even though one can give other scriptural references, using the whole of Gods word on the topic, regarding the very same subject, same word, if they do not go along with a particular doctrine then they are ignored. That, is not, 'sound doctrine'. But God Bless. I will keep commending the point that I did. It is very sound doctrine, and very scriptural. And really needs to be understood.

 

[heymikey80]

Awesome!!!! God is more concerned with what we 'do' in, through, Jesus Christ, concerning our daily walk, than our theology.

That is what we should be 'understanding'! Loved your comment brother. God Bless. (from a free-will baptist)

Do you think the Pharisees thought any differently, in principle?

 

[heymikey80]

It is not a defence, actually it is a fact. Faith is action.

Faith is not action. Faith is reliance in someone to the point where the implications of that faith issue out in action. Faith brings about action given certain conditions. Faith is not action.

It is absolutely crucial to make that distinction. When it's not made and made constantly, the mistake of the Pharisees is introduced, emphasizing works more than faith and grace -- both of which are present in First Century Judaism in minimal form, arbitrated away to a point where Paul accused Judaism of works-righteousness on practical terms.

 

[billybtennessee]

Do you think the Pharisees thought any differently, in principle?

No idea what 'principle' you mean. The pharisees did not receive or accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, I do. I have repeatedly said, in this forum, more so in defense of trusting and abiding in Jesus Christ, for salvation, than many others. Yet you have not recognized that, it seems. I would urge you to go back and read all the post I have commented in, and all the threads I have started, in regards to this. I do not know what got you somewhat agitated at what I posted, but tell what part of what rturners post were not Biblical, and we will go from there.

I merely said what scripture clearly states, 'Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only'. Jesus Christ Himself said, 'believe', 'endure', 'deny self', 'hold fast', 'he that overcometh', and more. I believe we do every one of those, in obedience to Him. I believe He is the way to salvation. I also believe 'faith is action', and Hebrews 11 will say the same. If you think this is pharisee doctrine, then you are free to believe that. I do not.

Now, mikey brother, what principle do you mean?

 

[billybtennessee]

Faith is not action. Faith is reliance in someone to the point where the implications of that faith issue out in action. Faith brings about action given certain conditions. Faith is not action.

It is absolutely crucial to make that distinction. When it's not made and made constantly, the mistake of the Pharisees is introduced, emphasizing works more than faith and grace -- both of which are present in First Century Judaism in minimal form, arbitrated away to a point where Paul accused Judaism of works-righteousness on practical terms.

"Faith without works is dead." James says just as the body without the spirit is dead, so it is with faith and works. Do you disagree with what James wrote? Was He teaching any pharisee principle?

 

[heymikey80]

No idea what 'principle' you mean. The pharisees did not receive or accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, I do.

On the contrary, '5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."' Acts 15:5

I have repeatedly said, in this forum, more so in defense of trusting and abiding in Jesus Christ, for salvation, than many others. Yet you have not recognized that, it seems.

It would seem instead that you have simply retaliated without checking into what I've let stand.

I would urge you to go back and read all the post I have commented in, and all the threads I have started, in regards to this. I do not know what got you somewhat agitated at what I posted, but tell what part of what rturners post were not Biblical, and we will go from there.

I would urge you to go back and read all the posts I have commented in.

I merely said what scripture clearly states, 'Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only'. Jesus Christ Himself said, 'believe', 'endure', 'deny self', 'hold fast', 'he that overcometh', and more. I believe we do every one of those, in obedience to Him. I believe He is the way to salvation. I also believe 'faith is action', and Hebrews 11 will say the same. If you think this is pharisee doctrine, then you are free to believe that. I do not.

I do not agree that everything Jesus commends is required for salvation, no.

Otherwise you are left to account for every time you're angry at your brother without cause, as Jesus has said. Or looked on a woman with lust. Or sworn in order to establish the veracity of your statement.

Now, mikey brother, what principle do you mean?

The principle recognizing that we are the sinners, and God is the good.

"Faith without works is dead." James says just as the body without the spirit is dead, so it is with faith and works. Do you disagree with what James wrote? Was He teaching any pharisee principle?

James clearly didn't think faith was works -- otherwise he'd say "faith without works isn't faith."

Do you disagree with what James wrote? Was he teaching any pharisee principle?

 

[billybtennessee]

On the contrary, '5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."' Acts 15:5
billyb replies,
I have never preached or taught circumcision or the keeping of the law. I preach and teach believing in Jesus Christ, trusting Him as Saviour, and following and obeying Him as Lord. No pharisee did that, without being converted to Jesus Christ, and leaving the practice of the pharisees. You simply have no grounds to accuse a believer of practicing what a pharisee does. None at all. Now, if you equate 'obedience', with 'works of OT law', then we may have a discussion. Do You?


It would seem instead that you have simply retaliated without checking into what I've let stand.

billyb replies, Not applicable at all

I would urge you to go back and read all the posts I have commented in.

billyb replies, I have read all that we have had discussion in, no need to read more, I don't believe. You have commented in many I have commented in, and replied to the threads I have started. I have always pressed the fact that salvation is in and through Jesus Christ. More so than you have, in the ones we have had discussion in. All any have to do is check them out. I say this not as an accusation, but to defend the comment in which you hinted that I have said things in the same principle of a pharisee, which is your comment above, though you have no grounds at all for doing that.

I do not agree that everything Jesus commends is required for salvation, no.

billyb replies, So, one does not need to 'obey' what Christ commanded? (not commends) Did He not also say, "Why call ye Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" And, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." You saying this that Christ said is not required? I sure won't.

Otherwise you are left to account for every time you're angry at your brother without cause, as Jesus has said. Or looked on a woman with lust. Or sworn in order to establish the veracity of your statement.

billyb replies, So, again, did Jesus Christ teach these things, for no reason to you?

The principle recognizing that we are the sinners, and God is the good.

billyb replies, We sure are. No discussion there. It is Jesus Christ who saves us. He saves us 'from' our sins. To 'walk' in newness of life. We are 'doers', and not hearers only. The old dies, the new comes to life. Brother, you have no argument here, unless you deny scriptures teaching. The true believer does all this, in obedience, with all their heart, soul, and strength.

James clearly didn't think faith was works -- otherwise he'd say "faith without works isn't faith."

billyb replies, Very weak brother. "Faith without works is dead" is what James said. The meaning is very clear.

Do you disagree with what James wrote? Was he teaching any pharisee principle?

billyb replies, No, I do not. The question was yours, addressed to you, since it was you who said faith is not action. No, it is dead without it. I don't believe James was referring to OT law. But he sure did refer to 'works'.

Brother, too much scripture will show you as wrong here, in this point you made, or argue. I can quote them all, but this has side-tracked the thread enough. I have not condemned calvinism at all, in this thread. I even wrote the points that I agreed with, back yonder somewhere. I know much about what calvinism teaches, I see a lot of the points of calvinism here, especially in soteriology. I also agree very much with rturner76 comments, the ones I commented on. I make no apologies for that. And I see that he is Methodist, too. They are christians too. Part of the body of Christ. As are calvinist. Any who believe in, trust, follow, and obey Jesus Christ are. His comment was also very scriptural. Did not mean to offend anyone, just giving an amen to truth, that needs to be understood. Sidetracked now. We will discuss again, on a more appropiate thread, I hope. God Bless brother.

 

[rturner76]

One more comment on faith and works. I don't believe works ARE your faith. Works are just the evidence of your faith. God will know if you have faith. You can show you have faith with works but works do not = faith because works can also be done with no faith. But faith+works is a real gift

 

[cygnusx1]

the thief on the cross had no works (except bad ones) he just trusted Christ and that sufficed. Good works are akin to thanksgiving they follow faith .

 

[Pinkman]

the thief on the cross had no works (except bad ones) he just trusted Christ and that sufficed. Good works are akin to thanksgiving they follow faith .

Did he chose to trust Christ or was he predestined to before the foundation of the world ?

 

[nobdysfool]

Did he chose to trust Christ or was he predestined to before the foundation of the world ?

Yes.


And by that, I mean both are true. It's not a matter of either/or.

 

[Eleiou]

ditto......... all paths have been determined within the "mind" of God.

 

[Shulamite]

Did he chose to trust Christ or was he predestined to before the foundation of the world ?

Yes, the thief was predestined by the Will of the Father and was given to the Son right there on the spot....

John 6:45..."It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to Me."

The thief may not have understood that he was in fact, 'learning from the Father' but he was. He was enabled, at that moment, to come to the Son.
Remember, no one can come unless they are drawn first by the Father. Notice the order in which this "coming" takes place in the above-scripture?
We learn of the Father FIRST, then we come.

 

[Pinkman]

Laurence Vance re John 6:45:
“…we have here the separation of the Jewish sheep from the goats and the drawing of them to the Messiah. The ones given are Jewish disciples. They are said to be his sheep. (John 10:27). John baptized that Christ should be manifest to Israel (John 1:31). Although Israel as a whole received him not (John 1:11), he was known of his sheep (John 10:14), the epitome of which can be seen in Simeon, who was ‘just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him’ (Luke 2:25). … The error of the Calvinists on John 6:44 is two-fold. First and foremost is the misapplication of a verse with a decidedly Jewish context as a doctrinal statement on salvation in this age. And secondly, in a spiritual sense, there is the fallacy of making the drawing of God irresistible and equating it with salvation.” (The Other Side of Calvinism, pp.510, 511, emphasis mine)

 

[heymikey80]

I have never preached or taught circumcision or the keeping of the law. I preach and teach believing in Jesus Christ, trusting Him as Saviour, and following and obeying Him as Lord. No pharisee did that, without being converted to Jesus Christ, and leaving the practice of the pharisees. You simply have no grounds to accuse a believer of practicing what a pharisee does. None at all. Now, if you equate 'obedience', with 'works of OT law', then we may have a discussion. Do You?

Bait & switch. You asserted that Pharisees did not believe in Jesus. Acts 15:5 definitely asserts the contrary.

It's quite clear a person can be a Christian Pharisee. It happened in the First Century.

I haven't equated "works of law" with "obedience", and quit alleging what I haven't said. Cite or retract.

I've pointed out that salvation is not of works, and indeed faith can't be works by what Paul has said, indeed what James has said, and indeed the way "pistis" is used in Greek.

So, as you've stated you have no need to read further, I take that to myself as well. I've read your postings, and I'm pointing out the difference with your position. Don't spin out alleging falsehoods about your opposition when it points out the difference. It violates the rules of this forum.

I do not agree that everything Jesus commends is required for salvation, no.

billyb replies, So, one does not need to 'obey' what Christ commanded? (not commends) Did He not also say, "Why call ye Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" And, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." You saying this that Christ said is not required? I sure won't.

It's quite clear that obeying everything Jesus commands is also not required for salvation. Otherwise we're all dead. Mt 5:48.

billyb replies, So, again, did Jesus Christ teach these things, for no reason to you?

Jesus had reasons, but they were not how you're to work to be saved.

Not everything is soteriology.

James clearly didn't think faith was works -- otherwise he'd say "faith without works isn't faith."

billyb replies, Very weak brother. "Faith without works is dead" is what James said. The meaning is very clear.

You think it's weak for James to refer to faith without works as faith? That's an awfully strong point of concept in James. Either it's faith or it's not.

Or are you saying a dead faith is no longer faith? Cite where James asserts such.

On this point James is quite consistent with Paul, who also prevents faith from being works: "5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness" Rom 4:5

It's quite clear: faith isn't work.

Do you disagree with what James wrote? Was he teaching any pharisee principle?

billyb replies, No, I do not. The question was yours, addressed to you, since it was you who said faith is not action. No, it is dead without it. I don't believe James was referring to OT law. But he sure did refer to 'works'.

Paul refers to "works" too, but he and James are not saying what you're attributing works to: as required for salvation.

Brother, too much scripture will show you as wrong here, in this point you made, or argue. I can quote them all, but this has side-tracked the thread enough. I have not condemned calvinism at all, in this thread. I even wrote the points that I agreed with, back yonder somewhere. I know much about what calvinism teaches, I see a lot of the points of calvinism here, especially in soteriology. I also agree very much with rturner76 comments, the ones I commented on. I make no apologies for that. And I see that he is Methodist, too. They are christians too. Part of the body of Christ. As are calvinist. Any who believe in, trust, follow, and obey Jesus Christ are. His comment was also very scriptural. Did not mean to offend anyone, just giving an amen to truth, that needs to be understood. Sidetracked now. We will discuss again, on a more appropiate thread, I hope. God Bless brother.

The thread is "understanding Calvinism". The thread is not sidetracked.

If you think Calvinism allows for a mix of faith and works to save a person, then you're wrong about that and indeed you've made statements that are very much in conflict with Calvinism -- indeed, Augustinism -- indeed, Paulinism. I think it's even broader than that.