Jesus vs Paul, law abolishment. A simple answer, from a frog.

[Jerushabelle]

Paul didn't die for my sins.

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Barnes on Eph 2:15:

The idea is, that the ceremonial law of the Jews, on which they so much prided themselves, was the cause of the hostility existing between them. That made them different people, and laid the foundation for the alienation which existed between them. They had different laws; different institutions; a different religion. The Jews looked upon themselves as the favorites of heaven, and as in possession of the knowledge of the only way of salvation; the Gentiles regarded their laws with contempt, and looked upon the unique institutions with scorn. When Christ came and abolished by his death their special ceremonial laws, of course the cause of this alienation ceased.

This does not refer to the “moral” law, which was not the cause of the alienation, and which was not abolished by the death of Christ, but to the laws commanding sacrifices, festivals, fasts, etc., which constituted the uniqueness of the Jewish system. These were the occasion of the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles, and these were abolished by the great sacrifice which the Redeemer made; and of course when that was made, the purpose for which these laws were instituted was accomplished, and they ceased to be of value and to be binding.

Clarke on Col 2:14:

By the hand-writing of ordinances the apostle most evidently means the ceremonial law: this was against them, for they were bound to fulfill it; and it was contrary to them, as condemning them for their neglect and transgression of it. This law God himself has blotted out.

To say that Jesus is the "telos" of the law means he is the purpose of the law, the thing to which it points, its point, its final goal, its fruit.

Baker on Rom 10:4:

Does one wish to understand the goal, the meaning and substance, of the Old Testament law? Then study Christ. Is not the very purpose of the law the establishment of love? See Deu_6:5; Lev_19:18 (in that order); cf. Mat_22:37-39. Is not Christ the very embodiment of that love, both in his life and in his death? And is it not true that because of this love which caused him to suffer and die in his people's stead, there now is right standing with God for everyone who reposes his trust in the Savior? Is not this the very theme of Romans?

Nevertheless, I am agreeing with you and with Paul more than you think.

CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

CCC 2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

...and fulfill does not mean replace any more than the words "Jesus vs Paul" indicates any form of reality that Jesus was against Paul. The law is to be upheld and God is to be obeyed.

 

[David64]

...and fulfill does not mean replace any more than the words "Jesus vs Paul" indicates any form of reality that Jesus was against Paul. The law is to be upheld and God is to be obeyed.

People obey whomever they belong to.
If one does not obey God's commandments they belong to the god of this world.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

[Jerushabelle]

People obey whomever they belong to.
If one does not obey God's commandments they belong to the god of this world.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.

When it comes to the behavior of Brothers and Sisters, I prefer to think in terms of lawful vs lawless as opposed to belonging or not belonging for the simple reason that only God knows the hearts and minds of men. It is a simple matter that one is either considerate of and obedient to God's law or not so, in that, we agree as one's fruits serve as evidence of such.

 

[David64]

When it comes to the behavior of Brothers and Sisters, I prefer to think in terms of lawful vs lawless as opposed to belonging or not belonging for the simple reason that only God knows the hearts and minds of men. It is a simple matter that one is either considerate of and obedient to God's law or not so, in that, we agree as one's fruits serve as evidence of such.

Ro. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[Jerushabelle]

Ro. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Amen. Paul's words, however, in no way imply knowledge of that which is in a person's heart and mind or to whom a person belongs. We can reach a conclusion and surmise from one's behavior that their lawlessness and disobedience (by their fruits we shall know them) is evidence of such but only God knows these things for certain. I was merely commenting to this. We're cool.

 

[Frogster]

Ro. 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

yes, and the answer there was to walk in the new man, raised up, not the old dead creation, that was sin, law and flesh.....
DIED TO THE LAW...DIED TO THE LAW...7;4.....

 

[Frogster]

Amen. Paul's words, however, in no way imply knowledge of that which is in a person's heart and mind or to whom a person belongs. We can reach a conclusion and surmise from one's behavior that their lawlessness and disobedience (by their fruits we shall know them) is evidence of such but only God knows these things for certain. I was merely commenting to this. We're cool.

We have not come to the old cov!


18 You have not come to something* that can be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest,

It is sin to go back to the old cov..


26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

 

[Jerushabelle]

End Of The Law For Righteousness, For Righteousness, For Righteousness

 

[40creek]

Nothing would be taken from the law until everything comes to pass. When Jesus died he fullfilled the law and thus everything came to pass (refering to himself). He himself said "it is finished".
Also as you kinow, Jesus was the one who made the covenant in the first place. He was the WORD and nothing was done that was not done through the word. When Jesus (the Word) died the covenant ended. Paul refers to this in an analogy about a marriage contract. We(man) then could make a new contract with the risen-reborn Christ. The old contract is not binding today however, the law of love would pretty much include 9 out of 10 comandments. ie. if you love your neighbor you would not rob him, lie to him, take his wife, kill him, or blaspheme him etc...

 

[Frogster]

End Of The Law For Righteousness, For Righteousness, For Righteousness


For living, for living, for living... Also read qal 3:11, and rom 1;17.

The writer of Hebrews warned about living by faith, not returning to the old cov..u tell me?


10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him."

39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That isn't the essential nature of the law, that is the outward appearance of the law. The essential nature of the law is the same as the essential nature of God, which was revealed in one place and time only - on the cross. On the cross all the curses and blessings evaporate the same moment they arise because only there they are revealed to be what they truly are - of the nature of forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a no-morality which dissolves all moralities when they arise because the true essential nature of all moralities - the thing toward which they all point, the thing which is their final end, the thing towards which they arise and into which they find their fulfillment, the thing which they signify, the thing which they reveal, is forgiveness.

No, it goes pretty deep into it's supernatural nature too . law feeds sin . sin feeds death . death gives the devil power in our lives .

but the law is good . if used lawfully . so it's good . but there is another covenant now because this one was flawed . in that it did not suit the audience .

 

[David64]

No, it goes pretty deep into it's supernatural nature too . law feeds sin . sin feeds death . death gives the devil power in our lives .

but the law is good . if used lawfully . so it's good . but there is another covenant now because this one was flawed . in that it did not suit the audience .

Where was the flaw found in the OC?

 

[from scratch]

Where was the flaw found in the OC?

What does it matter? Since there was this flaw God fixed it with a new covenant. Yeppers we can have some fun with this.

 

[from scratch]

People obey whomever they belong to.
If one does not obey God's commandments they belong to the god of this world.
It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Great now identify God's commandments. Remember drive by that they can't be the 10 Cs because Jesus issued them, right?

 

[Frogster]

Where was the flaw found in the OC?

Lets learn to go outside. Lets look past laws of the temporal dimension, foods and natual alters. Try to understand why the temple, and the law were demolished. Lets not reject the new cov, for the earthly.




Hebrews 13:13Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. 14For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15

 

[fhansen]

The abolishment question is easily answered. The Jesus vs Paul argument.

Jesus: Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The law will always stand for the unsaved. Paul still used it in Romans to condemn all. Not for the justified, but for the unsaved, 1 Tim 1, same list of creatures found in Rom 1.

So, the question is where, and for whom is it abolished?

Paul: Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,


Where is it ended, Rom 10:4?


Simple, the cross, for the Christians, where they died to law, to be raised up out of sin, law and flesh. Law ended on the cross, in his body, for the Christian, not for the unsaved, where it will always stand, the way Paul used it in Romans, to kill.


Look where it was abolished. His body, the cross.


Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:16 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.


"Brothers", he was talking to saved people, not unsaved. The Christians died to law, the body...

Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


More..died to law, the cross, that would be the same as the body.


Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


More, the cross...

Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

There we go, abolished for the Christian, no longer under law, but under grace, where sin, law, and flesh, have no dominion, Rom 5:21. Sin does however, have dominion under law, Rom 6:14, because the law is in accordance with the flesh. Sin lived in the Adamic creation, which was brought to full fruition, under law, aroused by law, Rom 7:5, 7:13, but then it was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6. Then we are raised up like Christ, in a new creation, as Christ is. Christ also died to law, that which he was born under, Gal 4:4.

Tadaaaaaa

Yeah, great, you succeeded in making sin no longer sinful-just what the world needs.

 

[Frogster]

Yeah, great, you succeeded in making sin no longer sinful-just what the world needs.

I just got done saying the world is under sin and law, in the op.

 

[David64]

Yeah, great, you succeeded in making sin no longer sinful-just what the world needs.

LOL.. Yep.
At least that's what he thinks he has done.

 

[David64]

What does it matter? Since there was this flaw God fixed it with a new covenant. Yeppers we can have some fun with this.

.
Oh it matters a lot but since you don't know how you don't care.
God fixed it alright but there again you don't know what He did to fix the flaw, so you make up what you think He did.
It's better than fun it's a most wonderful thing to understand

 

[Frogster]

.
Oh it matters a lot but since you don't know how you don't care.
God fixed it alright but there again you don't know what He did to fix the flaw, so you make up what you think He did.
It's better than fun it's a most wonderful thing to understand

until...until....gal 3;19, he fixed it until.....