Where is the sacrifice?

[GrayAngel]

A sacrificial victim, yes. You do know how sacrifices work, right? There are often victims involved.

That is kind of the point.

But hopefully, they're not human victims except in Jesus' case. In the Old Testament, there were two "victims," but they were always animals. One would be killed in the town, signifying the death of their sin. Then a second would be led far away, then thrown off a cliff, representing their sin being taken away where they will never be found.

It's quite an interesting representation of what Christ would do for us, once and for all.

 

[Ken-1122]

Time for you to ask a better question: what is "redemption?"

Maybe you can start another thread for that one; I'm still working on this question for now.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

You're getting closer now, but if you want any accurate understanding, the first step is to recognize that God's purposes are not best communicated via words. Look at the bigger pictures here, see what is going on! You are pondering something mind-boggling, that we will never exhaust the meaning of in this lifetime. Also, if you google "Christus Victor" and do some reading it may help you with this ...

Right now I'm just refering to how God's purposes are communicated via words. Maybe you can start another thread to discuss the big picture huh?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

The Gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Jesus was buried? I thought he was put in a tomb! Where in the Bible does it say he was buried? I must have missed that one.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Well if we assume that Jesus rose from the dead we also must assume that all those who die are not lost, but live on in spiritual form. If this is true then does a solider sacrifice his life by jumping on a grenade if he is just going to go to heaven?

Of course he has sacrificed something. Even if he lived on in heaven he has lost his earthly life and all the hopes and wishes he had for his life. It would be the same for Jesus. Jesus didn't resurrect into an earthly body to live on earth again. He was around for a bit, but then had to go. Also add to this the method of His death.

Good analogy about the soldier; but with the soldier, he started out with a physical life, and when he died it was a sacrifice. Jesus always had a spiritual body and was only given a physical one to come to earth for the purpose of what led to his death; it was all a part of the plan. then he returned to what he was all along; which was a million times better than what he had with his physical body.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Sacrifice is not about the item being sacrifice. it is about the atonement the sacrifice represents. God is the one who determines what happens to what is being sacrificed. Look at the story of Abraham and Isac. Isac did not have to be taken in order for Abraham's sacrifice to be counted to his faith.

The issue here is your understanding of what sacrifice is. This word has been far removed from it's original purpose (atonement) and now we only look at the personal cost. Sacrifice does involve personal cost but is not limited by cost to validate a sacrifice.

Abraham did not sacrifice his son. He was about to, but he didn't have to go through with it.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

If one wanted to be uptight semantically, possibly. The word "sacrifice" itself however doesn't etymologically refer to "giving something up forever" but instead refers to a sacred function of priests. The Hebrew qorban (Aramaic qurbana) means something such as "offering" or "gift", though oftentimes rendered as "sacrifice" in English.

Jesus, as sacrifice is His being God's self-offering and gift to us and Him becoming victim.

The word "sacrifice" is applicable and there is no reason not to use it.

-CryptoLutheran

Actually in the modern english language (the language I hear the claim that Jesus was a sacrafice for sins) to sacrifice means to give it up and not get it back. For giving something up for a while then getting it back, we have a different word; "borrow" or to "Loan"

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

A sacrificial victim, yes. You do know how sacrifices work, right? There are often victims involved.

That is kind of the point.

No; because not all victims are involved in a sacrifice; such as in this case.

K

 

[drich0150]

Abraham did not sacrifice his son. He was about to, but he didn't have to go through with it.

K

Exactly! In his heart he had made the sacrifice, and it was counted to his faith, and yet nothing was taken. Again sacrifice is not about the sacrifice, or personal cost but giving to God.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Actually in the modern english language (the language I hear the claim that Jesus was a sacrafice for sins) to sacrifice means to give it up and not get it back. For giving something up for a while then getting it back, we have a different word; "borrow" or to "Loan"

Ken

It's a meaning in English, not the meaning.

Oxford Dictionary entry on "sacrifice" here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[razeontherock]

Good analogy about the soldier; but with the soldier, he started out with a physical life, and when he died it was a sacrifice. Jesus always had a spiritual body and was only given a physical one to come to earth for the purpose of what led to his death; it was all a part of the plan. then he returned to what he was all along; which was a million times better than what he had with his physical body.

Ken

Good point! So you need to recognize it was His Life that was the true sacrifice, and that His purpose extends far beyond merely His death.

Also, in all of this He is our example.

 

[razeontherock]

Abraham did not sacrifice his son. He was about to, but he didn't have to go through with it.

K

There is more to this than has been said so far. "In a figure, Abraham received Isaac back from the dead." Sort of like how the modern usage of the word sacrifice is not the concept conveyed in the original language. That meaning just might be all you need to really answer your question.(?)

 

[solarwave]

Good analogy about the soldier; but with the soldier, he started out with a physical life, and when he died it was a sacrifice. Jesus always had a spiritual body and was only given a physical one to come to earth for the purpose of what led to his death; it was all a part of the plan. then he returned to what he was all along; which was a million times better than what he had with his physical body.

Ken

I disagree. I have a much more human understanding of Jesus. He was human and had the body of a physical human and I don't think Jesus existed in heaven in a spiritual body beforehand. He existed as God the Father 'before', but I think God the Son only came into being at the incarnation. So Jesus' death was just the same as any human death in most ways.

 

[Ken-1122]

Exactly! In his heart he had made the sacrifice, and it was counted to his faith, and yet nothing was taken. Again sacrifice is not about the sacrifice, or personal cost but giving to God.

Abraham was not known as a man of great sacrafice; he sacraficed nothing. He was known as a man of great faith because he had great faith

K

 

[Ken-1122]

It's a meaning in English, not the meaning.

Oxford Dictionary entry on "sacrifice" here.

-CryptoLutheran

I fail to see where the definition you provided contridicts what I said\

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Good point! So you need to recognize it was His Life that was the true sacrifice, and that His purpose extends far beyond merely His death.

Also, in all of this He is our example.

How was his life a sacrafice?


K

 

[Ken-1122]

There is more to this than has been said so far. "In a figure, Abraham received Isaac back from the dead." Sort of like how the modern usage of the word sacrifice is not the concept conveyed in the original language. That meaning just might be all you need to really answer your question.(?)

So Isaac came back from the dead? You lost me on that one bro

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I disagree. I have a much more human understanding of Jesus. He was human and had the body of a physical human and I don't think Jesus existed in heaven in a spiritual body beforehand. He existed as God the Father 'before', but I think God the Son only came into being at the incarnation. So Jesus' death was just the same as any human death in most ways.

So Jesus was born/created just before he came to earth? Is this just a personal opinion or is there scripture in the bible that indicates this

K

 

[Incariol]

So Jesus was born/created just before he came to earth?

No.

Is this just a personal opinion or is there scripture in the bible that indicates this

K

Unorthodox personal opinion.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I fail to see where the definition you provided contridicts what I said\

K

My point is that even in English "sacrifice" does not always or even necessarily primarily mean to lose something forever. That's a definition, but not the only definition.

-CryptoLutheran