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How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

Cieza

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Then god was lying when he told Pete what he would choose, since this god knows what Pete actually chooses.
How does God get his foreknowledge of what choice Pete will make?

And some people who hallucinate have first hand experiences that tell them their hallucinations are correct...
Are you saying when I choose between A & B, I don't really have a free choice between the two and that it has already been determined prior to my choice which one I will choose?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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How does God get his foreknowledge of what choice Pete will make?

Why would it matter? A typical Christian response has their god as a kind of time traveller unbound by the way we experience time. So there's no such thing as an event that hasn't happened yet. Everything has already happened.

you saying when I choose between A & B, I don't really have a free choice between the two and that it has already been determined prior to my choice which one I will choose?
I believe it isn't free in the sense that you think it is, but it's not necessarily determined.
 
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elopez

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When I say unimpeded free will choice, I am describing what I experience first hand when I make a choice. If you call it libertarian free will, I'm OK with that.

Why do you recognize "libertarian free will" to be false? When you make a choice, do you not have the freedom to choose either A or B?
Well, what you experience first hand is purely subjective, so by saying that it does nothing to actually support the notion of a libertarian free will. And that's the definition of free will you are describing. It's not simply what I prefer to call your position, it's the name given by the prior philosophers who debated the subject.

Because obviously I regard infallible foreknowledge as true and as I've said libertarian free will is not compatible with such. The second reason is because I believe one can be held responsible for their decision even though they could not have done otherwise, which would mean that Pete, regardless of his inability to choose B by virtue of foreknowledge, would be held accountable for choosing A. That means the ability to choose other than how we would have originally chosen is not a concept related to free will, and thus, as libertarian free will advocates that principle (referred to as PAP) it is false.

God won't inform Pete of his choice because he would jeopardize his omnipotence by doing so, as Pete could then potentially choose something in conflict with what God knows Pete is going to choose. But this isn't about what God actually does, but about what God is capable of doing. Since the Judeo-Christian God can supposedly do anything, then he could tell Pete what his choice will be prior to Pete making that choice. Therefore, it raises the question which you keep dodging - what would happen if God told Pete what his choice will be and then Pete chooses something different.
You have also yet to show that if God chose to inform Pete of his decision that Pete can choose other than what God told him. Also, I have not dodged this question but have went over with you. Remember, I said something like I am not sure if Pete could choose otherwise, but perhaps God informing Pete is that much more of a deterministic factor that ensures Pete will choose A. Perhaps what God has actually foreseen is informing Pete of his choice and him opting otherwise and keeping that from Pete.

I have first hand experience of what you're calling libertarian free will. That is how I know it is correct.
Exactly, subjectivity does nothing to show others of what you have experienced. I have first hand of experiencing the taste of superman ice cream, but I cannot as a means of my tasting experience can show it to be the correct and best flavor. Do you understand how subjectivity works?
 
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Cieza

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How does God get his foreknowledge of what choice Pete will make?
Why would it matter?
This is precisely the type of answer which prompts my thread "Why are Christians so evasive?"

A typical Christian response has their god as a kind of time traveller unbound by the way we experience time. So there's no such thing as an event that hasn't happened yet. Everything has already happened.
If from God's perspective, everything has already happened, then does God have the freedom to choose between A or B?

I believe it isn't free in the sense that you think it is, but it's not necessarily determined.
What do you personally experience when you make a choice between A & B? Let's say you end up choosing B. Prior to you making the choice of B, could you still have chosen A?
 
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Received

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Cieza said:
This is precisely the type of answer which prompts my thread "Why are Christians so evasive?"

Cieza, recognizing the difference between how something works and whether it works in a certain way isn't a difference between evasion and engagement. "How" is a red herring with regard to "whether".
 
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Cieza

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Yes. I understand how you are defining free will. I am saying you keep repeating that definition without any support for the definition. You say, "this type of free will," well yes, infallible foreknowledge is not compatible with a libertarian view of free will. That is why among another reason I believe libertarian free will to be false. As I've said I believe in a compatible type of free will which suggests foreknowledge and free will can co - exist.
When you make a choice of A instead of B, could you have still chosen B prior to the point in time you chose A? If so, then you had an unimpeded free will choice to choose A or B. If not, then why could you have not chosen B if the choice was available to you?

I've explained why it is irrelevant. Maybe I need to go into further detail. God could, as in, poses the ability to inform Pete of his future choice A, but God will not inform Pete of said desicion. Thus omnipotence is only relevant when it comes to what God is capable of doing, not what God hypothetically could or could not do or what should be done.
It's not irrelevant. It's clear to me you're using "irrelevant" as an means of avoiding the discomforting thought that the Christian God you believe in may be false. But more importantly, you're now saying that God is not capable of doing certain things - in this case informing Pete what he will choose prior to his choice. According to the Christians I know, the God they believe in can do anything, and that would include telling Pete what he will choose prior to Pete making that choice.
 
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elopez

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When you make a choice of A instead of B, could you have still chosen B prior to the point in time you chose A? If so, then you had an unimpeded free will choice to choose A or B. If not, then why could you have not chosen B if the choice was available to you?
I'm wondering why you're responding to a post of mine you have already responded to and neglecting the most recent one? Anyway, I understand how you are defining free will. I get it. You can stop repeating yourself now. We are taking infallible foreknowledge into consideration here, so as I choose A and if God has foreseen that choice, I cannot then choose B. Foreknowledge, as in a deterministic factor is what prevents my ability to opt for B. So, deterministic factors is what hinders man's will from being "unimpeded" as you say.

It's not irrelevant. It's clear to me you're using "irrelevant" as an means of avoiding the discomforting thought that the Christian God you believe in may be false. But more importantly, you're now saying that God is not capable of doing certain things - in this case informing Pete what he will choose prior to his choice. According to the Christians I know, the God they believe in can do anything, and that would include telling Pete what he will choose prior to Pete making that choice.
How well can you read? I'm just asking because I've actually never claimed that God is incapable of doing anything, especially informing Pete of his desicion. What I said was God may have that ability but He does not exercise it. So it is very much irrelevant, and I find nothing you have brought up "discomforting," sorry.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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This is precisely the type of answer which prompts my thread "Why are Christians so evasive?"

Who said I'm a Christian?

If from God's perspective, everything has already happened, then does God have the freedom to choose between A or B?

Well, I suppose you could argue that from god's perspective, everything except what god does has already happened. But we're only talking about human free will in this thread.

What do you personally experience when you make a choice between A & B? Let's say you end up choosing B. Prior to you making the choice of B, could you still have chosen A?

Freely? No. If I go back to the instant before I make an A/B choice, by what mechanism can I choose the thing I didn't originally choose?
 
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Cieza

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Who said I'm a Christian?



Well, I suppose you could argue that from god's perspective, everything except what god does has already happened. But we're only talking about human free will in this thread.

Freely? No. If I go back to the instant before I make an A/B choice, by what mechanism can I choose the thing I didn't originally choose?
What I meant is prior to you making an A/B choice in which you choose either A or B, could you still have chosen either A or B? If you couldn't have chosen either A or B, what would have restricted your choice?
 
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What about this? God created the universe and your soul knowing its fate beforehand...

So really, if you believe in Hell or Annihilation of the soul, you have to ask yourself... why, if God is omniscient, would he create souls that he knows are going to be damned or annihilated in the first place?

In the macrocosm, why would God create the Universe the way he did with prescient knowledge that humans would go against his will and that there would be some who were going to end up damned?
 
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bricklayer

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A free-will is a will free to do whatever it can do. It is a free-will.
It is not a secret will.
This is exactly the combination of our free-will choices God chose to create.
Our free-will does not trump God's first choice.

At the core of a belief in a secret-will is a belief in chance.
The idea of chance is the exact opposite of God.

Chance is what man calls the void where the knowledge of God was.

The OP is correct, God is omniscient and omnipotent,
it is our understanding of a free-will that needs to be re-calibrated.
 
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Jpark

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Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?
Pete could potentially choose B if God intervenes.

It is possible for God's will to be obstructed (John 12:40).

Basically, God knows the future but He can change it and He can change His "future" decisions as well.
 
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Cieza

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What about this? God created the universe and your soul knowing its fate beforehand...

So really, if you believe in Hell or Annihilation of the soul, you have to ask yourself... why, if God is omniscient, would he create souls that he knows are going to be damned or annihilated in the first place?

In the macrocosm, why would God create the Universe the way he did with prescient knowledge that humans would go against his will and that there would be some who were going to end up damned?
You ask some good questions which are difficult to answer if there is a God. But if there is not a God, then the answers to your questions are very simple.
 
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Cieza

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A free-will is a will free to do whatever it can do. It is a free-will.
It is not a secret will.
This is exactly the combination of our free-will choices God chose to create.
Our free-will does not trump God's first choice.

At the core of a belief in a secret-will is a belief in chance.
The idea of chance is the exact opposite of God.

Chance is what man calls the void where the knowledge of God was.

The OP is correct, God is omniscient and omnipotent,
it is our understanding of a free-will that needs to be re-calibrated.
When I say free will, I mean the freedom to make an unimpeded free choice between two or more things. That type of free choice is completely incompatible with omniscience & omnipotence.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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What I meant is prior to you making an A/B choice in which you choose either A or B, could you still have chosen either A or B?

No

If you couldn't have chosen either A or B, what would have restricted your choice?

Determinism. Indeterminism. Either. Both.
 
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bricklayer

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When I say free will, I mean the freedom to make an unimpeded free choice between two or more things. That type of free choice is completely incompatible with omniscience & omnipotence.

It is not. A human-free-will is not incompatible with a sovereign God.
A human-secret-will would be.
This creation is exactly the combination of our free-will choices that God chose to create, knowing it completely apart from its existence.
 
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Cieza

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What I meant is prior to you making an A/B choice in which you choose either A or B, could you still have chosen either A or B?
No
Let's say it's day 1 and Pete has not yet made his day 3 A/B choice. He could choose A or he could choose B. If God knows he will choose A, but Pete freely chooses B, then what happens to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?
 
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Cieza

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It is not. A human-free-will is not incompatible with a sovereign God.
A human-secret-will would be.
This creation is exactly the combination of our free-will choices that God chose to create, knowing it completely apart from its existence.

Let's say it's day 1 and Pete has not yet made his day 3 A/B choice. Pete could choose A or he could choose B. If God knows he will choose A, but Pete freely chooses B, then what happens to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?
 
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bricklayer

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Let's say it's day 1 and Pete has not yet made his day 3 A/B choice. Pete could choose A or he could choose B. If God knows he will choose A, but Pete freely chooses B, then what happens to God's foreknowledge that Pete would choose A?

God made His choice. God chose to create the creation that is taking place, exactly this one. Nothing comes to pass apart from God's knowing it completely, apart from (before) its being.
Remember, in the above scenario, Pete's idea is an intellectual perception.
God has intellectual conceptions.
"Pete" cannot have an idea that is not eternally present, in the mind of God.
Humans cannot have intellectual conceptions, we have intellectual perceptions.
One of the most significant differences between our ideas and God's ideas is that we are not the first ones to have our ideas.

God's reasoning ontologically sequences eternally present intellectual conceptions.
Man's reasoning ontologically sequences a chronological sequence of intellectual perceptions.
 
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