Where is the sacrifice?

[Ken-1122]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

Ken

 

[GrayAngel]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

You don't think a merciless--and nearly fatal--beating, followed by hours spent hanging with wrists and feet nailed to wood until death comes qualifies as sacrifice?

 

[Ken-1122]

You don't think a merciless--and nearly fatal--beating, followed by hours spent hanging with wrists and feet nailed to wood until death comes qualifies as sacrifice?

I can understand "beating" or even "tourture" but because he was restored whole when it was all over, how can it be said he sacrificed his life?

K

 

[aiki]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

Except for the last, these are instances where things which are not divine are sacrificed. Christ was God and a big part of establishing that this was so involved resurrecting from the dead. His sacrifice was real and complete: He suffered terrible humiliation and finally death on a cross, bearing the sins of all humanity for all time as he did so. And death is usually the end of such a sacrifice. However, the virgin thrown into the volcano is not God in the flesh, nor is a goat or a prized cow. Jesus was, and proved it by doing what no man had ever done: rising from the dead.

In any case, I don't see how Christ's resurrection negates his sacrifice. At least as far as God is concerned, Christ did all that was required to satisfy the demands of His holy justice. The sinless, perfect Christ shed his blood and died an atoning death for all mankind satisfying fully God's justice. Things might be different for pagan religions that require virgins to be thrown into volcanoes, but so what? Why should the God of the Bible operate according to the rituals and rules of pagan religions?

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

Except for the last, these are instances where things which are not divine are sacrificed. Christ was God and a big part of establishing that this was so involved resurrecting from the dead. His sacrifice was real and complete: He suffered terrible humiliation and finally death on a cross, bearing the sins of all humanity for all time as he did so. And death is usually the end of such a sacrifice. However, the virgin thrown into the volcano is not God in the flesh, nor is a goat or a prized cow. Jesus was, and proved it by doing what no man had ever done: rising from the dead.

In any case, I don't see how Christ's resurrection negates his sacrifice. At least as far as God is concerned, Christ did all that was required to satisfy the demands of His holy justice. The sinless, perfect Christ shed his blood and died an atoning death for all mankind satisfying fully God's justice. Things might be different for pagan religions that require virgins to be thrown into volcanoes, but so what? Why should the God of the Bible operate according to the rituals and rules of pagan religions?

Selah.

In a sacrifice, you don't get it back.

K

 

[CryptoLutheran]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

Ken

The Greek word is "thusia" (θυσί&#945, meaning "victim" from a root meaning "to kill" or "to slaughter".

The primary idea of Jesus as sacrifice is that He offered Himself as a victim; and that God, in Jesus, has become victim on the Cross.

This becomes the quintessential paradox of the Atonement, as St. Augustine puts it, Christ is "Victor quia victima" ("Victor, because the victim"). It is in Christ's victimization on the cross that He puts to death the violent powers of this world, descending into the fullness of death, toppling down hell's ancient doors and rising from the dead.

We also speak of sacrifice as offering because in Jesus God has--and does--offer Himself to us. Jesus is God's Self-offering for us and to us.

We don't mean that God lost something, but that God has, in Christ, willingly become a victim, in fact the Victim. And precisely and paradoxically because being that victim He is victor and in Him is our own victory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Incariol]

In a sacrifice, you don't get it back.

K

God was the sacrifice. He got Himself back. Your objection makes no sense.

 

[Incariol]

Viewing Christ simply as a "sacrifice" is overly simplistic in any event. There are other aspects to the Crucifixion.

 

[Ken-1122]

The Greek word is "thusia" (θυσί&#945, meaning "victim" from a root meaning "to kill" or "to slaughter".

The primary idea of Jesus as sacrifice is that He offered Himself as a victim; and that God, in Jesus, has become victim on the Cross.

This becomes the quintessential paradox of the Atonement, as St. Augustine puts it, Christ is "Victor quia victima" ("Victor, because the victim"). It is in Christ's victimization on the cross that He puts to death the violent powers of this world, descending into the fullness of death, toppling down hell's ancient doors and rising from the dead.

We also speak of sacrifice as offering because in Jesus God has--and does--offer Himself to us. Jesus is God's Self-offering for us and to us.

We don't mean that God lost something, but that God has, in Christ, willingly become a victim, in fact the Victim. And precisely and paradoxically because being that victim He is victor and in Him is our own victory.

-CryptoLutheran

So it would be more accurate to say that he was a victim for our sins, not a sacrafice for our sins; right?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

God was the sacrifice. He got Himself back. Your objection makes no sense.

If he got himself back, it wasn't a sacrafice; he was a victim

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Viewing Christ simply as a "sacrifice" is overly simplistic in any event. There are other aspects to the Crucifixion.

But I'm not talking about all that other stuff, just the sacrifice part.

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

Ken

Time for you to ask a better question: what is "redemption?"

 

[razeontherock]

So it would be more accurate to say that he was a victim for our sins, not a sacrafice for our sins; right?

K

You're getting closer now, but if you want any accurate understanding, the first step is to recognize that God's purposes are not best communicated via words. Look at the bigger pictures here, see what is going on! You are pondering something mind-boggling, that we will never exhaust the meaning of in this lifetime. Also, if you google "Christus Victor" and do some reading it may help you with this ...

 

[razeontherock]

If he got himself back, it wasn't a sacrafice; he was a victim

Ken

The Gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

 

[Faulty]

He's the sacrifice in the sense of which sacrifice was given to us by God. Animal sacrifice was given as a covering for sins. God demonstrated to us that sin is so evil in His sight, thet it actually took the shedding of the blood of the innocent (the animal) to cover those sins. "For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb 9:22). This is something reprehensible to our minds, that an innocent should need to suffer on our behalf, but He is a holy God and sinless perfection is what He requires.

Animals were innocent. They never rebelled against God. But all animals could do was to cover sin, they could not take it away, because they were not men. This is a concept taught in the scripture known as the 'kinsman redeemer'. A redeemer of man, had to be a man, but all mankind was sinful before God, there is no innocent blood to be found among us. So, man is left in a state of sinfulness and separated from God, and there is no forgiveness possible, because there is no innocent sacrifice we could offer on our behalf.

Man had separated himself from God and had no way to be reconciled to God and the entire race was doomed, except... what is impossible for man is not impossible for God.

Romans 8:3 tells us that Jesus, a member of the Godhead, took on the likeness of sinful flesh, but knew no sin. As a man, He lived a sinless life, and then willingly offered up His innocent blood as a sacrifice on our behalf. "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (1 Cor 5:21)

Now, what man could not do, God did for us, and we have been reconciled to God for all those who put their faith in Him as the only way to have our sins forgiven and reconciled back to God.

There is no other way to God, for there was no other sacrifice that could have been made on our behalf. We cannot now or ever 'good work' our way into God's favor because without the shedding of innocent blood, there is no forgiveness to be found. Period.

We must believe on Him as our sole sacrifice, our substitute, doing for us what we could not do, and then giving it freely to all who come to Him.

There is your sacrifice... and mine.

 

[solarwave]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?[/SIZE][/FONT]

Well if we assume that Jesus rose from the dead we also must assume that all those who die are not lost, but live on in spiritual form. If this is true then does a solider sacrifice his life by jumping on a grenade if he is just going to go to heaven?

Of course he has sacrificed something. Even if he lived on in heaven he has lost his earthly life and all the hopes and wishes he had for his life. It would be the same for Jesus. Jesus didn't resurrect into an earthly body to live on earth again. He was around for a bit, but then had to go. Also add to this the method of His death.

 

[drich0150]

When you sacrifice something, you don’t get it back! When the natives would send the virgin down the volcano to appease the volcano Gods, they wouldn’t get the virgin back. When theists would sacrifice a goat, or prized cow, or whatever to appease their God, they would not get those animals back; but when God sent Jesus to earth to become a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, after being dead for 3 days, he returned to heaven as whole as when he left! So where is the sacrifice?

Ken

Sacrifice is not about the item being sacrifice. it is about the atonement the sacrifice represents. God is the one who determines what happens to what is being sacrificed. Look at the story of Abraham and Isac. Isac did not have to be taken in order for Abraham's sacrifice to be counted to his faith.

The issue here is your understanding of what sacrifice is. This word has been far removed from it's original purpose (atonement) and now we only look at the personal cost. Sacrifice does involve personal cost but is not limited by cost to validate a sacrifice.

 

[aiki]

In a sacrifice, you don't get it back.

As I explained, this isn't always so.

Selah.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

So it would be more accurate to say that he was a victim for our sins, not a sacrafice for our sins; right?

K

If one wanted to be uptight semantically, possibly. The word "sacrifice" itself however doesn't etymologically refer to "giving something up forever" but instead refers to a sacred function of priests. The Hebrew qorban (Aramaic qurbana) means something such as "offering" or "gift", though oftentimes rendered as "sacrifice" in English.

Jesus, as sacrifice is His being God's self-offering and gift to us and Him becoming victim.

The word "sacrifice" is applicable and there is no reason not to use it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Incariol]

If he got himself back, it wasn't a sacrafice; he was a victim

Ken

A sacrificial victim, yes. You do know how sacrifices work, right? There are often victims involved.

That is kind of the point.