joey_downunder
big sister
From now on I will try to ensure I address you more as an almost-believer than a severely back-slidden christian like I was. I do not want to give you false assurance of course.
2. You mentioned that you were able to explain some theological concepts very well (was that including a pastor?) and that helped other christians. Also possibly done by a non-christian but extremely unlikely.
3. Can you expand futher on which christian morals you have in mind when you say your attitudes and thinking didn't change? I may have a very different checklist in my mind after all.
4. Lack of improvement of knowledge of Bible - are you referring to actual intellectual knowledge or spiritual insight that many Christians testify of frequently? e.g. reading an Old Testament passage about Israelites rebelling against God and realising that they personally are rebelling in a similar way.
Look at her focus on the Bible (or from the Christian perspective God's word), her admitting that she can't do it in her own strength, and her personal need for her life to have a purpose. No mention of signs and wonders or special feelings as part of her everyday Christian walk.
I think it has swung from one extreme to the other. Many feeling people wouldn't have had their needs met by those books. Now thinking people are starved. In comparison the letters to the early churches (especially apostle Paul's) start at theology and then move to the practical and/or experience side of the Christian walk. It would be so good if modern Christian writers did the same to restore balance. Christians can't continue to walk in the Spirit if they don't understand how salvation changes our hearts and Biblical knowledge/theology alone will not change a person's heart and how we are to walk the Christian walk.
You could see things is a completely different matter IF 1. your worldview completely changes. 2. you understand the bible differently i.e. you are no longer spiritually blind (think back to that sermon you seemed to like).
It is metanoia/change of mind that God looks for in people who admit they need him. For most people feelings of repentance occur as well. You have clearly explained that you are incapable of feeling convicted for biological reasons.
Why do you think that lack of emotions makes you unable to serve God anyway? That is potentially a major strength!!!!
What keeps drawing you back to searching for God anyway? Do you still continue to assume that is merely by chance?
1. Signs of growth and understanding - again may not have been noticed by you. In theory is possible by a non-christian.Signs of growth and deeper understanding? None that I am aware of. Did I grow in knowledge of God? Unfortunately not. Did I help others grow spiritually? Possibly. Did my attitudes and thinking change and go into alignment with Christian morals over time? No. Did the Bible seem to make more sense the longer I believed? No.
2. You mentioned that you were able to explain some theological concepts very well (was that including a pastor?) and that helped other christians. Also possibly done by a non-christian but extremely unlikely.
3. Can you expand futher on which christian morals you have in mind when you say your attitudes and thinking didn't change? I may have a very different checklist in my mind after all.
4. Lack of improvement of knowledge of Bible - are you referring to actual intellectual knowledge or spiritual insight that many Christians testify of frequently? e.g. reading an Old Testament passage about Israelites rebelling against God and realising that they personally are rebelling in a similar way.
Yes that is a very reasonable statement. Before I wouldn't have given this link but I think you might be helped by examining people's testimonies of salvation more carefully. http://www.precious-testimonies.com/General/a-e/BornAgainIndex.htm Try to separate "feeling" from "thinking" testimonies and then look carefully for the patterns in the thinking personality testimonies. Examine the patterns of their lives, what triggered them to seek God, in many cases how God intervened in major crises, how they felt convicted or realised their need of a Saviour, then their personal responses. e.g. this ex-drug user's life you may think is totally irrelevant to yours at first. Notice the title "ONLY DOCTOR JESUS CAN HEAL A "DISEASED SPIRIT" http://www.precious-testimonies.com/BornAgain/L-N/MarieDailMosley.htm .However, even though there are some ways of experiencing God that could only happen for feeling people, there ought to be ways of experiencing God that are open to everyone. Thinking believers ought to experience God if it is real. I did not experience God.
Look at her focus on the Bible (or from the Christian perspective God's word), her admitting that she can't do it in her own strength, and her personal need for her life to have a purpose. No mention of signs and wonders or special feelings as part of her everyday Christian walk.
It is only because I have the time and the opportunity to read a lot of online Christian literature I noticed the difference between 19th century/ early 20th century theology and today's Christian books.I liked your idea of examining Christian bestsellers to see if they appeal to feeling people rather than thinking people. Probably they are mostly aimed at feeling people. Just as much of the Bible seems to be aimed at feeling people or is that just a function of the way that feeling people translated the Bible?
I think it has swung from one extreme to the other. Many feeling people wouldn't have had their needs met by those books. Now thinking people are starved. In comparison the letters to the early churches (especially apostle Paul's) start at theology and then move to the practical and/or experience side of the Christian walk. It would be so good if modern Christian writers did the same to restore balance. Christians can't continue to walk in the Spirit if they don't understand how salvation changes our hearts and Biblical knowledge/theology alone will not change a person's heart and how we are to walk the Christian walk.
So you didn't doubt your faith more and more as you got further away from Christian fellowship and teachings?I am not sure what being away from Christian fellowship has to do with having doubts about being a new creation. I say that I have doubts because I have no evidence of being changed. That has nothing to do with fellowship.
I don't think you would ever be absolutely sure of what God wishes for you to have - honestly I think no-one gets that in this life. Regarding your deepest needs - can you expand on what you mean? Is that more to do with your own life purpose than or direct personal experience?If I was certain that those things would be all God that wishes for me to have in this life, then yes I would accept it. Because I knew that it was Gods will for me. But I would probably not be happy about it, because then I would definitely think that I was a second class believer. It would be a faith and an acceptance in which God had not met my deepest needs.
Can you explain what you mean by a deeper spiritual relationship with God? Do you mean experiences like mystics describe or your personal prayers answered remarkably? I have skimmed through some Catholic saints' books and mystics' books and those intimate experiences don't always agree with and/or add to the Bible's teachings.Some people are happy to accept that their fellowship with God comes only through the Bible and maybe so via Christian fellowship. That is fine for them. But I have greater expectations. I would expect to have a personal relationship with God, and to have God working in me to help me to work for God.
Well feelings realistically have to be ruled out for now. When I said you mightn't see anything I meant obvious miracles.If I am not going to feel or see things any differently in this lifetime, then Christianity would have no attraction for me. I would not be interested.
You could see things is a completely different matter IF 1. your worldview completely changes. 2. you understand the bible differently i.e. you are no longer spiritually blind (think back to that sermon you seemed to like).
God would know if your heart was really doing it out of love or not (yes broken record or scratched CD playing again)Because of love, a person can act in ways that demonstrate their love. Another person may act in exactly the same way for a completely different reason. It means that I do have experience of acting as if I felt love, but no experience of love itself.
Read Paul's testimony in 2 corinthians 12:1-10/. That is nothing compared to what he would be experiencing in Heaven. I am not talking about momentary intervention from God like I have witnessed and experienced in the (now very distant) past.I would love to know if there is anyone who was surprised when they read your statement that not one person on this planet alive right now knows God the way I want to know God personally.
Of course some would disagree with me. I have experienced so much of the counterfeit experiences and read so much way-out books that I am very wary when someone starts talking about visions and dreams and personal experiences with no mention of Jesus or Biblical teachings in context. Does everything they say agree with the Bible or not? How does their life show God's influence i.e. spiritual fruit?From some of the responses that I received from Christians when I began a thread about the topic of knowing God about a year ago, I suspect that you will find some Christians who disagree strongly with your statement.
You have many entries showing 1. you have admitted you sinned 2. you realise that makes you unacceptable to God.So far, that conviction of sin has not happened. I still do not think that I have a strong need for a saviour. It means that I am still a long way from being able to serve God.
It is metanoia/change of mind that God looks for in people who admit they need him. For most people feelings of repentance occur as well. You have clearly explained that you are incapable of feeling convicted for biological reasons.
Why do you think that lack of emotions makes you unable to serve God anyway? That is potentially a major strength!!!!
In one website I read God's grace draws people to hearing the Gospel, then faith in response + repentance/metanoia, then salvation. john 6:37/ If that is true (and not merely Calvinism talking) you've got it completely back-to-front.I have to keep on saying that it is not belief in Christ that brings salvation. Salvation could only occur through grace. That is, salvation involves God responding to the persons belief in Christ. Unless and until God responds, that person is not saved.
What keeps drawing you back to searching for God anyway? Do you still continue to assume that is merely by chance?
Just as well because I sure can't do it in my own strength. It has all been in stages as well.Then to those who God chooses to respond to, the Holy Spirit could give strength to enable people to keep the commandments etc.
OK will leave that topic in the to-be-continued-later-if-necessary list then.I do not dismiss the idea of heaven and eternal life. I just have no interest in these things.
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