Prove to me God exists

[PatrickWhite]

Hey everyone!

I am new to this forum but after reading several threads I am shocked at how many members have very extreme views and will shoot anyone down that does not agree with them (just read a very weird thread on aliens) regardless of whether they can support their views based on the Bible.

And, even then, many members will use the Bible to support their opposing views and beliefs, often by taking texts completely out of context or by really stretching the interpretation of some verses.

I am curious... How would you handle the following situation...

Let's assume my neighbor does not believe in Jesus Christ or God and one day over a cup of coffee he says the following:

"I don't believe in God. Prove to me that God exists."

and

"I don't believe the Bible is relevant anymore. It was written a long time ago, translated and there are I don't know how many different interpretations among many different denominations."

"Why should I believe?"

How would you answer my neighbor? Just curious.

 

[chilehed]

Typically I start with the First Cause argument, then I move into a discussion of the methods by which one can prove the existence of historical persons and events.

 

[PatrickWhite]

Typically I start with the First Cause argument, then I move into a discussion of the methods by which one can prove the existence of historical persons and events.

Sorry, I am not familiar with the "First Cause argument." Do you mind explaining what it's all about?

As for the existence of historical persons and events, how does that help? For example, if memory serves me right, it can be proven that Buddha once lived. So does that mean whatever he said while alive is true? Trust you get my point.

 

[insurchoftruth]

Throughout all the centuries, there have been always true believers, who kept the Word of God in its originality, because they appreciated it, and also feared God.

God cares enough for his Word, to make sure that it is kept in its originality.

The moral law, the ten commandments, are coded on the heart of every man, his conscience. They must be created, from somebody who is moral.

In all of creation, we see expressed a thought, wisdom and purpose, which shows, that there is somebody who thinks – God.

The Bible is a historical book, with recorded historical events.

The miracles described in the Bible, are happening today, in many churches around the world, every day. God does the same miracles described in the Bible today.

A person, can experience the love and the presence of God, as tangibly, as he can experience the electric shock, if he plugs his fingers in the power socket. The Bible says that the love of God, is poured out, in the heart of a born again christian.


Jeremiah 1:12, Isaiah 55:10,11, Acts – 5:38, 39, 1 Corinthians 15:5, 6, 30, 31, Matthew 5:18, 24:35, Romans 1:19, 20, 2:14, 15, Luke 1:1-4, 2:1-3, 16:17, 1 Peter 1:25, Revelation 22:18,19, Matthew 2:6, 4:24,25, 7:16-20, 9:26,35, 11:20-23, 12:33, 12:40-42, 19:4-6, Luke 6:43, 44, Ezra 1:4, Hebrews 2:3,4, Acts 2:22, 14:3, 16:26-30, Mark 16:17, 20, John 2:11,23, 3:2, 4:48, 6:2, 10:25, 38, 11:45, 14:11, 20:30,31, Luke 10:13, 11:30-32,51, 12:1, Deuteronomy 28:64, Ezekiel 36:24, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6-7, 53:1-12, John 7:38, 39, Romans 8:16, John 3:5-8, Romans 5:5, 9:15,17,25,27, 1 John 2:27, 3:9, 24, 4:13, 1 Corinthians 2:4,5, James 5:17,18, 2 Corinthians 12:12[/U][/U]

 

[Soothfish]

Hey everyone!

I am new to this forum but after reading several threads I am shocked at how many members have very extreme views and will shoot anyone down that does not agree with them (just read a very weird thread on aliens) regardless of whether they can support their views based on the Bible.

And, even then, many members will use the Bible to support their opposing views and beliefs, often by taking texts completely out of context or by really stretching the interpretation of some verses.

I am curious... How would you handle the following situation...

Let's assume my neighbor does not believe in Jesus Christ or God and one day over a cup of coffee he says the following:

"I don't believe in God. Prove to me that God exists."

and

"I don't believe the Bible is relevant anymore. It was written a long time ago, translated and there are I don't know how many different interpretations among many different denominations."

"Why should I believe?"

How would you answer my neighbor? Just curious.

How about M-theory, the mathematical proof in superstring physics identifying an unlimited number of universes with unlimited variations in physical properties? There is a 100% chance of a God entity existing somewhere in the multiverse. It is essentially a mathematical proof of God.

The only downside is that physicists have yet to use it for testing/predictive purposes. However, it is still fully consistent with all known science.

This won't convert anyone to full theism but it will most likely convert them to agnosticism. Of course the rabid anti-theists in the scientific community will automatically label you a "deranged right wing extremist" for simply mentioning M-theory. They are so so rational that they'll bite your head off to prove it!

 

[jehoiakim]

1. "I don't believe in God. Prove to me that God exists."

I would say I cannot prove it but I can give you evidence, I cannot prove God exists any more than someone else can prove he doesn't exist, but I think that there is plenty of evidence that suggests he does. If he were more specific in his concerns there are many routes you head down in regards to apologetic... but honestly if they are going to phrase the question exactly like that it might not really be worth it to invest too much time in answering the question. If they are saying prove God exists chances are they have already made up their mind, are no open to anything that doesn't prove their point and are just trying to pick a fight which doesn't do them any good, you any good and it doesn't help those who are asking questions who are looking for a genuine answer. Christ walked away from the pharisees at times because some of them were trying to trap him and he wasn't going to waste his time. I know it goes against a lot of what as Christians we seem to have been told over and over, but I really think sometimes you need to know when to walk away... now if the question was phrased differently and it didn't seem like an aggressive attack I would probably ask where their biggest hang ups were and go through them a step at a time.


I don't believe the Bible is relevant anymore. It was written a long time ago, translated and there are I don't know how many different interpretations among many different denominations."

Again, I would have to reaffirm my first answer. There are things I would want to say, like even though there are a lot of denomations, on the main points a lot of us agree.

But you know his heart really seems too cold right now to accept any words you could say... what I think you really need to do is pray, pray, pray and look for as many opportunities as you can to love him far beyond anything he deserves, loving him beyond what he deserves is eventually going to catch him of guard and eventually he may start to see something you have that he doesn't, that might soften his heart enough for him to be open to what you have to say. Love him, respect him, pray and let God work.

 

[chilehed]

Sorry, I am not familiar with the "First Cause argument." Do you mind explaining what it's all about?

Peter Kreeft gives a pretty good explanation of it starting at about 8:00 into this talk:
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/08_arguments-for-god/peter-kreeft_arguments-for-god.mp3

The other proofs he discusses are classic arguments, but I don't find them to be as compelling as the First Cause argument. WHile you're there I recommend listening to the rest of his talks, he's quite good.

As for the existence of historical persons and events, how does that help? For example, if memory serves me right, it can be proven that Buddha once lived. So does that mean whatever he said while alive is true? Trust you get my point.

There's a standard set of rules which are used to proove whether or not an historical person or event actually existed. In order to figure out whether or not he said what he's claimed to have said, you examine how many texts there are that speak of him, how widely spread out they are, how well they agree, how soon after the event they were written, and so on. And so you eventually might decide that there's enough evidence to demonstrate that something happened that a reasonable person would agree that it did.

And once you've determined what the rules are for figuring that out, and the degree of evidence that you will require to accept the historicity of an event, then you have to stick with those rules. You can't come along later to some other event and say "hey, there's enough evidence here to make me accept that it happened, but it can't have happened because it's not possible", because then you commit a logical fallacy called making a special pleading. It's a kind of question-begging. If you're asking "does God exist", you can't reject evidence merely because it can't have happened unless God exists.

So if you seriously study what the rules are for evaluating evidence, and seriously study all of the evidence for the existance of Jesus and the events of his life, you'll find that the evidence far outweighs the evidence for the existance of almost any other ancient figure. It's not even close.

So since Jesus existed, performed miracles, died and rose form the dead, then I have to conclude that God exists and Jesus is God. And since Jesus is God, then by definition what he said is true.

 

[jehoiakim]

Thanks Chilehed for reminding me how great some of those apologetics arguments are... great points

 

[PatrickWhite]

Throughout all the centuries, there have been always true believers, who kept the Word of God in its originality, because they appreciated it, and also feared God.

God cares enough for his Word, to make sure that it is kept in its originality.

If only it was that simple... Here is an interesting article on the subject of who wrote the Bible: EDIT. I can't post any links because I don't have 50 posts.

The moral law, the ten commandments, are coded on the heart of every man, his conscience. They must be created, from somebody who is moral.

That is a big assumption, in my humble opinion.

In all of creation, we see expressed a thought, wisdom and purpose, which shows, that there is somebody who thinks – God.

I do not understand your statement... We are all capable of thinking.

The Bible is a historical book, with recorded historical events.

Yes... What does that prove?

The miracles described in the Bible, are happening today, in many churches around the world, every day. God does the same miracles described in the Bible today.

Somewhere in the Bible (the exact verse escapes me now) Jesus says that if we believe we will be able to perform the same, and bigger miracles, he did. When was the last time one of us raised a friend from the dead in His name? I was in hospital yesterday visiting my daughter and I didn't see any Christians there healing the sick in His name.

A person, can experience the love and the presence of God, as tangibly, as he can experience the electric shock, if he plugs his fingers in the power socket. The Bible says that the love of God, is poured out, in the heart of a born again christian.

Where in the Bible is that written? There were no power sockets when Jesus was around.

 

[PatrickWhite]

How about M-theory, the mathematical proof in superstring physics identifying an unlimited number of universes with unlimited variations in physical properties? There is a 100% chance of a God entity existing somewhere in the multiverse. It is essentially a mathematical proof of God.

The only downside is that physicists have yet to use it for testing/predictive purposes. However, it is still fully consistent with all known science.

This won't convert anyone to full theism but it will most likely convert them to agnosticism. Of course the rabid anti-theists in the scientific community will automatically label you a "deranged right wing extremist" for simply mentioning M-theory. They are so so rational that they'll bite your head off to prove it!

Interesting! I have been reading up on it but I have not found any articles, including those by Stephen Hawking, saying that M-theory will be able to prove whether or not God exists.

 

[PatrickWhite]

1. "I don't believe in God. Prove to me that God exists."

I would say I cannot prove it but I can give you evidence, I cannot prove God exists any more than someone else can prove he doesn't exist, but I think that there is plenty of evidence that suggests he does. If he were more specific in his concerns there are many routes you head down in regards to apologetic... but honestly if they are going to phrase the question exactly like that it might not really be worth it to invest too much time in answering the question. If they are saying prove God exists chances are they have already made up their mind, are no open to anything that doesn't prove their point and are just trying to pick a fight which doesn't do them any good, you any good and it doesn't help those who are asking questions who are looking for a genuine answer. Christ walked away from the pharisees at times because some of them were trying to trap him and he wasn't going to waste his time. I know it goes against a lot of what as Christians we seem to have been told over and over, but I really think sometimes you need to know when to walk away... now if the question was phrased differently and it didn't seem like an aggressive attack I would probably ask where their biggest hang ups were and go through them a step at a time.


I don't believe the Bible is relevant anymore. It was written a long time ago, translated and there are I don't know how many different interpretations among many different denominations."

Again, I would have to reaffirm my first answer. There are things I would want to say, like even though there are a lot of denomations, on the main points a lot of us agree.

But you know his heart really seems too cold right now to accept any words you could say... what I think you really need to do is pray, pray, pray and look for as many opportunities as you can to love him far beyond anything he deserves, loving him beyond what he deserves is eventually going to catch him of guard and eventually he may start to see something you have that he doesn't, that might soften his heart enough for him to be open to what you have to say. Love him, respect him, pray and let God work.

Thank you for your reply! I appreciate it!

 

[Aibrean]

Even if I could prove God existed, it wouldn't do any good because belief is a result of faith and faith is a result of the Holy Spirit's work after hearing the gospel.

 

[PatrickWhite]

@ chilehed

Thank you for your detailed reply!

I think the problem is that a lot of people would like to believe but they don't know what to believe. They look at the world we are living in and say to themselves "Where is God?"

In the OT there is a fascinating story in 1 Kings Chapter 18 about God and Elijah where God (through Elijah) proved that Baal was not God and should not be worshipped. With all due respect, God had no problem proving to the people beyond any doubt that He is God and that Baal was a fake god.

I can understand why it's so hard for many people to believe in Jesus Christ and God without any proof. Even if I can convince anyone that God worked through Elijah and that the false prophets of Baal were shown to be frauds in front of the people the question still remains... Why does God not offer similar proof today? Why don't we invite some Buddhist monks and some clerics of Islam to a big stadium and perform the same test that Elijah did?

If that idea sounds crazy, why? Because it's OT? What about sending some Christians into Africa and film them multiplying bread and fish for a hungry croud of followers and broadcasting the event worldwide? Jesus said that if we believe we would be able to perform the same miracles, and bigger ones, He did in His name. So, why don't we do it?

 

[Aibrean]

Just because there are miracles doesn't mean people will believe Jesus is behind it.

John 12 "Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him"

Belief comes from faith, not proof.

 

[PatrickWhite]

Just because there are miracles doesn't mean people will believe Jesus is behind it.

John 12 "Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him"

Belief comes from faith, not proof.

Very good answer, in my opinion, thank you! And, I know where you are coming from and fully agree with you. But, how do you convince a non-believer to have faith without any proof?

 

[Aibrean]

You don't. God does the convicting. Salvation is wholly his work.

 

[PatrickWhite]

You don't. God does the convicting. Salvation is wholly his work.

Good answer, thank you!

 

[razeontherock]

Whole lots of agreeing happening in this thread! Our OP can find lots of atheists wanting "proof God exists," right here on CF.

To follow up on the previous post:

"because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. (John 16:7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."

And so it is!

 

[PatrickWhite]

@ razeontherock

I am sorry, maybe I am having a blank moment, but I don't understand what point you are making

 

[razeontherock]

Along w/ post #16, it is the Holy Spirit that does the convincing.