To joey down under,
We wrote this:
Not a note of panic. More a note of recognition that a third failure at becoming a Christian would tell me that it is never going to happen.
You may be right, but it is all taking a very long time. Of course, Gods timing would be what matters.
That sounds like a lot of work and a lot of dedication, to consider the Bible in such a detailed way. I might do that as a Christian, but I am not going to do it as an unbeliever. Especially as I want to know God in my own life rather than knowing more about God from reading the Bible. To some Christians, knowing God through the Bible is knowing God. To me, the Bible could only help me to know more about God, rather than knowing God.
You seem to be implying that people think about me in the same way that I might sometimes describe things myself. No, the people around me are quite capable of making up their own minds about me. They do not calmly accept what I tell them.
I agree. The events may not change, but the interpretation of the events may change. For now, because I can recognise several possible reasons for my particular experiences of trying to be a believer, I could interpret the events in different ways. The trouble is, I do not know which interpretation is correct.
I can assure you that faith in Christ can be unsuccessful. I ought to know.
So I am told. But I have no spiritual awareness and very limited spiritual understanding, so I could not say from experience anything about the spiritual realm. Indeed, I could not say from experience that such a thing as a spiritual realm exists.
I agree that identifying what is holding me back could help. But how could I find out what is holding me back? It would have to be something permanent in my life, to have held me back over so many years.
It was not that I was not aware of how close I had to keep to God. I knew very well that I needed to keep close to God. But I knew that I was very far from God. Not that I had once been close and had moved away, but that I had never been close to God at all. That was what I wanted to do, to get closer to God.
I was very aware that my worry about lack of experience of God was eroding my faith. But it was not that I took my eyes off God and put them on lack of experience instead. The problem was that I was never able to keep my eyes on God, because I never seemed to find God.
Some Christians are quite happy with knowing God through the Bible. That is fine for them. It is not right for me; I would need to know God. And that implies God responding to me. For me, no response from God means no relationship with God and that means no salvation. It is as simple as that.
Not just becoming a believer, but having such a disappointing experience as a believer and finally giving up my belief. It is the whole thing that was significant in my life.
I am not the only contributor to Christian Forums who has been though failure as a convert to Christianity. As far as I am aware, none of the others has been able to find God either. So I am not alone.
You say that you were where Im at about five to seven years ago. Yes, I can understand what you mean by that. But now you are very different. What caused the change? Would it work for me?
I read this, but the woman in the story is very different from me. The point of the story is that she had assurance but did not know it. I do not have assurance, and did not have assurance as a believer once I realised that God had not responded to me. This began about a year after becoming a believer. For the first year I simply trusted that God would eventually respond, and so the lack of response was not a problem.
We wrote this:
Losthope: ...because if it failed again, there would definitely never be a fourth time.
Joey: I am concerned there is a note of panic there. God doesn't do things in our own timing.
Not a note of panic. More a note of recognition that a third failure at becoming a Christian would tell me that it is never going to happen.
I firmly believe in your life people are being used by God to speak to you and He has consistently done that throughout your life.
You may be right, but it is all taking a very long time. Of course, Gods timing would be what matters.
That is how careful examination of scripture, meditation on its meanings and so on is so essential for you. For some people, perhaps even non-Christians a quick reading of scripture may be enough to get its underlying message overall. You do not have that "gift" so you need to examine it carefully and from different writers' points of view. Your mind literally needs reprogramming just like mine did.
That sounds like a lot of work and a lot of dedication, to consider the Bible in such a detailed way. I might do that as a Christian, but I am not going to do it as an unbeliever. Especially as I want to know God in my own life rather than knowing more about God from reading the Bible. To some Christians, knowing God through the Bible is knowing God. To me, the Bible could only help me to know more about God, rather than knowing God.
Yes they've seen your struggles and how you haven't progressed in any way. They have also heard how you believe you must not have been/ ever been/can't tell if you're a christian. Understandably they've got very discouraged alongside you as well.
You seem to be implying that people think about me in the same way that I might sometimes describe things myself. No, the people around me are quite capable of making up their own minds about me. They do not calmly accept what I tell them.
Don't worry about your past and current experiences. Your experiences will change as your thinking changes.
I agree. The events may not change, but the interpretation of the events may change. For now, because I can recognise several possible reasons for my particular experiences of trying to be a believer, I could interpret the events in different ways. The trouble is, I do not know which interpretation is correct.
Faith in Christ is successful faith. Faith in anything else is unsuccessful faith. Don't measure your personal faith by answered prayer, emotions and so on.
I can assure you that faith in Christ can be unsuccessful. I ought to know.
Spiritual is not the same as material/physical realm.
So I am told. But I have no spiritual awareness and very limited spiritual understanding, so I could not say from experience anything about the spiritual realm. Indeed, I could not say from experience that such a thing as a spiritual realm exists.
Think of the rich young ruler going to Jesus. luke 18:18-30/ It sounds like he had some faith otherwise he wouldn't have approached Jesus. You're seeking Jesus but you have to identify what is holding you back. It was love of money in that rich ruler's case. It was "it's my life and I'll do what I want to" attitude in my case. (Notice past tense.)
I agree that identifying what is holding me back could help. But how could I find out what is holding me back? It would have to be something permanent in my life, to have held me back over so many years.
It could also be argued that at the time you were not aware of how close you had to keep to God to maintain your faith. Some christians appear to keep their faith easily, you and I do not.
It was not that I was not aware of how close I had to keep to God. I knew very well that I needed to keep close to God. But I knew that I was very far from God. Not that I had once been close and had moved away, but that I had never been close to God at all. That was what I wanted to do, to get closer to God.
You were not aware of how much your worry about lack of experience itself was silently eroding your faith. As you did not feel worry, you didn't realise you were thinking worry. You took your eyes off God and put them onto your lack of experience/s instead. Anyone's faith will be damaged severely if they continue doing that, no matter how much they may know about the Bible or christian teachings.
I was very aware that my worry about lack of experience of God was eroding my faith. But it was not that I took my eyes off God and put them on lack of experience instead. The problem was that I was never able to keep my eyes on God, because I never seemed to find God.
Some Christians are quite happy with knowing God through the Bible. That is fine for them. It is not right for me; I would need to know God. And that implies God responding to me. For me, no response from God means no relationship with God and that means no salvation. It is as simple as that.
Isn't that a good sign that the most significant thing was your becoming a believer?!!!!!!
Not just becoming a believer, but having such a disappointing experience as a believer and finally giving up my belief. It is the whole thing that was significant in my life.
Perhaps that's right - you're doing it as you're typing to me. I met you online for a purpose. I have never met another person who has gone through almost exactly the same mental struggles with faith as I have while typing to you. At times my mouth has dropped. I was where you're at pretty well 5-7 years ago. Of course my very strong feeling side makes me interpret some things differently and God has kindly let me have the thinking "discernment" ability after I returned to Him, but of course He also knew what part I was going to play beforehand.
I am not the only contributor to Christian Forums who has been though failure as a convert to Christianity. As far as I am aware, none of the others has been able to find God either. So I am not alone.
You say that you were where Im at about five to seven years ago. Yes, I can understand what you mean by that. But now you are very different. What caused the change? Would it work for me?
A while back somewhere on the forum someone put this quote from Spurgeon that might be of interest to you. Spurgeon's pastoral wisdom in dealing with a woman lacking assurance "Pyromaniacs" is a very good christian blog overall. I've got it on my favourites list.
I read this, but the woman in the story is very different from me. The point of the story is that she had assurance but did not know it. I do not have assurance, and did not have assurance as a believer once I realised that God had not responded to me. This began about a year after becoming a believer. For the first year I simply trusted that God would eventually respond, and so the lack of response was not a problem.
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